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"Bad Moon" article.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject: "Bad Moon" article. Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article161005_e.htm

I was curious about the general idea put forward by the author of this article. Things that made me a bit doubtful were that he used celebrity charts. Ordinary real people's charts can be more difficult because the exact position of the Moon is one of the first casualties of not having a time of birth. So its aspects are not something you can easily look at in a lot of charts. And also, as the Moon refers to emotions, these can be hidden, something people do not talk about - and those who do vividly you usually don't even have a date of birth for, let alone a time.

My other disagreement with this article is that I would need to check every chart on the list for the size of orb he is using for aspects, as I he says he uses an orb up to 10 degrees, which I wouldn't even look at as an aspect. I use mainly one degree orbs, maybe up to two degrees for multiple planet aspects. He does say that he isn't using trines for this purpose, which is good.

I think he might be on to something with his idea, but imo he hasn't shown it with charts that illustrate this. Instincts can run light years ahead of proof.

The other thing I find a bit offputting is that he uses success to measure the value of somebody's lifetime. I suppose this is partly an American thing, about career and what you can sell. Harsh Moon aspects can totally destroy lives and deny success, but I wouldn't say those people were less valuable than successful people who sold stuff. I think at least partly he is trivialising what a harsh Moon aspect can do to people, and seems to be saying that anyone can be as successful as those on his list - who may not have what I would call a Moon aspect anyway.

I don't know about all those celebrities, but one chart that does show a harsh Moon is the scientist Louis Pasteur. He was know for being abrasive as well as obviously a brilliant scientist. His chart is on astro data bank with AA rating for accuracy. His Moon is 17 degrees Gemini 55 minutes, which is 45 degrees to 2 degrees Leo 55 minutes, and his Midheaven is 2 degrees Leo 41 minutes. His Saturn is 3 degrees Taurus 22 minutes and his Jupiter is 27 degrees Taurus 37 minutes, antiscion 2 degrees Leo 23 minutes.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pasteur,_Louis

Another AA data chart, Lena Zavaroni http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Zavaroni,_Lena has Moon with a 2 degree orb square to Pluto. Her inability to make sense of her life wasn't some kind of failure, it was her reality. She died after years of intractable depression, that wiped out her career. And the question that needs answering is are we more than just this one life, and is that kind of sadness a failure compared with some celebrity who makes a lot of money, or even produces something valuable?

Another AA accuracy chart with a Moon Pluto conjunction with a 2 degree orb http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Carpenter,_Karen

Another interesting Moon. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kampusch,_Natascha she has IsisTranspluto 20 degrees Leo 55 minutes, and her Moon 21 degrees Aquarius 54 minutes, Ascendant 25 degrees Aquarius 31 minutes (exact time of birth uncertain and Aquarius sign of short ascenscion in northern hemisphere). Very likely that Moon IsisTranspluto opposition lies just behind her Ascendant/Descendant. She is here for a purpose but it isn't being CEO of Facebook...she said something similar herself in a recent interview, that she didn't want her house to become a theme park.

This is an interesting chart showing a "bad" Moon http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Robert_Smith_(musician) I don't know where Astrotheme got the time of birth of 11.55am from, but if this chart of Robert Smith of the Cure is accurate, there is a stunning T-square of Mars, Saturn and the Moon with tight one and two degree orbs. Crystallising emotion he is very good at, and Mars is almost always strongly involved in charts of rock musicians.

Still, interesting thought behind that article.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

thanks for sharing the article on the moon by this fellow - don't have the link open any more, but did read it..

personally i think the moon is extremely important and always plays 2nd fiddle to the sun in pop astrology and generally. i like how hellenistic astrology got into the theory of sect and the importance of distinguishing between a diurnal verses a nocturnal chart. first off - i think this is very important.. and, in my reading of older astro literature i stumbled on something that makes perfect sense but which also often gets overlooked and that is this. the idea of what the moon is applying to and what the moon is separating from..

i think the 2 planets involved with the moon in this - the one the moon is separating from and applying to - are very important in determining the nature of the moon and the psychology of the person. i wouldn't exclude the trine myself, but i think that is what the writer of the article did.. i would also devalue the outer planets as i think it is the inner planets from saturn in, that are more clear in all of this. however i know this is a personal choice and very clearly the author is into the outer planet focus..

