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Hillary Clinton-Birth Certificate sourced?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the predictive methods I use, particularly the Solar Return and election Ennead (these are the same chart for Hillary Clinton), her victory seems obvious for the 8:01 PM time. I wouldn't know what to make of this chart for the 2:18 time. In some ways this 2016 solar return looks bad enough to possibly suggest that Hillary wouldn't even finish out the solar return year.

I remain very puzzled.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Curtis, if you Google Illinois Daylight Savings Time for a given birth year, hopefully a site will come up indicating when it went on and off. I found this for 1947, Clinton's birth year.


I was referring specifically to a regulation that required standard time recordings (regardless of whether daylight savings was in effect). When I wrote access to the Olson TZ database in 2010 (for the Terran Atlas), I was finding that just knowing the time standard wasn't enough, you also had to know whether the area followed the official rules or not which more frequently than you would expect, was not the case. For instance in my area there's a large population of Amish farmers who pay no attention to daylight savings time.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Watson wrote:
You can read the conversation here which I've captured with screenshots, to prove that I haven't edited anything: http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ZayinCohenconversation.jpg

What do you think?


I think the evidence shows that Patrick acted very appropriately and Zayin Cohen has not. With regards to the Marc Penn time, it's interesting but I'm pretty sure Lois Rodden would turn in her grave if this was rated anything other than dirty data - without any way to verify the information I don't think it should carry more weight than any of the other reported times.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Patrick Watson wrote:
You can read the conversation here which I've captured with screenshots, to prove that I haven't edited anything: http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ZayinCohenconversation.jpg

What do you think?


I think the evidence shows that Patrick acted very appropriately and Zayin Cohen has not. With regards to the Marc Penn time, it's interesting but I'm pretty sure Lois Rodden would turn in her grave if this was rated anything other than dirty data - without any way to verify the information I don't think it should carry more weight than any of the other reported times.


i agree and thanks patrick for the additional insight into present day zayin.. zayin=crazy.. only 2 (of the easy) letters difference.. however it seems more then just zayin is responsible for this data in the public domain, as unique astrology / bob - points out in his posts on page 3 of this thread... either way, it would have to be classified as dirty data and there will be no way it ever changes from dd until such time as hillary decides differently..

score minus one for marc penfields publicity stunt..
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Also, in 1947 Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28, whereas today the time doesn't change until November 6.

Let's hope Clinton's to-be-revealed secretive birth time is in standard time.


Curtis, does this answer your question?
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the request of Patrick Watson I am posting up my FB correspondence with Zayin Cohen. I have decided to withhold some of our discussion which was private and had no relevance to the Hillary Clinton data issue. However, all his comments regarding the Clinton data issue are included below.

Firstly, my initial question to Zayin Cohen on FB and his reply. (10th September 2016)

Secondly, my follow up question to Zayin Cohen and his reply when I discovered he had earlier related quite different times to Patrick Watson! (29th september 2016)

Mark Cullen wrote (Sept 10th 2016)

Quote:
Hi Zayin, I am a UK astrologer based in Scotland, specialising in political astrology. I have been collecting predictions on the forthcoming US Presidential election and wondered if you had set out your views in an article or blog piece? I was particularly interested in your views with your use of the 02.18am chart for Clinton. Best wishes, Mark


Reply from Zayin Cohen:

Quote:
Mark great to meet you and that 2:18 am is a typo at Astrodatabank.com it's 2.08 am which makes Virgo rising.which I can see very easy.I see her winning but it will be close.


Mark Cullen wrote: (sept 10th 2016)

Quote:
I dont suppose you can ever source your data due to the way you got it? (edited)


Zayin Cohen replied: (10th September 2016)

Quote:
Yes that is what was posted like 10 years at astrodatabank.com when Loris Rodden was alive and it's never been corrected. (I have removed Zayin Cohen's discussion on the chart as a predictor for the election outcome)

I am doing to get a blog back up soon and feel free to post 2:08 am.


