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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hillary Clinton-Birth Certificate sourced?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 728

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My instincts agree with what a lot of you people are saying. Also I like Frank Clifford, I have some of his books and he is amazing for getting back to you immediately with knowledgeable answers if you ask him questions. I have never known him to hold back information. I think if Frank was the person with access to Hillary Clinton's birth certificate he would just release the chart immediately to the astrological community, he doesn't seem the type of person to hog information.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1245
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc wrote:
Quote:
According to Marc Penfield, the Hillary Clinton data and sources will be published in the next ISAR online newsletter (probably Monday, October 3rd)

I receive that newsletter, and will post a quote here as soon as the newsletter comes into my mailbox. I wouldn't be too hard on Marc. He's an elder and deserves respect. He's almost 74 years old now, and (speaking from experience) sometimes older minds run in strange channels. Thinking processes age along with everything else. I was raised with the Asian attitude: Age deserves respect no matter how bizarre a person's behavior may be.

I continue to be amazed at the elderly years of our US presidential candidates this year. How many of Donald Trump's extreme comments are due to his age? Bernie Sanders is several years over 70, Donald Trump just turned 70, and Hillary will turn 70 next year. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Tim Kaine assuming presidential duties sometime during Hillary's term (health problems or simply exhaustion?), assuming she will be elected.
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Patrick Watson



Joined: 24 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be completely clear - Like everyone else I just want this issue to be resolved so we can work with accurate data. I called Marc Penfield kind of a jerk for wanting to hold on to a purportedly verified time for a couple more weeks from the public and his fellow panelists. Now that he has decided to disclose early, I rescind my insult. If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.

The reason I went as far as I did to call out this behavior is because this is so important to the global community of astrologers. That's why I went out and got the birth times of the vice presidential candidates. That's why I published them as soon as I got them. That's why this news with Marc bothered me so much.

As far as my stake in it - I am absolutely prepared to accept if my attempt at deciding between 8 am or 8 pm is wrong. I decided that the moment I took a position on it. If a verified birth time proves I am wrong, I will embrace it, and it will be a smudge on what reputation I have.

As it is - what credible evidence we have seems to stack up in favor of 8 pm - with Hillary's most recent quotes being consistently 8 pm, and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time. There are other astrologers like Nick Dagan Best who have plausible astrological rationales for 8 pm as well.

There will soon be an article appearing in the Wall Street Journal about Hillary's birth time - hopefully it will give Mrs. Clinton a nudge toward releasing her birth certificate, but she probably won't.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Watson wrote:
Quote:
As it is - what credible evidence we have seems to stack up in favor of 8 pm - with Hillary's most recent quotes being consistently 8 pm, and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time. There are other astrologers like Nick Dagan Best who have plausible astrological rationales for 8 pm as well.

Is there a link to this information? This is the first I've heard of recent quotes for 8 PM (which is the time I have used) and the quote from Lynn Sweet.
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Patrick Watson



Joined: 24 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan asked her at a 'Hard Choices' book signing event a couple of years ago. She said "I think...it was 8 pm".
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Patrick Watson



Joined: 24 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, she has responded differently in the past. She seemed to emphasize "I think", as in perhaps she's not quite sure. We. Need. The. Birth. Certificate.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Watson wrote:
Quote:
...and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time.

Where/when did this come from? Who is Lynn Sweet? I'm only trying to get the facts, not trying to be challenging since I like the PM time myself, at least for the time being.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Watson wrote:
Quote:
If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.


I got back in touch with Zayin Cohen. He said as you annoyed him probing for a copy of the birth certificate and the official he got it from he decided to ''get rid of you'' by giving you an incorrect time. Hence he states the 01.18am time you were given by is not correct. He informs me he is working with the 02.08am time which is correct. His astrological FB posts support that.

Its obviously a bizarre thing to do. Why not ''get rid of you'' with the correct data?

However, it will be interesting to see what time Penfield comes up with.

If its 02.08am it will corroborate what Zayin Cohen is saying. If its 02.18am I will still have my doubts. Still, considering his reputation why would he risk ruining that with false data?

Mark
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently lean toward a time shortly after 8 am with Scorpio rising as fitting the chronology better than any other I've seen so far. I haven't checked all possible combinations for that day, but the 2:08 am time is achrematistikos for the zodiacal releasing method.
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Curtis Manwaring
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoidsoft wrote:
Quote:
I currently lean toward a time shortly after 8 am with Scorpio rising as fitting the chronology better than any other I've seen so far. I haven't checked all possible combinations for that day, but the 2:08 am time is achrematistikos for the zodiacal releasing method.


Hi Curtis,

Please keep in mind this is not an exclusively traditional forum. People come here with all kinds of approaches. Moreover, I think even a majority of traditional astrologers would find your terminology baffling.

If you are going to use Greek words like ''achrematistikos'' please explain such terminology in plain English.

Thanks

Mark
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the Wall Street Journal article Patrick Watson referred to which discusses the astrology of both Presidential candidates charts and the confusion over Clinton's exact time of birth. As mainstream media coverage of astrology goes this isn't bad.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/whos-demanding-to-see-hillary-clintons-birth-certificate-baffled-astrologers-1475167293

Mark
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark. Whether accidentally or on purpose by the Wall Street Journal, the font of the article was too light to read on my screen. But in "print preview" mode the article and pictures were sharp and clear.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
If you are going to use Greek words like ''achrematistikos'' please explain such terminology in plain English.


"Chrematistikos" in Greek means "busy" or "telling". When an "a" is placed in front as a prefix, it negates the meaning (turns into the opposite). Otherwise, "not busy" and "not telling". Valens says that when some methods aren't telling (achrematistikos) that one falls back on other methods. The reason why these two meanings are linked is because a static (for lack of a better word) image in the sky doesn't say much, but a busy one says more.
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Curtis Manwaring
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The astrology podcast with Chris Brennan and Patrick Watson. This edition looks at the controversy over Hillary's Clinton's chart.
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2016/09/29/2016-presidential-election-birth-data-issues/
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 938
Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When in doubt.... I just googled "Illinois birth certificates" and came up with the following web page:

http://www.idph.state.il.us/vitalrecords/births/Pages/default.htm

It notes that Illinois birth certificates are available only to the named individual, or to a child's parents or guardian. This leaves the question of how an astrologer could have obtained a valid Illinois birth certificate.

Click on types of certificates available, and we find:

Quote:
For $10 for the first copy and $2 for each additional copy of the same certificate requested at the same time, you will obtain a birth certificate with the following items: child’s name, date of birth, sex, place of birth (city, county, state), mother/co-parent’s maiden name, mother/co-parent’s place of birth (state/country), mother/co-parent’s age, father/co-parent’s name, father/co-parent’s place of birth (state/country), father/co-parent’s age, file date, date issued, and, state file number.

For $15 for the first copy and $2 for each additional copy of the same certificate requested at the same time, you will obtain a birth certificate with information collected at the time of your birth (information has varied throughout the years).


The normal birth certificate duplicate copy issued today does not include time of birth. You can request a copy of the certificate as-issued on your birth date. Jurisdictions sometimes change what information they collect. Does anyone know whether Illinois collected birth times in 1947 or not?
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