i don't like the term 'bad' moon, but it's catchy and a good way to grab a readers attention! i went and looked at joni mitchells chart which is rated A. moon is in pisces applying to saturn in gemini in the 12th house.. that would seem to be an important feature to her chart, not to mention the moon conjunct the midheaven and the chart being nocturnal.. of course i have loved so much of joni mitchells music and reflect back to listening to the album blue when i was a kid growing up. her music really resonated with me personally as did neil youngs.. neil's chart is rated c, so no comment on that one!

thanks for sharing,
james
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: San Francisco

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The other thing I find a bit offputting is that he uses success to measure the value of somebody's lifetime. I suppose this is partly an American thing, about career and what you can sell. Harsh Moon aspects can totally destroy lives and deny success, but I wouldn't say those people were less valuable than successful people who sold stuff. I think at least partly he is trivialising what a harsh Moon aspect can do to people, and seems to be saying that anyone can be as successful as those on his list - who may not have what I would call a Moon aspect anyway.


You summed up my problem with the article. I will say, as someone with a very bad moon, that successfully accomplishing something is important, but the accomplishment can be modest. An afflicted moon is awful and fame is a bitch of a reward. If someone really wants to help, don't condescend with silver linings. Send cash and a bottle of Prozac.
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Vicki



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term "bad moon" is never properly defined other than referring to "hard" aspects.

I don't care for these generalised descriptions. What about rulership, house position, planetary dignity, fixed stars? What about transits,directions or progressions which might activate these aspects?

Each chart must be delineated on its own merits with accuracy and precision.

Yes as you said Fleur, the orbs are important and to which planet the Moon first applied after birth as James said and which is something I always look at.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your posts, lots of things I need to think about, and that article did get me thinking too. I will come back to this thread later on when more time.

James mentioned Joni Mitchell's chart, and it has a striking similarity to the chart of Robert Smith, the genius behind "The Cure", with a strong Moon Saturn Mars hard aspect. I had never thought of Moon Saturn in that way before, and the article describes it as "crystallising emotion". Just the lyrics of the song "the Drowning Man" by the Cure is crystallised emotion, a tribute to the writer Mervyn Peake that with a few words says so much about his life.

I know that the musician Nick Cave has a Moon Pluto conjunction, but his birth time doesn't seem to be known so it might not be a very tight orb, but listening to his music you have to assume that it is. He recently released an album called "The Skeleton Tree" with a song called "Girl in Amber" that seems to express a Moon Pluto conjunction. I listened to it several times and each time it made me physically cry.

I take Vicki's point, and had been thinking that whether or not somebody can turn the Moon aspects into success, great or small, is related to the chart as a whole. I am thinking that maybe not every chart even could, or is designed to. Millions of people have these aspects and most are not geniuses or even successful. Sorry, that isn't exactly hitting the point I am trying to make either, as I think these people are geniuses, they leave behind an unheard or not much heard trace, some of their descriptions are amazing from some of the things Lena Zavaroni said about a "grey veil" etc, to the descriptions given by R. D. Laing in his chapter "the ghost of the weed garden", where he quotes one of his favourite young patients from an ordinary uneducated background, who was an ordinary young girl but said and described things she couldn't have known about....
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

i don't like the term 'bad' moon, but it's catchy and a good way to grab a readers attention! i went and looked at joni mitchells chart which is rated A. moon is in pisces applying to saturn in gemini in the 12th house.. that would seem to be an important feature to her chart, not to mention the moon conjunct the midheaven and the chart being nocturnal.. of course i have loved so much of joni mitchells music and reflect back to listening to the album blue when i was a kid growing up. her music really resonated with me personally as did neil youngs.. neil's chart is rated c, so no comment on that one!