Mark Cullen wrote: (Wed Sept 28th 2016)

Quote:
Hi Zayin,

I don’t mean to be a pest but there is a bit of confusion that has cropped up on the chart time for Clinton you sourced. As you will recall you told me the actual time you sourced for Clinton’s birth certificate is 02.08am (and that the widely reported 02.18am time attributed to you by ADB is wrong). However, Patrick Watson has posted on a political astrology forum that you gave him a time of 01.18am.

So I am a bit confused. You have probably heard Marc Penfield has claimed to have sourced the BC himself from a contact at the Chicago records. I am assuming he will be citing the same time as you. But he isn’t giving his talk at the ISAR conference on this until October 16th.

I would like to do some work on Clinton’s chart asap so I would appreciate if you could clear up this confusion.

Thanks a lot

Mark


Zayin Cohen (Sept 29th 2016)
Quote:
Mark you are no pest,I am a stern Texan and Patrick unlike you is a pest .He gave me a differcult about Clinton.So I gave that time to to get rid of him and she was so much an my back that she is not Virgo Rising that I did what I felt I needed to get him off my back He is and was not a gentleman like you are.So I let me believe she's Leo rising since he was so damn convinced any then I block.I have studied Astrology for 47 years. Take care mate Zayin ..



Mark Cullen wrote: Wed Sept 29th 2016
Quote:

Thanks Zayin, The only problem is the 01.18am you gave him to throw him off is actually still in Virgo! Anyway, I will work with the 02.08am and start seeing what I come up with. Take care, Mark


So according to Zayin Cohen he deliberately gave out false data to Patrick Watson. His reasons dont make any sense when you examine the transcript of what Patrick Watson actually said. Giving out false data like this is really reprehensible and in my view completely undermines the credibility of Zayin Cohen as a source.

Moreover, once a person has intentionally deceived one astrologer why not another? Its quite possible the 02.18am time originally recorded by ADB was correct and the 02.08am time Zayin is using is a rectification.

If Marc Penfield wants to cite Zayin Cohen to corroborate his birth time he could not have chosen a less reliable back up.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark. Curioser and curioser. Makes me suspect that Clinton does have that 12th house stuff going on in Scorpio. Confused
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
waybread wrote:
I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Also, in 1947 Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28, whereas today the time doesn't change until November 6.

Let's hope Clinton's to-be-revealed secretive birth time is in standard time.


Curtis, does this answer your question?


It wasn't really a question. I was saying that some states require recording times in standard time regardless of what time was showing on the wall (daylight or standard). So if it's on the birth certificate one needs to take this into account if the law was in effect. I don't know if DST was in effect in Illinois on Oct 26, 1947.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for your last commentary with additional insights into zayin.. i picked that all up from the time you told us he was giving 208am - he is either lying or trying to throw folks off - probably because he's crazy..

but lets forget about zayin for a moment and focus on bob/unique astrologys posts from sat. oct 1st and the info shared from cassandra.. that is not as easily dismissed and brings us back to the 218am time... what thoughts if any do you or others have regarding this info revealed by unique astrology's posts?? zayin=cassandra?
thanks
james

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
....but lets forget about zayin for a moment and focus on bob/unique astrologys posts from sat. oct 1st and the info shared from cassandra.. that is not as easily dismissed and brings us back to the 218am time... what thoughts if any do you or others have regarding this info revealed by unique astrology's posts?? zayin=cassandra?
thanks
james


I assumed Cassandra was the data collector from Cook County called Thelma referred to by Unique-Astrology. The context of the post seems to be after the announcement of the Zayin Cohen time of 02.18am? I have sent a pm to Unique_Astrology asking him about this and raising a quite separate question with him.

If your reading this Unique_Astrology please post again to offer some clarification. In particular do you have a surname for the data collectors Thelma and Tom you referred to?

Thanks

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theresa

thanks for the youtube interview link with marc penfield, shelly ackerman and bill merriman..

it seems to me if marc penfield did what he said, there is also someone in the records office that is playing along with the 218am time based on a popular trick for skirting THE LAW... so that is 3 strikes coming from zayin, cassandra, and the person marc penfield spoke with anonymously.. it still doesn't change the fact we don't have a birth record in hand and are remain stuck with DD..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
...so that is 3 strikes coming from zayin, cassandra, and the person marc penfield spoke with anonymously.. it still doesn't change the fact we don't have a birth record in hand and are remain stuck with DD..

