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US Presidential Elections since 1856 - Saturn and Jupiter

 
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: US Presidential Elections since 1856 - Saturn and Jupiter Reply with quote

I was reading in a book by Barbara Watters that Saturn traditionally rules the Democratic party and Jupiter the Republican party.

With that in mind I undertook to study all the presidential elections since 1856 (the Republican party being first established in 1854) to see if there was any correlation between Saturn and Jupiter and the winning parties. I looked at the planetary positions on the day of each election and this is some of what I found :-

I first of all looked at the placement of Venus, being aware of the 8 year cycle of Venus alternating between Sagittarius and Libra. I looked at only 37 of the 40 elections since 1856 because in 1872 there was no democrat candidate and I left out the 1868 and 1908 elections because Venus was in Virgo and not Libra.

When Venus was in Sagittarius there were 7 Democrat wins and 12 Republican wins.
When Venus was in Libra there were 12 Democrat wins and 6 Republican wins.
Republicans twice as likely to win when Venus is in Sag. Democrats more likely when Venus is in Libra.

Then I looked at which planets were ruling on the day (on the dispositor chain).
Whenever Jupiter was the overall ruler the Republicans won i.e. in 1896, 1912, 1928, 1952, 1968, 1972 and 2000. Additionally when Jupiter ruled everything apart fromVenus in Libra, the Republicans won in 1924 and 1956.

Next I looked at the elections when the Moon’s first application after sunrise on the day was to Venus (I have included minor aspects) and found the following :-

1864 The Moon applied to Venus in Sag – Republican win.
1884 The Moon applied to Venus in Libra – Democrat win.
1948 The Moon applied to Venus in Libra – Democrat win.
1952 The Moon applied to Venus in Sag – Rep win.
1964 The Moon applied to Venus in Sag – Rep win.
1984 The Moon applied to Venus in Sag – Rep win.
1996 The Moon applied to Venus in Libra – Dem win.

An exception is the 1980 election when the Moon applied to Venus in Libra and a Republican won.

There has never been an election when Saturn was the overall ruler unless we count Saturn being exalted in Libra so in :-

1892 Saturn ruled everything except itself and Venus in Libra. Democrat win.
1992 Saturn ruled everything except Jupiter in Libra. Democrat win
2008 Saturn ruled everything except Mars in Scorpio. Democrat win.

So I conclude there is some correlation between the Republicans and Sagittarius (ruled by Jupiter of course) making it possible to at least suggest a likelihood of a Republican win. I have found a Democrat win to accompany a much more mixed planetary rulership on the day (in itself indicating the greater likelihood of a Democrat win).

As for the election on 8th November 2016?

Well Jupiter disposits everything on the day. The Moon’s next application after sunrise is to Venus in Sagittarius.
So I conclude from my findings that there is a greater likelihood of a Republican win but note I say “likelihood” and not “certainty”.

Please don’t shoot the messenger! It stands as it is. I don’t claim this to be a masterpiece of statistical analysis and of course “there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics”.

The 1980 election for instance was a break with the statistical pattern. Venus in Libra disposited everything (which had never happened before ) and yet a Republican won. My hamfisted attempt at explaining this is that the person concerned had a cluster of stars rising in Libra in his natal chart. Also noteworthy is the triple Saturn/Jupiter conjunction in Libra in 1980/81.
In any case a remarkable year because the 20 year assassination pattern was also broken.


Now tell me who’s the Democrat and who’s the Republican ? How should I know I’m a Brit !? Wink
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you haven't been tipped off by now, Donald Trump is the Republican Nominee and Hillary Clinton is the Democrat.

I'm on record as stating a winning candidate cannot be determined using the natal chart alone and I haven't seen any methods that combine the natal chart with something that even makes sense to me. And to those who might object, I say look to your own predictions. If the only time you're right is when your guy wins, you're doing something wrong.

But using the political parties is a more sound idea. First it takes the personalities out of it and the astrologer's attempt to say "That blankety, blank, blank, blank has all the wrong aspects, so that's why he or she is going to lose." And miraculously the astrologer's candidate has all the right conditions.

