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besieged planets, hillary clinton, donald trump

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: besieged planets, hillary clinton, donald trump Reply with quote

this topic sprang up on page 18 of the us presidential election thread ( found here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9148&start=255).. i am relocating 2 posts that are relevant to the topic here.

james_m wrote:
thanks tom,

i wonder if besiegement is another horary astrology tool that some folks try to apply to other avenues of astrology? that is about the only thought i can share on it.... from the pov of hillarys marriage to bill it's interesting, but i'm not sure how much one wants to read into that..

one could even make an argument that trumps venus and pluto are besieged by saturn/mars! it might be less significant if only because it runs a few signs, but i am not so sure. there was a book written in the 70's called planetary containment, or something like that - which was quite interesting in that it would line up three planets and give an overview of what it meant with the one in the middle and etc.. actually it is called 'planets in containment' a study of 900 combinations by john sandbach and ronn ballard.

number 350 is saturn-venus-mars which if you leave out pluto - applies to trump..
number 335 is mars-venus-saturn which again, if you leave out pluto - applies to hillary.

let me know if you'd like to hear the interpretation these authors give for them..


Tom wrote:
I'd like to hear those for sure. I don't want to get off topic. This is a either way position. But on the topic of besiegement , Morin said something like if the besieged planet is faster than both of the besieging planets, and in this case it is, then what it represents in the chart will be notable in effects.

I did a quick check of transits, progressions and directions and didn't see anything hitting Venus, Mars or Saturn that would set this off. But, using the 8:02 am time, which I admit is subjective or at least no better than any other time, this puts Venus in her 12th house. Just today the National Enquirer, a rough equivalent to British Tabloids, came out with an announcement that a guy who set up sex trysts for Hillary and provided other underhanded services has told all to them. He has of course, revealed all. Whether he can be believed or not is a different matter, but it all fits Venus in Scorpio in 12 so well and the fact that this came out, true or not, fits Venus in Scorpio in 12. I'll have to explain that in depth another time. Things are happening too fast in the election for analysis.


tom - regarding jb morins comments - the speed of saturn and jupiter are the slowest (if we exclude the outers).. any besieged planet between mars and saturn, unless it's jupiter - will be faster moving.. in the case of both hillary and trumps chart, venus is moving fast and technically falls into the besieged place as i understand it... neither of them relate all that well to the public is what it might suggest superficially to me!

interesting about the latest development from the tabloid dept.. hard to know what to take in this election with regard to any news about the character of either candidate as i see it.. the campaign seems so contentious and loaded with attempted character assassinations... maybe this is the mars/pluto assassination that some are looking for where one of them will land a good pr punch to the jugular.. i can't wait til the election is over.

from the book 'planets in containment' a study of 900 combinations by john sandbach and ronn ballard.

number 335 is mars-venus-saturn - hillary clinton chart, (if you leave out pluto, although the book includes the outers)..
"The love nature is excitable and aggressive. These people value the process of building ideas, relationship, or anything else. In this lifetime they are learning how to carry on this building of something worthwhile in a careful, paced and objective manner. In terms of asserting their values, the may often go too far, burn themselves out, or feel frustrated that life compels thm to cope with necessity where love is concerned. If they can be patient in this context, and use their love energy carefully, they can attain self-gratification.
Positive: Active love is manifested in a focused and constant manner.
Negative: Aggressive possessiveness causes the individuals to be defensive and to limit themselves unnecessarily.

number 350 is saturn-venus-mars - donald trump chart (if you leave out pluto here, although the book included the outers)..
"These people have a carefully focused and defined sense of values. In this lifetime they are learning to project their personal values in a dynamic and aggressive manner. They may be uncomfortable since they fear attack or dispute which might sway their sense of self-worth. Nevertheless, it is this sort of interaction they need, for through it their values will be continually tested and hence either destroyed and changed or made stronger.
Positive: An appreciation of practical necessities helps the individuals in the accomplishment of tasks and projects.
Negative: Dissatisfaction with love or feeling unloved causes the individuals to be hostile or aggressive.