James,

Joni Mitchell does have a "bad" Moon though in that it brought bad things to her. She contracted Polio aged nine when the profected ASC fell in Sidereal Pisces with the revolution Moon transiting Saturn and the ASC and in an exact square with the revolution Saturn. I read briefly in her bio that this illness changed her focus from athletics to singing and dancing - this is a consequence of an afflicted benefic bringing speaking of one's career. I think Venus' aspect doesn't help either.
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Fleur



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad, I read that Robert Smith of the Cure has severe depression, though he seems to keep his personal stuff private and only expresses anything for public consumption through his songs.

I haven't listened to a lot of Joni Mitchell, maybe I should. Jackson Browne wrote the songs "Fountain of Sorrow" and "Birds of St Marks" about her, she was their muse. This is the Joni Mitchell song I know best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3XXMMfQZv8
"The Circle Game" covered by Ian McCulloch. There seem to be Saturnian themes like Time, "we are captive on a carousel of Time".

Jackson Browne's wife Phyllis Major, who committed suicide probably suffering from post natal depression, born 9th January 1946, Miami, Florida, no birth time known but the noon chart gives the Moon at 4 degrees Aries which has an antiscion of 26 degrees Virgo which is 45 degrees to Pluto at 11 degrees Leo. At the time transiting Pluto in Libra had crossed the opposition to this area. I suppose this is just hypothetical without a time, and Mars is commonly associated with suicide. She was a model and had been in one very good arthouse film called "The Candysnatchers". If her Moon is "bad", ie 45 degrees to Pluto, then it may have contributed to her success but also depression. The Candysnatchers is a great movie, free to watch on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKFttEBOgRU

This is Nick Cave's chart http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Nick_Cave
It is a noon chart, but the Moon and Pluto are in conjunction and likely a close one. This links to "Girl in Amber" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKq39e7SBOE

I just found a copy of Judy Hall's "The Hades Moon". She gives many chart examples of Moon Pluto aspects, including Jim Morrison's chart which has an exact Moon square Pluto, within one degree orb, and John Lennon's chart which has an exact Moon opposition Pluto, within one degree orb. Thinks of "Strawberry Fields Forever".
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konrad,

these terms 'good' and 'bad' don't seem all that informative or helpful as i see it.. i think it's more interesting to talk about the planets that are colouring the moon any particular way as opposed to using these terms. i am reminded of the tao teh ching quote for those who like these good/bad terms - "“It is upon bad fortune that good fortune leans, upon good fortune that bad fortune rests.”

was it good or bad for joni? it is all relative and a value judgment either way. when does an obstacle become useful, or a great teacher as opposed to a simple negative? what part of one person has it in them to rise about the obstacle, verses another one who is held down by it?

obviously the moon in joni mitchells chart is a real focal point for good and bad.. you picked a good year to examine.. it would be helpful to know the date she contacted polio - was it prior to or after her 9th birthday? the solar return for her 9th birthdate has moon in an exact opposition to mars which happens to land on the ascendant axis of her natal chart.. sr saturn squares onto both ends of all of this too, so we see replicated the natal pattern of moon square mars/saturn within a slightly different aspect relationship - all hard aspects either way and all contacting the natal ascendant axis... sr venus plays along by being opposite the natal mars/saturn too.. sure - venus doesn't help... this goes into the astro idea that saturn holds more gravitas then the inner planets - venus and etc.

i mostly see it as a philosophical difference whether one likes to use these terms or not.. the fact she was forced to change a focus from athletics to music being the end result.. was it good or bad? who is to say? how does she view it? i think the folks who have enjoyed her music would view it ultimately favourably..

and, i don't think it was the moon that brought bad things to her, so much as the 12th house combo of mars/saturn, but maybe i am splitting hairs with you here.. thanks for the engagement and conversation.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

It is upon bad fortune that good fortune leans, upon good fortune that bad fortune rests.”



Intereting quote. But it reminded me of another quote, from William Blake.
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
We are led to Believe a Lie
When we see not Thro the Eye
Which was Born in a Night to perish in a Night
When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light
God Appears & God is Light
To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
But does a Human Form Display
To those who Dwell in Realms of day


I think the question is what are we as individuals, are we just this one life or is this life just a tiny experience in who we are?

