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Hillary Clinton-Birth Certificate sourced?
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Also, in 1947 Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28, whereas today the time doesn't change until November 6.

Let's hope Clinton's to-be-revealed secretive birth time is in standard time.
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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 351
Location: Colorado, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread, I can't cite chapter and verse because it's been so long, but back in the day when we all used Doris Chase Doane's Time Zone Atlas (and later, the vastly improved ACS compendiums), I remember reading that Indiana and Illinois presented the most confusing pictures of any of the states.

For example, even though CDT might have been in effect statewide, times were officially recorded on medical records in CST notation - and there is no way to know which hospitals observed that peculiar requirement. As if that weren't bad enough, towns and counties close to state borders were "no man's lands", where even the state was indeterminate!

One seeks solace in Geoffrey Cornelius' view on the matter, i.e. time of birth is a Ptolemaic distinction, and "first breath" charts are not necessarily the most telling. It's enough to make one tear one's hair.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1211
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Often there is an hour/minute listed on the hospital record of birth at the time a child is born, but the time isn't carried over to the birth certificate. A hospital record would probably be more accurate than a certified copy of a birth certificate. Today parents have copies of both, but in the 1940s I doubt there were the same standards for paperwork and what was given to parents. Copying documents was much more difficult than it is today.
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Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4955
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
It notes that Illinois birth certificates are available only to the named individual, or to a child's parents or guardian. This leaves the question of how an astrologer could have obtained a valid Illinois birth certificate.


It remains to be seen whether Marc Penfield has obtained a scan of the birth certificate or whether he is just going to reveal the birth time his contact sourced for him.

If you go back to the ISAR press release there is no actual mention of the birth certificate being produced:

Quote:
According to astrologer Marc Penfield, both the Cook County and State of Illinois record divisions last week verified a time of birth as recorded for Hillary Rodham that took place on October 26, 1947.


Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know she was born at edgewater hospital for that matter so was john wayne gacy ... the hospital is being torn down -- i made futile attempts to locate hospital records, and checked out the local methodist churches for baptismal records ... nada.

There was a couple, a mother and son pair a tom & thelma , who mined cook county birth data which is why those laws were instated ... however, i did acquire richard m daley's birth certificate through a request in the old Mercury Hour.
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Patrick Watson



Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Patrick Watson wrote:
Quote:
If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.


I got back in touch with Zayin Cohen. He said as you annoyed him probing for a copy of the birth certificate and the official he got it from he decided to ''get rid of you'' by giving you an incorrect time. Hence he states the 01.18am time you were given by is not correct. He informs me he is working with the 02.08am time which is correct. His astrological FB posts support that.

Its obviously a bizarre thing to do. Why not ''get rid of you'' with the correct data?

However, it will be interesting to see what time Penfield comes up with.

If its 02.08am it will corroborate what Zayin Cohen is saying. If its 02.18am I will still have my doubts. Still, considering his reputation why would he risk ruining that with false data?

Mark


That is positively absurd! He gave me 1:18 am before I asked him if I could see it. It was literally the first thing he said. I have the chatlog to back it up.

The only reason I'd ever publicly disclose a private conversation is to expose dishonesty regarding a matter of public interest, which I want to do here now. It's clear he only got annoyed, and rather petty I might add, once I asked about proof of the certificate.

You can read the conversation here which I've captured with screenshots, to prove that I haven't edited anything: http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ZayinCohenconversation.jpg

What do you think?
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, I read the conversation, and so far as I can determine, whoever obtained Hillary Rodham's birth certificate broke the law if it was the same then as it is today.

This doesn't mean the to-be-revealed chart is incorrect, but if the law was broken to obtain it, this doesn't reflect well on astrologers.
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 141

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seemed to be another person besides Zayin who claimed to have gained the 2:18 time from records. But the following just muddies the waters as it refutes Cohen's claim of 2:08 being the actual time given by records (posted earlier by Mark -"However, I corresponded with Zayin Cohen a few weeks ago. Zayin Cohen then claimed the time he had actually found was 02.08am not 02.18am.".
***********************************
"re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
« Reply #42 - on: 04.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] »
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"Dawn: ADB does not have the correct birth time for her - so your analysis is incorrect. She has 14 Virgo rising based upon information from a contact in Illinois public records department."
***********************************
re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
« Reply #46 - on: 05.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] »
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"No, Wayne Penner, Cassandra is Cassandra. I have relatives in Chicago and one of them has a contact in Vital Records who I asked to pull the information for me. I did not feel that what was reflected here was correct. For obvious reasons, the person prefers to remain anonymous, but the information is correct.

Frankly, I'm surprised that someone else came up with the same data that I did."
**********************************
re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
« Reply #53 - on: 05.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] »
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"Also, there had been a post by Zayin to the same effect as mine just prior to yours and I wanted to support his information with what I had.

Paula Gassman, I doubt I will be able to secure any more certifiable documentation - that my contact agreed to provide any information at all was pushing it - I've been working on this for a very long time and the time of 2:18AM was all I could get."
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 141

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
There was a couple, a mother and son pair a tom & thelma , who mined cook county birth data which is why those laws were instated ... however, i did acquire richard m daley's birth certificate through a request in the old Mercury Hour.