what is interesting if you include the outers is that venus is besieged in both hillary and trumps chart by the planets pluto and saturn.
the combo is saturn-venus-pluto in trumps chart, while it is pluto-venus-saturn in hillarys chart.

i am also just contemplating right now the idea that although hillary clintons chart does conform to the idea of besiegement fully, donald trumps might not, as aspects from jupiter and sun for example, would break the besiegement idea on his chart.. perhaps hillarys venus making the trine to moon - in the 218am chart would make it not applicable to her either, although it is applicable with any chart 8am and later..

it is interesting that on the day of the election nov 8th, if one excludes aspects into the mix - saturn and mars are separated by a 45 degree aspect with both pluto and venus inside this 45 degree wedge. 7 degrees capricorn 20 is the midpoint of these 2 planets, while 5 degree capricorn 30(morning time) is the midpoint to venus/pluto.. donald trumps neptune is at 5 libra 50..

not sure how far one can take the concept of besiegement here, and maybe it is a topic for another thread separate from the 2016 election..
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to post what follows on the other thread, but since you started this one, I'll post here. Regarding Jupiter being the only planet slower than Mars that can be besieged there are two points:
1) He's like that. He sometimes throws out a description without thinking it through but ...
2) He says in book 21 that any planet can be a malefic under certain conditions and therefore any planet can be besieged, even Saturn. The full quote is in what follows.

I’m going to use the 8:02 AM Time. The basics demonstrated here can be applied to any chart produced on that day, but the areas of life will be different. Advocates of a different time can produce that information.

At 8:02 AM in Chicago on Oct 26, 1947, Venus was squarely in the 12th house at 16 Scorpio. Mars is at 14 Leo and Saturn is at 21 Leo. I’m going to ignore Pluto as that isn’t going to help her anyway, and truth be told I don’t use Pluto all that much. Anyway according to Ibn Ezra, Bonatti, Morin, and I’m sure others, this makes Venus besieged. A besieged planet is said to have nowhere to turn. Either direction brings it into contact with a malefic. This is easier to visualize if the besieged planet is bodily between the two malefics. But other than that, I found very little information on how any planet would manifest if it were besieged.

Morin suggested in book 16 of Astrologia Gallica that it is like the translation of light that is used mostly by horary astrologers. He hated horary, and there is no reason why it can’t be used in a nativity. So Venus translates light between Mars and Saturn both in Leo. Saturn is in the sign of his detriment.

Saturn-Mars conjunctions can be said to provoke destruction. This conjunction is a bit wide, but Venus links them. She is what is used to provoke. We need only to add her influence. So we can start there.

Venus is a feminine planet in a feminine sign (so far so good), but the sign is also a violent sign. Venus also meets Morin’s requirement of a benefic planet in a malefic sign (any sign ruled by or is the exaltation of a malefic) in a bad house. But it is also possible to consider Venus in this chart as a malefic. To wit:


Quote:
Furthermore any planet in adverse celestial state, such as in exile (detriment – that’s one), retrograde, in bad aspect to malefics (two) and receiving no good aspects from benefics (three), can be considered malefic universally and for the whole world, and so also for any individual born at that time – no matter what house it falls in by either location or rulership. – Book 21 p 57.


So, now Venus is malefic planet, malefic house, malefic sign. The idea of accidental malefics, i.e. a benefic or neutral planet that become malefic due to its position, is not unique to Morin. Let’s see what he has to say about this in general:

Quote:
“A malefic in adverse state in an unfortunate house, whose evil it strongly promotes, brings the worse possible circumstances and even infamy, disgrace, or violence.”


If this is a bit much, then we can look at a benefic in poor state in a bad house. First a caveat: Morin treats the 12th as the house of illness and says the 6th is incorrectly used for illness because it is sometimes accidentally correct. But it is only correct because it is opposite the 12th. And houses will sometimes take on the characteristics of the opposite albeit weakly.

