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Hillary Clinton-Birth Certificate sourced?
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:10 am    Post subject: Hillary Clinton-Birth Certificate sourced? Reply with quote

Breaking news. Its being reported by ISAR that the astrological researcher Marc Penfield has managed to source a copy of Hillary Clinton's birth chart!

And he states the birth time is not around the commonly used 08.00am or 8pm time!

All will be revealed at his talk at the ISAR conference in mid October.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/isar-astrology/breaking-news-hillary-clintons-birth-time-has-been-found/1255916947815431

I must confess this news gave me a chuckle. I have long been agnostic about the actual birth time for Clinton.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:21 am; edited 6 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks mark!

But wait - my time must be right, or i am wrong!!! I can't be wrong cause i did all those wrectification exercises right, lol..

I am curious if penfield held to a certain time for clinton prior to his ''discovery''..

Somehow I don't trust this pr stunt.. penfield a scorpio with mercury pluto square.. I guess that explains why he is going for as much exposure as possible here as opposed to releasing the discovery to the astro community without strings attached... that is how I see this.. pr stunt.. I guess some astrologers will see it differently then me.. everything is about money? i never got that memo growing up!

All will be revealed on fb too, lol... until it isn't.. zuckenberg to the rescue..
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can easily be the case that the 8 am and 8 pm times are wrong. Many times astrologers are convinced of a pattern that they are seeing but attribute "hits" to the wrong material causes (because there are many).

However, this announcement strikes me as a stunt. We'll have to wait and see what he says, but I'd be very careful about any birth time put forth at this time. Hillary is reportedly very private and most politicians are quite aware of astrologers (as a source of political liability) so I wouldn't be surprised if her campaign put out a "Yasser Arafat" kind of solution to confuse astrologers and throw them off track.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are strong rumours in the astrological community that Marc Penfield's time he claims to have sourced is 02.18am. This certainly has a ring of deja vu about it. Zayin Cohen was originally reported as giving a time of 02.18am back in 2005 and ADB recorded this. He claimed to have accessed Hillary Clinton's time of birth through a contact in the Chicago Records Office who sourced her birth certificate for him. It was then reported on astrology groups like the Noel Tyl site.

However, I corresponded with Zayin Cohen a few weeks ago. Zayin Cohen then claimed the time he had actually found was 02.08am not 02.18am. He said it was incorrectly reported on ADB and elsewhere. However, with the death of Louis Rodden it never got resolved. Like Marc Penfield, Zayin Cohen claimed to have an anonymous source in the Chicago Public Records office. He has long said he cannot give out the certificate or details of the official as this is illegal.

But I have been in contact with Patrick Watson today and he showed me evidence of a FB conversation with Zayin Cohen back in August when he was informed by Zayin Cohen that the right time was actually 01.18am not 02.18am. I am trying not to throw out accusations here but Zayin Cohen is clearly giving out conflicting times. So was the time on the birth certificate always really 02.18am which has been corroborated by Marc Penfield? In which case why is Zayin Cohen now altering his time? Did Marc Penfield really source this directly or is he just using the time that was widely attributed to Zayin Cohen earlier which he now himself disputes? Or maybe Zayin Cohen is playing games with us and the time was always 02.18am. Presumably, like Zayin Cohen , Marc Penfield will not be able to produce a scan of the birth certificate for legal reasons.

I honestly dont know what to think here but something is a bit fishy somewhere.

Still, Marc Penfield is a respected researcher and has done a lot of good work. Especially, in mundane astrology. I have many of his books. He has also sourced a lot of charts for the founding of numerous cities that are very hard to find anywhere else. So I dont want to casually, impune his reputation.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good comments mark - as always.. thanks for saying all that..

marc penfield has done good work, and i didn't mean to take away from it.. i was hoping you would come and give me a mild rebuke, lol... but i go with my first impressions reading this and do feel something fishy about all this and unfortunately view it as some pr stunt.. i would like to be proven wrong, but being a cynical kinda guy - i shoot first and ask questions later, lol.. i look forward to the grand poobahs official announcement..
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
.. but i go with my first impressions reading this and do feel something fishy about all this and unfortunately view it as some pr stunt.. i would like to be proven wrong, but being a cynical kinda guy - i shoot first and ask questions later, lol.. i look forward to the grand poobahs official announcement..


Yes. Your by no means alone alone thinking like that James. Many astrologers who have worked on their pet rectifications after researching Clinton's life are finding this hard to accept.

Other astrologers are annoyed Penfield has delayed release of the data until his ISAR Conference talk in mid October. That annoyance includes some of the other ISAR panelists who are sitting on panels predicting the result! I know one who is talking of dropping out unless he is provided with Penfield's time beforehand. Penfield has in all probability been sitting on this data for months at least. It seems rather selfish to keep such data to yourself in a Presidential election year when the whole astrological community are seeking to predict the outcome.

Others have concerns about the integrity of Penfield himself. Patrick Watson has posted on a political astrology group that he doesn't necessarily trust Marc Penfield on this. Theodore White has has said he doesn't trust Penfield and he is not reliable. But then White dogmatically insists the only possible rectification is 08.06.48 am!

Frank Clifford the internationally recognised data collector has also sounded a note of caution about this. He sent the following message to Wade Caves which was put up on a political astrology FB group by him:



Like Frank Clifford I am trying not to leap to speedy conclusions here but it does seems a bit like grandstanding by Penfield delaying this. On the other hand if its true Penfield has sourced the right time maybe he deserves his day in the Sun. He has presumably had to work hard on this. I mean if you had an astro data cliffhanger like this wouldn't you milk it a bit? Penfield's talk at ISAR will no doubt be standing room only!