I am not disagreeing with your quote that bad and good fortune rest on each other. This does seem to happen within an individual's life. It is just that some individuals have overall sad, unfortunate lives and others overall happy, fortunate lives. I remember one of those television history programs where they reconstruct a person from their bones, it was called "Crossbones Girl", she died aged 19, I think in 1851, of tertiary syphilis, in dire poverty, and it looked as though her whole short life was not happy. Her bones had not fused at the epiphises, the parts on the ends of long bones where they grow from, which led the scientific team to first think they were dealing with a young child, maybe until they found actual records for her birth and death, so poverty and poor nutrition had caused poor health quite apart from prostitution and disease. I don't think she experienced much good fortune resting on her bad fortune, unless you look at her in terms of her being more than that one lifetime, or that her spirit likes the ribbons tied to the railings of the Crossbones cemetery, looking up at the Shard in London.


Last edited by Fleur on Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Konrad



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you are saying, James. I think it is more helpful to say that the Moon square Saturn shows bad things for whatever the Moon signifies (in this case the body and how it affects her work - Moon in the 10th sign). Whatever Joni thought of it herself is inconsequential then (though I think it is safe to say that almost all people who contract polio which then harms their body like it did here would say that this is a subjectively bad experience while they are going through it). I don't think we should be afraid of thinking of something as "bad" or "good" as these are realities of life; some things we would want for ourselves, others not.

I'm sorry, I typed my original message while I was heading out. I meant that Venus does help. She went from a focus on athletics to music and dancing - the Moon applying to Saturn and then to an opposition to Venus fits this perfectly with the opposition to a benefic showing a favourable end coming via adversity.

For what it is worth, Wikipedia says she contracted it age 9, so the 1952 revolution.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks fleur,

i enjoyed the william blake quote! i like the way your are thinking about all this too.. regarding your earlier comments - i don't really know nick caves music.. i know i have heard him, but don't know much about him.. i really think working with concrete times - AA, is better then not.. if i had to consider my own chart and i didn't have a time for myself, i would be much more confused as well!!! i have moon separating from jupiter and applying to venus fwiw.. more lunar aspects to pluto and saturn come afterwards.. moon pluto contacts are challenging as i see it.. reminds me of my moon in scorpio, lol... thanks for your comments.

thanks konrad,

good comments and we are just looking at much the same data from a different angle.. cheers james
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to tag this on as an edit to my last post, but having looked through Judy Hall's book "The Hades Moon", which is a massive study of Moon Pluto aspects, this book contains so much that comments about it would overwhelm one post. She presents the charts of the Brontes, and so far I have only had time to look at Emily Bronte's chart. Judy Hall writes "the time used was dowsed, for no time of birth was recorded". This author seems to have such a powerful intuitive grasp of these aspects that I do place some trust in her dowsing, and also she never mentions antiscia and it is the antiscia to Emily Bronte's Moon that form such strong aspects, so it is like a psychic telling you something when they had no physical means of knowing.

Emily Bronte's Moon is shown as 3 degrees Cancer 08 minutes, giving an antiscion of 27 degrees Gemini. Her Pluto is 26 degrees Pisces 16 minutes, Neptune 24 degrees Sagittarius 05 minutes, Chiron 25 degrees Pisces 08 minutes, Jupiter 4 degrees Capricorn 39 minutes, and 45 degrees from 3 degrees Cancer is 18 degrees Leo, her Mercury is 19 degrees Leo 51 minutes.

Emily Bronte's mother died in 1821, when Emily was three years old, with transiting Neptune 3 degrees Capricorn, opposition her natal Moon, Pluto 27 degrees Pisces and Chiron 27 degrees Pisces to 3 degrees Aries.

The chart angles of this dowsed rectified chart are Ascendant 13 degrees Leo 52 minutes and Midheaven 24 degrees Aries 02 minutes. July 30th 1818, GMT 5am, 53N44, 01W45.