And it also eliminates, what I think is the most brain dead method - whomever has the strongest natal chart wins. General George S. Patton has one of the weakest charts I've seen. If combat success was based on chart strength, I might very well be writing this in German.

But the founders of the American Republic must have been decidedly anti-astrology because they set up a government designed at every step to thwart it. How do we differentiate between a party's victory in the Congress and Victory in the Presidency. Barak Obama knows this well. The Republicans are in charge of both houses of the Congress and the Democrats are in charge of the White House.

But then there is the Reagan situation. While he was President for 6 of his 8 years the Republicans controlled the Senate, and for his entire term the Democrats controlled the House of Representatives. How does that show up if we use the charts of the political parties? It may be there, but no one, to my knowledge has attempted to work that out.

Public opinion poll after poll demonstrates that American citizens are confused by how their national government works. Recently someone born and raised in the USA wrote that he/she "heard that the Electoral College is what counts not the popular vote." Heard? Like it's a rumor? So if that is typical of a large number of Americans, how are astrologers both native born (in the USA) and foreign going to be able to cope with how these people vote?

Vicki's method makes as much sense as anything I've come across and more than most. And it avoids the personality trap and uses the positions of the palnets that are likely to remain there for the entire day.

But there are still problems. Is this one national election, or 50 independent ones? Is it a contest as Nina Gryphon has proposed or is it 50 contests each carried out with slightly different rules. There are three time zones in the US. Florida is in two of them. Does Florida have two charts or is every state governed by EST, even if the voting doesn't start for hours later in some places, or worse yet, is everyone governed by the chart of Dixville Notch, NH - a town with less than 100 voters? Go with the party charts I guess.
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Jupiterhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 518

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post, Vicki.

I think it would be useful to apply predictive techniques to the date of the Inauguration rather than polling day.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturnhead

That’s a good suggestion. I shall look into that.

Tom

Interesting that you say that after the 1980 election the Democrats had a majority in the House of Representatives because that was the year when the Moon applied to Venus in Libra and in previous years that had always resulted in a Democrat win whereas in 1980 the Republican won.

I agree regarding natal charts. An adverse Saturn direction in either of the contenders’ charts could be interpreted as losing the election but might it not also mean a contender winning and taking on a huge responsibility and duty? Also both contenders’ charts must show success because they would have both done well to be running for president.

Some astrologers look to the nomination charts for the winner. Barbara Watters said that a void of course Moon in such a chart would be unfavourable for winning the presidency. However in 1972 both contenders had void of course Moons in their nomination charts but then of course Nixon’s presidency ended in resignation.

I see the point about all the different time zones and people voting on different dates but something of the same thing happens here in the UK, albeit on a much smaller scale. People have postal votes weeks before the election and in the case of the June UK EU referendum this year Gibraltar voted and has a different time zone. I think the actual day of the election, laid down by law, takes on a strong, symbolic significance and resonance.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Democrats took control of the House of Representatives in 1954 and lost the majority in 1994. Prior to that they controlled the House almost every session from 1932. A Republican majority was rare until 1994.

They controlled the Senate a few times in that period such as the 6 years during Reagan's Administration.
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:


And it also eliminates, what I think is the most brain dead method - whomever has the strongest natal chart wins. General George S. Patton has one of the weakest charts I've seen. If combat success was based on chart strength, I might very well be writing this in German.



Luckily we have the exact birth time for George S. Patton: 6.38 PM. With 33 events I rectified it to 6.39.40 PST Asc 20Gem49'.
MC in exact opposition to Mars (orb 38'), square Pluto, trine Saturn and sextile Venus- and you call this chart "one of the weakest charts"?? If we look at the heliocentric positions, helio Venus is in exact opposition to helio Jupiter (orb 1'), both 90 Asc and in harmonious aspects to helio Mars and to the luminaries. I would call this chart as one of the strongest charts I've seen for a general.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you call this chart "one of the weakest charts"??


Issac, look what you did. You change the known birth time by personal rectification (albeit by very little), use helio when I used geo and then say after the charges that it is a strong chart. <Smacks> Wow what was I thinking???