As Penfield himself has taken up a lot of attention its worth studying his chart. He is an uber Scorpio who hails from Clinton's home city of Chicago:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Penfield,_Marc

Mark
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
However, I corresponded with Zayin Cohen a few weeks ago. Zayin Cohen then claimed the time he had actually found was 02.08am not 02.18am.


I get it. So a dyslexic has been reporting on these times. From this we're supposed to guess that the actual time is 8:12 (am or pm), 12:08, 1:28, etc...
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check my latest post above Curtis. But yes I know its very frustrating dealing with people like this.

Mark
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming for the moment that Marc Penfield has somehow obtained a valid birth time for Hillary Clinton, this will support the truth of one accusation against astrologers who have used various other times: That they can make an incorrect birth chart "work" just fine.

I have never seriously considered the 2:08 or 2:18 AM time for Hillary, but for the first presidential debate this evening (9:00 PM EDT, Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY (Nassau County), there are important transits to the 2:08/2:18 chart: Rahu and Mercury straddle the ascendant and Saturn on the IC/Nadir are two of them. For 2:18 Mercury is only a degree beneath the ascendant. These birth times give an almost square chart with the MC only 2-3 degrees from the NG/zenith point.

The Ascendant of the 9:00 PM debate chart is square Donald Trump's Mars by only three minutes (sidereal) and on his natal MC. This same ascendant is conjunct Hillary's natal Rahu/North Node.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for all the additional comments..

i am going to saskatchewan for a week on thursday - where lois rodden was born!!

one of the first things i did was look at marc penfields chart. what i first noticed is the focus on saturn at present via the transit of saturn and the nodal axis.. saturn in his chart rules the 8th/9th houses, so he is in a bit of a pickle as i see it, just based on reading this thread! probably didn't help that he made this announcement with mars right on his descendant either and reinforced with mars square his ascendant in the 2015 solar return chart..

profection year is ruled by the moon, which is in scorpio in his natal chart and ruling the 2nd.. natal moon applies to jupiter in cancer which softens this as i see it, but really does put the emphasis on money like i was suggesting earlier.. must be tough trying to be an astrologer and making a livelihood at astrology, which is what i assume he does.. in the solar return chart for 2015, aside from the ascendant landing in capricorn - the 8th sign to his gemini rising, i note the very close square of moon to pluto at 13 libra/cap - right where transiting mars is on october 16th..

i am sure it will be a fun time for him at that convention when he makes the announcement on the 16th! transiting moon will be walking thru early taurus at some point right into his mercury/pluto square, which also includes mars too.. fun times, lol.. nothing like having a hornets nest of astrologers on your case!! looking at the chart to costa mesa for 5pm time, moon is at 5 taurus basically on his mars.. i gather he is a take charge kinda guy with all those scorpio planets, mars included, even with gemini rising..

well that was fun..
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, this announcement strikes me as a stunt


Me too. If we think back to 2008, the same thing happened regarding Barak Obama's birth time and when the genuine birth certificate was released this "secret source" birth time was off by about 6 hours.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc Penfield's decision to withhold the data he has sourced until his talk at the ISAR Conference on October 16th has generated quite a lot of irritation amongst astrologers.

I understand he may not be releasing it beforehand to other ISAR panelists predicting the Presidential election with him either. This puts them in an a very awkward position as most panelists making a prediction are relying on natal data.

Its also frustrating some astrologers that Penfield may have been holding on to this data for some time in a Presidential Election year.

Patrick Watson, an English born, American astrologer is a specialist in political astrology and has written a blog post very critical of Penfield:

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/2016/09/27/open-letter-marc-penfield-is-kind-of-being-a-jerk-right-now/

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I can see why Patrick Watson might feel that way as he wrote a fairly long article a few months ago that you shared here at skyscript, researching the 2 birth times - 8 am/pm and favoured the 8am time... everything he is saying I relate to, but I think some of it is coming out of the possibility Penfields data (valid or not) turning patricks rectification into another wrecktification.. hey - is he from the school of noel tyl? LOLOL...

Either way folks are putting the kibosh on Penfield for good reason..

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/2015/07/23/hillary-clintons-real-birth-time/

I would just like to add how hard it is to rectify a chart, but the first requirement is a detachment that I don't pick up in some astrologers who think they are capable of doing this.. I am not referring to patrick here, but speaking generally on the process of what has always been considered the hardest skill to master - rectification... this is why i jokingly refer to most of it and them as wrecktifications.. without a detached and neutral mind - a rare quality in itself - it is close to impossible..
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Marc Penfield, the Hillary Clinton data and sources will be published in the next ISAR online newsletter (probably Monday, October 3rd)

Mark
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Vicki



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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever data Marc Penfield releases and whenever he does, I will not believe him or anyone else for that matter.
Times haven’t changed since the days of Vettius Valens when he complained that fellow astrologers jealously guarded astrological lore, shrouded in mystery.
A sort of astrological oneupmanship.

I am very suspicious and echo Zoidsoft’s comments. Someone may well have an interest in disseminating disinformation about Hillary Clinton’s birth time.

As for rectification, James is right about many astrologers’ inability to be detached and impartial. It is possible to prove anything you want to set out to prove – scientists do it all the time ! Rectification is a very inexact process.

We will never know the truth about Hillary Clinton’s birth time this side of paradise and that goes for anyone’s chart – (leastways not to the exact minute).

“And what you do not know is the only thing you know”
T.S.Eliot “East Coker”
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