Quote:
“But a benefic planet in adverse celestial state, in the twelfth or eighth house or ruler of one of those houses, will not prevent disease and may even cause serious ones, nor will it prevent violent death, especially if this is shown in some other way”


Hillary’s health has been widely discussed. He doesn’t go on to explain what it will do in this passage (he’s like that from time to time), but he said elsewhere that a benefic in such state can save the native from the worst of these. For example, a native might suffer serious injury from an enemy, but survive due to the benefic nature of Venus or Jupiter, whereas without the assistance from a benefic the native would die or suffer permanent effects. So the bad stuff will happen, but the native might luck out. However Venus is in such terrible shape in this chart I think she is an accidental malefic. And if her connections to the malefics weren’t enough. Venus is in the contra antiscion of Mars.

Some of the adverse characteristics of the 12th house are, trials, obstacles, sorrows, confinement secret enemies, illnesses, persecution, loss etc. Venus rules her 7th, so we know some of this is true, e.g. her health issues, her enemies releasing video tapes of her campaign staff admitting to violently disrupting Trump’s rallies and of course there is her husband’s behavior.
Venus also rules the 11th. Her friends are likely to ditch her, too. And in fact only yesterday (Oct 19) the less than completely reputable National Enquirer boasted they will publish, today, a story of a former “friend” (secret enemy?) of Hillary’s, a former employee supposedly documented to the NE all sorts of sordid things Hillary did – thus matching the symbolism perfectly. Full disclosure: The NE is published by a friend of Trump’s, I believe.

Venus brings this to Mars, the provocateur and ruler of her ASC and the 5th house of pleasure. Mars in turn brings this “light” to Saturn ruler of the 3rd - gossip (where Mars is exalted). Aquarius is intercepted in the third. Using whole sign houses Aquarius rules the 4th – can’t go any lower. And what she brings to Mars, she brings to be destroyed.

Although I doubt the NE story will have a large direct effect on the election. We’ve become numb to these kinds of stories. This sort of activity however, taken to the point of destruction could mean it backfires on her. Her campaign went in the gutter with a gutter fighter, so it should be no surprise that she comes up dirty. But it is hard to imagine such a Venus, Mars, and Saturn combination taking the high road.

The 9th house using only her nativity could mean problems in college or other such pursuits. Religion is a factor, too and leaked e-mail shows her campaign staff ridiculing Catholics and Evangelicals. That stuff will stick to her. In the mundane sense it is foreign affairs. Combining the words “destruction” with “foreign affairs” makes men queasy. Whether this is enough to derail the campaign remains to be seen.

Previously it was thought one of Thomas Jefferson’s campaigns was the dirtiest ever. It was then when rumors first circulated that he had a sexual relationship with a slave. It was argued by his opponents that meant rape would be legal if Jefferson was elected. We may have passed that low point.


Last edited by Tom on Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tom,

thanks for the overview ala morin.. that was interesting.

you mention early in your post - venus in the 8th... 802am time has venus in the 12th or 1st depending on your house system. i gather you are using placidus as you have aries on the 5th..

i don't follow the tabloid news, but thanks for the overview on that.. it seems this election has been marked by people choosing the lesser of two evils, as opposed to being really into a particular candidate... maybe that is reflected in the charts.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a brain hiccup. It's in the 12th. She can't square Mars in the 9th from the 8th. I'll make the correction.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading a little more about Morin on this topic. He devotes several pages to the idea that any planet between two others by body or by aspect is a special consideration. This makes his comment that if the middle planet is faster than the other two a more understandable. He is isn't only talking about besiegement, but any planet between any two planets. It's only called besiegement if it happens between the malefics. So if Jupiter is between Mercury and the Moon, it's a special consideration.
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Vicki



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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you James for raising this topic. I never realised that a planet could be besieged by aspect. This makes Hilary Clinton’s Venus even more afflicted than I first thought.
It is obviously in detriment in Scorpio, then it is afflicted being square to Saturn and now the besiegement by Saturn/ Pluto/Mars.