There is no planet with any strong essential dignity in the chart. Venus, the only planet with any worth mentioning is horribly debilitated by being opposite Saturn in detriment not to mention occidental. Mars is opposite (a debility) the MC, but is conjunct the IC although peregrine. Mercury, Saturn, the Moon, and Jupiter, Lord ASC, are all in detriment. The Sun is peregrine. A real powerhouse.
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
you call this chart "one of the weakest charts"??


Issac, look what you did. You change the known birth time by personal rectification (albeit by very little), use helio when I used geo and then say after the charges that it is a strong chart. <Smacks> Wow what was I thinking???

There is no planet with any strong essential dignity in the chart. Venus, the only planet with any worth mentioning is horribly debilitated by being opposite Saturn in detriment not to mention occidental. Mars is opposite (a debility) the MC, but is conjunct the IC although peregrine. Mercury, Saturn, the Moon, and Jupiter, Lord ASC, are all in detriment. The Sun is peregrine. A real powerhouse.


My adding of 100 seconds to his birth time doesn't change anything relevant for the delineation. My claim that it is a strong chart was made without the helio positions. The helio only intensify it and especially his luck.
So, if the chart is so weak, how you explain the fact that he is considered one of the most brilliant soldiers in American history, a legendary?
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:
Quote:
So, if the chart is so weak, how you explain the fact that he is considered one of the most brilliant soldiers in American history, a legendary?


I take it you are unaware, Tom is something of an authority on Patton's chart?

Have you seen Tom's article on Patton?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/patton.html

The answer to your question is in this article by Tom I hope.

If not i suggest you both make use of the PM system and discuss this privately. It has little connection to this thread topic. I would like to get back to Vicki's interesting topic.

Thanks

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, if the chart is so weak, how you explain the fact that he is considered one of the most brilliant soldiers in American history, a legendary?


If you are going to make a coherent argument, then drop the helio references altogether. They are nothing but a diversion. That was part of my point. Secondly I acknowledged that the rectified time was insignificant, but, if it meant so little, why reference it?

Third you missed the point entirely. So I'll say it again. We were talking about the Presidential predictions and I said that it was brain dead to think the strongest chart wins all the time. That is true because it doesn't always win in everything. Upsets happen. Weak athletic teams pull off big victories. Events happen that change situations, yet the natal chart remains the same. Sure sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. That's the point. It is not predictable with the nativity alone.

I used Patton's chart as an example of a person who succeeded with a weak chart. Your demanding to know how it is possible in light of his victories doesn't make his chart strong. He overcame the obstacles presented to him in his chart. To wit: Gemini rising ruled by Mercury in Sagittarius in the 6th an indication of disease, possibly mental issues. Patton suffered from what we would call today "Learning Disabilities." Reading, math and spelling were difficult for him - very difficult. That's what the chart shows. He overcame those difficulties with strength of will. He virtually memorized his way through West Point.

As for his battlefield successes, if we plot the secondary progressions of Venus, we note she hits his Pisces MC, her exaltation, almost to the month when he was assigned the Third Army. Venus is weak in the chart (albeit the strongest planet in it), but he worked his butt off in preparation for leading a great army and when he was given that command, the chart cooperated nicely. Venus in Capricorn opposite Saturn in Cancer is a serious debility. But it is a natal condition. It is not permanent unless we take astrology to a level of fatalism that would make the stoics stand back and whistle with admiration.

There are several angular planets in his chart using quadrant houses. But being angular doesn't make a weak planet strong. The planet is weak regardless of where it is placed. It does however allow the planet to give off all that it can. It's just that weak planets at 100% don't give very much.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read yesterday that Helmut Norpoth a political science professor at State University of New York Stony Brook has developed a model which when applied retroactively would have correctly predicted the winner of every US election since 1912 with the exception of 2000 when of course the Democrat won the popular vote but the Republican was awarded more votes in the Electoral college and thus won the election.

I read the article in "The Time of India" but won't post the link because it's far too long.

Anyway the election in 2000 was one of those elections when Jupiter disposited everything on the day of the election, which has always indicated a Republican win, so far!
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link :-

http://bit.ly/2ejwBgm
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