You couldn't find a more stunning Moon. I regard the double Jupiter and Chiron aspects as a "super-open" aspect to that planet and here it is her Moon (often great rock musicians have this "super-open" double whammy of Jupiter and Chiron both aspecting their Mars, and usually carrying Neptune but occasionally it can be Pluto). Emily Bronte has this "super-opening" Jupiter Chiron both aspecting her Moon, and it is also carrying Pluto and Neptune. Michel Gauquelin's research linked the Moon with writers. (Although in this chart the Moon is not in a Gauquelin zone, Pluto and Chiron in Pisces are, in the most important Gauquelin zone behind the Midheaven, and they square her Moon's antiscion).

Apologies to people who like AA data birth times, this chart was too stunning to pass over, and so many people passed like water under a bridge with no information at all about even their date of birth, and these are usually the interesting people.
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judy Hall also gives the chart of Charlotte Bronte, actually all their charts. The birth time is also dowsed as 9.10 GMT. April 21st 1816, 53N44, 0001W45.

Very similar pattern to Emily's. Moon 23 degrees Aquarius 05 minutes, conjunct Saturn 22 degrees Aquarius 33 minutes. Jupiter 5 degrees Scorpio 48 minutes, antiscion 24 degrees Aquarius 12 minutes. Chiron 16 degrees Pisces 20 minutes, makes a small 22.5 degree aspect to these. Neptune 21 degrees Sagittarius 54 minutes is 45 degrees to 7 degrees Aquarius (antiscion 23 degrees Scorpio, squares the Moon). Pluto 23 degrees Pisces 27 minutes, very close aspect to Neptune. Neptune and its antiscion in Gauquelin zone behind Descendant and Pluto's antiscion in Gauquelin zone behind IC.

Her two elder sisters died of tuberculosis in June 1825, as transiting Neptune was around 8 degrees Capricorn, which was 45 degree semisquare to Charlotte's natal Moon. They were mother substitutes for her after her mother died, and Charlotte herself became a mother substitute for her younger siblings after their deaths. Transiting IsisTranspluto reaches 22 degrees Taurus in 1827, squaring her Moon one degree applying, and squaring her Saturn, and IsisTranspluto passes 24 degrees Taurus in April 1831, separating this aspect by one degree. I am not an expert on the Brontes, and maybe others here know a lot more about their lives than I do and how this powerful transit of IsisTranspluto to Charlotte Bronte's Moon affected her and manifested. A close Moon Saturn conjunction in somebody's chart has to be a very important part of who they are, and an outer planet squaring this conjunction has to be a significant transit. All I can do is quote Wikipedia, where it describes the period in Charlotte's life between leaving Lowood school in 1825 and leaving home in 1831; this was between the ages of 9 and 15.
"At home in Haworth Parsonage Charlotte acted as "the motherly friend and guardian of her younger sisters".[3] She and her surviving siblings — Branwell, Emily and Anne – created their own fictional worlds, and began chronicling the lives and struggles of the inhabitants of their imaginary kingdoms. Charlotte and Branwell wrote Byronic stories about their jointly imagined country, Angria, and Emily and Anne wrote articles and poems about Gondal. The sagas they created were episodic and elaborate, and they exist in incomplete manuscripts, some of which have been published as juvenilia. They provided them with an obsessive interest during childhood and early adolescence, which prepared them for literary vocations in adulthood"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Bront%C3%AB

The Saturn Moon conjunction is interesting, as people assume that this would be an extremely "bad" Moon, but the Moon has been identified by Gauquelin as linked with writers, and Charlotte Bronte's ability to write was not damaged by Saturn being conjunct her Moon.
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Fleur



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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


i think the 2 planets involved with the moon in this - the one the moon is separating from and applying to - are very important in determining the nature of the moon and the psychology of the person.


This is an area I haven't looked at before. It sounds like long-accepted traditional astrology?
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Vicki



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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I shouldn't be answering your question to James, Fleur (I hope he doesn't mind) but I also take note of the Moon's separation and application in any chart. It is automatically the first thing I take note of in any chart.

It is one of Guido Bonatti's 146 considerations. He may of course have derived it from an earlier tradition which James knows about.

I do regard it as very important ,so in instances where there is a Moon/Saturn aspect for instance it would, in my opinion, be made worse if the Moon's next application is to Saturn.

Bonatti said that when the Moon was separating from a benefic to a malefic there would be a bad outcome (in a horary or natal chart) and vice versa.
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