If we go with the 8.02.am chart or at least Scorpio rising then Venus is Lord 7. Squared by Saturn – no happy marriage – one of duty and/or convenience. She has endured the public humiliation of Bill Clinton’s infidelity but stuck with him perhaps because it was politically expedient to do so. Saturn, although in detriment is on the star Algenubi the majesty star. The marriage has brought her career success at a price.

Tom said on the other thread "Why would Venus in Scorpio besieged by Mars and Saturn in Leo be any worse than Venus in Scorpio?

Well the star Dubhe Alpha Ursa Major at 14 Leo 27 is a destructive star of the nature of Mars which would further afflict an already afflicted Venus. Venus itself is on a star in Serpens. Stars in that constellation can make very wise individuals or it can produce the very lowest of humanity. The affliction might tell us which.

Venus is also conjoining Mercury which is also afflicted by being square Saturn, being retrograde , conjoining the South node and exactly conjoining the star Unukulhai, Alpha Serpens, the heart of the serpent, at 21Scorpio20 a very unpleasant star indeed.

Donald Trump’s Venus at 25 Cancer44 conjoins the star Procyon, Canis Minor. 25 Cancer02. This star can take people to great heights but bring them crashing down.. Saturn conjoins Pollux Beta Gemini at 22Cancer 28 the bad boy of the twins which is cruel and tyrannical if tied up with malefics. Since Saturn is Lord 6 & 7 and Venus rules his MC this may well describe his route to business success.

What is disturbing about all this is that Hillary Clinton’s Venus directs (by 1 degree symbolic method) to 25 Capricorn 14 at the time of the election (which would be square her natal Pars Hyleg). Mars transits this degree in early November and opposes Donald Trump’s natal Venus on 3rd November and on his lunar return it is at 25Capricorn43 forming a very tight opposition to his natal Venus.

Mars is close to the star Terebellium Omega Sagittarius, a warrior star. That is the closest highest magnitude star but Mars is also exactly on a star in Vulpecula adding qualities of cunning to this war like opposition.What night this portend and who is the fox ?!
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tom said on the other thread "Why would Venus in Scorpio besieged by Mars and Saturn in Leo be any worse than Venus in Scorpio?


I remember writing that, but I can't find it. I think I meant that as a rhetorical question.

Thanks for mentioning the stars. Everyone concentrates on Trump's Regulus, but others are involved in both charts as you pointed out.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

thanks for the additional comments from morin.. what book are these ideas of his from? i might have it and can't recall reading them.

i think i already said this, but trumps venus is not besieged by mars and saturn, as it is broken due the aspects venus can make to sun/jupiter trine before it makes it to mars. i believe the idea of besiegement between between mars and saturn can be broken by aspects to the planet that looks besieged, as it casually does in trumps chart.. venus is besieged by saturn and pluto in trumps chart, but this is only for those using older concepts with the outer planets..

vicki,

excellent commentary with a focus on stars.. your knowledge on this topic is impressive!

as for the strength of the 8:02am time, i recall rejigging it to 7:57am way back when.. that puts mercury right on the ascendant and makes it automatically more dignified.. but maybe the stars say no to that too! either way, i still like the 218am time! - go figure!
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Vicki



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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:



as for the strength of the 8:02am time, i recall rejigging it to 7:57am way back when.. that puts mercury right on the ascendant and makes it automatically more dignified.. but maybe the stars say no to that too! either way, i still like the 218am time! - go figure!


Well I did some figuring !

Mercury is heavily afflicted and looking more closely at this, it's worse than I originally thought. First of all a retrograde planet is considered by Lilly to be accidentally debilitated.
Mercury went retrograde at 5.22pm the previous day at 21Scorpio27 seven minutes from Unukalhai Alpha Serpens at 21Scorpio20. On the day of her birth at 5 50 pm it made a square aspect to Saturn when at 21Scorpio20 ,exactly conjoining Unukalhai.
Unukalhai has a bad reputation - immorality, accidents, poisoning and infection. Ebertin testified to this, as do I. Robson used the following words to describe the star when tied up with Mercury - dishonourable, accused of forgery or theft of papers, ill health, narrow escapes.
With Saturn -secret crime, shrewd, cunning, intelligent.
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