Right. As astrologers all we can do (if we have the time) is check out past events in Hillary's life for 2:18 AM with whatever techniques we've found to be effective. Looking at sidereal solar returns, there's a very big difference between an 8:00 PM time and the 2:18 AM time. And then there is almost everyone's favored time around 8:00 AM.

Then again, as is always possible: Even if we had a copy of the birth record, the time could have been wrongly recorded. Precise data wasn't considered so important back in the 1940s. My siblings and I would have no recorded time at all if it wasn't for our mother's baby books. And how accurate are they? I don't know if the time in those books came from hospital birth records or not.

But we all do have two firm times to work with: Donald Trump and Tim Kaine. We really should be able to accurately predict election results from that data. Back when there was all the controversy about Obama's data, I used Joe Biden's data to predict the election results. I never did trust the supposed birth record for Obama.
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found the PM. Had to go through email Msg from Deb to get it.

Thelma was (or is?) Smith or Smythe. I do not know if she was Cassandra.

I looked through my emails from years ago. There were 38 between myself, a woman that led me to Zayin and Zayin. She used data supplied by him and it always seemed to work so I wanted to get in touch with him.

She eventually had a falling out with him over his failure to provide a copy of the BC for HRC he claimed to have and his repeated promise of sending it to her by email, fax or mail (excuses: scanner not working, fax not working) and eventual claim to have mailed it but when it never arrived broke off repeated attempts to contact him. Then later a comment on ADB that his lawyer advised him not to provide it.

She also wrote that he provided her with wrong information for Alito and what follows will show a false statement by him to me regarding President Obama's time.

"Re: Obama Birth Time
Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:25 PM

From:
"Zayin Cohen" <************>
To:
"Robert Nicewander" <jan61108>

7:43pm from BC.

--- On Fri, 5/16/08, Robert Nicewander <jan61108> wrote:

From: Robert Nicewander <jan61108>
Subject: Obama Birth Time
To: ********************
Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 4:20 PM

Hello Zayin,

I am going to ask you directly if you have the correct birth time for Obama.

...

Thank you, Shalom,

Robert Nicewander"

But I do get better results with the 2:18 AM time than for the 8:02.

You may certainly use that work as you like. My full name is in the posted clip from my email to Zayin above.

All 3 formats for the data: http://imgur.com/a/KH3of
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
waybread wrote:
waybread wrote:
I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Also, in 1947 Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28, whereas today the time doesn't change until November 6.

Let's hope Clinton's to-be-revealed secretive birth time is in standard time.


Curtis, does this answer your question?


It wasn't really a question. I was saying that some states require recording times in standard time regardless of what time was showing on the wall (daylight or standard). So if it's on the birth certificate one needs to take this into account if the law was in effect. I don't know if DST was in effect in Illinois on Oct 26, 1947.


As I noted above, I was able to check this on-line, and Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28 in 1947. Until 1959, however, all Illinois birth times were required to be listed in CST, regardless.

Bob, I wonder why Z's lawyer would have advised him not to send a copy of a birth certificate to someone else. Maybe he knew it was obtained illegally and might come back to haunt him.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Watson has just written this article on the murky waters of the Virgo rising chart times for Hillary Clinton:

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/2016/10/04/why-marc-penfields-218-am-birth-time-claim-for-hillary-is-a-japanese-turd-burger/

One reassuring thing in this whole confusing mess is ,as Patrick points out, the fact that Hillary Clinton's birth certificate will be publicly accessible when she she reaches the age of 75. According to the Illinois Department of Public Health, uncertified copies of birth certificates can be obtained if the person they belong to is over 75 years old.

So put October 26th 2022 in your astro diaries folks. After that date the mystery will finally be over!

Until, then it looks like we are stuck with a DD rated chart.

Mark
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