I met Thelma and Tom in the 70's when they lived in Rockford for a short time. Tom was an adopted son. It was Thelma who taught me how to calculate risings and settings by hand, during which process I spotted a math shortcut that saves several steps.

They were avid data searchers.

Regarding the release of the news letter with Penfield's birth data and source for HRC on the 3rd the transiting Saturn/Pluto midpoint will be on Zayin's secondary progressed IC (Q2 Mean Quotidian angles) for his place of birth on that day - bad news for 2:08? 2:18? Both?!
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Birgit



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Germany

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is illegal having the BC in my opinion it would be also illegal to publish "Yes, I have it (Mossad, Attorny:???: ) but I can't show the document, that would be illegal".
Or maybe the laws in his country are very different to Germany.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 934
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know whether the state of Illinois would actually prosecute someone who obtains a birth certificate under false pretenses, but I did a little sleuthing and believe it would be a Class 4 Felony, which can carry some stiff punishments, depending upon what the judge would decide at sentencing.

The website I posted above for the Illinois Department of Public Health, Office of Vital Records was clear that their birth certificates are not public records. This is elaborated upon in the law on the state law vital statistics.

Illinois state laws are on line. I looked up the one on vital records.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1573&ChapAct=4
The restrictions on personal access are in secs. 24 and 25.

Only the named individual or a child's parent or guardian can apply for a birth certificate copy today according to the website. The law itself allows exceptions for valid uses, such as those required for public health measures, a court order, inheritance rights, or genealogical research on births older than 75 years. Sec. 25 (11) specifies that only the kinds of applicants specifically named in the act may have access to birth certificates.

The laws may have been different decades ago. Someone would have to contact the Department to find out when Clinton's alleged birth certificate was obtained; and even then, I don't know if birth times were recorded in 1947.

Sec. 24 (1) reads:

Quote:
It is unlawful for any custodian [employee] to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in, vital records, or to copy or permit to be copied, all or part of any such record except as authorized by this Act or regulations adopted pursuant thereto.


This doesn't seem like an opening for astrology, as most of the itemized acceptable purposes are for determining paternity, pensions, exposure to toxic materials, and things of this nature.

And here's the kicker, in sec. 27:

Quote:
(f) Any person who willfully and knowingly furnishes a certificate of birth, or certified copy of a record of birth with the intention that it be used by a person or persons other than those recited in Section 25(4) of this Act is guilty of a Class 4 felony.


According to this site, conviction of a Class 4 Felony can be punished by 1-3 years in jail, up to 30 months probation, or a fine of up to $25,000.

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/illinois-class-4-felony-f5e27b4b327aa370#

Moreover, nowhere in the linked materials is it mentioned that an Illinois birth certificate would include the time of birth.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick update: I've been trying to find out when the Illinois Vital Records Act was passed; as I think this has bearing on the integrity of claims to have HRC's birth time. No luck: hey, I'm not a legal scholar. But I did find this amendment from 2000 which tightens and clarifies who may access birth certificates. http://www.nfimr.org/site/assets/docs/IL.pdf

There still is no way that an astrological use could be justified. So a lot hinges on exactly when the purloined (??) birth time information was obtained.

There have been some other amendments to the law that do not concern astrology.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in about 6 years a genealogist may be able to solve the mystery assuming birth times are recorded on Illinois birth certificates. If memory serves, Illinois required birth times to be recorded in standard time (I think Pennsylvania had a similar law for a time)? Not sure when this law went into effect if this was indeed the case.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
So in about 6 years a genealogist may be able to solve the mystery assuming birth times are recorded on Illinois birth certificates. If memory serves, Illinois required birth times to be recorded in standard time (I think Pennsylvania had a similar law for a time)? Not sure when this law went into effect if this was indeed the case.


Curtis, if you Google Illinois Daylight Savings Time for a given birth year, hopefully a site will come up indicating when it went on and off. I found this for 1947, Clinton's birth year.

Mark:

Re: my reading of the Illinois Vital Records Act and its year 2000 amendments, I wonder if Marc Penfield has considered that his publicizing his conversation on how he obtained the 2:18 am birth time via YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ffCemlJ7V0, and the ISAR meeting could get the Vital Records office clerk fired if word got back to her supervisors about what she had done.

It's one thing for him to break the law, but another thing for a state employee to do so.

Conversely, he has no way to verify whether or not she misled him or was truthful with him.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 October 2016, 11:00 PM California time

I just watched an ISAR video in which Ray Merriman and Shelley Ackerman interviewed Marc Penfield regarding Hillary Clinton's birth time. The alleged time is 2:18 AM. This information was obtained via a phone conversation with a person in a records office, but the time was not actually stated by the person in that office. According to Marc, a "reporter's technique" was used in which no answer is given by the records office if a fact stated by a reporter is correct. The office can say "no" if a fact is incorrect. Marc asked about different birth times, and no reply was given for the 2:18 AM time. Anyone can watch the video and come to their own conclusions about this time and how it was obtained.

The text copy of Marc's statement may be in the ISAR newsletter which hasn't arrived in my email box yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ffCemlJ7V0 (13 minutes)
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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