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george s. patton
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Vicki



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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Therese, yes I am aware of the Babylonian exaltation system.


Out of interest have you compared the planets in both zodiacs for General Patton?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
Out of interest have you compared the planets in both zodiacs for General Patton?

I have somewhat, but didn't want to enter the discussion as my techniques are partially Indian and I haven't studied Patton's life to any extent. An obvious sign difference is Mars on the IC in Leo sidereally. Most astrologers would agree that Mars would be stronger in expression in the Sun's sign (masculine) than in a mutable female sign like Virgo.

We also find the ascendant lord Venus and the Moon in a masculine sign (Sagittarius). Then dispositor Jupiter is angular with Rahu, which makes them quite powerful by position at the nadir.

However, Virgo isn't an especially strong sign for Jupiter and Rahu, but they are in a mansion of the Sun (which means they support the Sun) and their dispositor is in Mars-ruled Scorpio. I would place the actual positions of the Sun (trine the NG), Rahu and Jupiter at the nadir, and Mars on the IC as more important than zodiac signs in Patton's case.

The lunar mansions are strongly reflected in Patton's chart. The Sun (strong by position, partile trine the NG and quincunx the Ascendant) is in its fall in Libra. But this particular lunar mansion is associated with Indra-Agni, both considered to be indomitable forces. Indra represents great physical and mental vigor, "a hundredfold" mental energy and determination, extremely inventive and resourceful. Indra was famous for his endless conquests and death defying feats.The Sun's dispositor in Sagittarius closely opposed by Saturn in its own triplicity helps to balance its Libra-fall position.

Otherwise there are no exalted planets or planets in fall in Patton's sidereal chart. I would have to study the charts of a number of generals to see if Patton's chart fits into a pattern for generals. As I see it, the most striking configuration in Patton's chart is the Leo Mars on the IC, Pluto in partile square. Mars is the 7th and 12th lord, fitting for the life of a general who confronts enemy forces. Then dispositor Sun is partile trine the NG, so that would represent his life emphasis as depositors bring the disposited planets to expression.
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the argument about a planet or a group of planets being in their dignities signifying a 'strong' chart,and the converse signifying a 'weak' chart, is a poor one since there are so many other factors to a planet's expressive quality and then on top of that, its accidental strength.

If one wants to compare the sidereal zodiac and the tropical measurement, then I think the best way is to look at time-lords and also to look at the concrete expressions of the planets. In Patton's case, we have some good indications in the sidereal zodiac when we regard his death: the ASC and Moon were in the bounds of 8th lord Jupiter via primary direction at the time of death, while the Sun was in Saturn's. With Patton's Hyleg, the ASC, in the bounds of either Mars or Saturn at birth, both angular, and in aspect with Venus, we are looking at ~60 years for his length of life (due to the maximum years of Saturn being 57, and Mars 66). The profection fell in Taurus in 1945, and Venus is in the 8th sign opposed to Saturn in Gemini. I read that Patton died in part from fluid in the lungs, clearly an opposition from Saturn in Gemini is relevant. We can say that this year in particular was going to be hard on Patton (and we could venture fatal when we regard that the Alcocoden isn't saying much more than middle age being ruled by either on of the malefics) as Venus is being overcome by both malefics in the revolution. Patton died in the second month of his year when the monthly profection fell into Gemini, activating natal Saturn with transiting Saturn present too. Interestingly, he had his accident as Saturn ingressed into Gemini on the 7th of December and while transiting Venus was being overcome by natal Mars to the degree.

With Mercury thoroughly unharmed in the revolution tropically and not really saying much at the time of death when we regard the monthly profections and transits, I think it is harder to make a case for the tropical. Of course, all of this only matters if we use Hellenistic and Arabic techniques.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
We can say that this year in particular was going to be hard on Patton (and we could venture fatal when we regard that the Alcocoden isn't saying much more than middle age being ruled by either one of the malefics) as Venus is being overcome by both malefics in the revolution.

With the Lahiri or Krishnamurti ayanamsa Patton's ascendant is in the bounds of Mars which seems more appropriate than Saturn. It's interesting to view Patton's November 1945 revolution (sidereal solar return or SSR) as it would be illustrated by today's siderealists of the Fagan school, set for the place of death, Heidelberg, Germany. (Patton's solar return is also the Ennead for the death period as his death was within the 40 day period after the revolution.)



Venus, the natal ascendant lord is starkly in the forefront at the Nonagesimal, squared by Mars and Saturn (the malefics Konrad noted) straddling the 7th cusp, the 7th being the Hellenistic Portal of Pluto or place of the end of life. These two malefics point directly at the ascendant, of course, and Saturn as the revolution ascendant lord is appropriately placed in the 7th.

Also natal Moon on the (equal) 8th cusp is above the revolution ascendant, receiving the square from transiting Jupiter, natal 8th lord.

If the revolution is set for the place of Patton's birth, the chart is relevant from another viewpoint. Mars and Saturn are at the midheaven while transiting Jupiter (natal 8th lord) is on the ascendant square natal Moon in the 4th, endings or matters after death (Hellenistic). The Fagan school considers planets not related to angles as essentially mute in return charts unless the Moon has very close aspects.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

thanks for your additional comments on patton which go into morin's approach.. i read book 21 and a couple other ones too, but still have yet to get a copy of his book on mundane astro..

i agree with konrads comments that i have shared below.

Konrad wrote:
I think the argument about a planet or a group of planets being in their dignities signifying a 'strong' chart,and the converse signifying a 'weak' chart, is a poor one since there are so many other factors to a planet's expressive quality and then on top of that, its accidental strength.


i was mostly thinking along a similar line here, but konrad has expressed it well.

tom, vicki and konrad,

thanks for your posts and looking more closely at pattons chart.. i haven't taken a real hard look ( other my midpoint comments), but appreciate you all got into the chart and were able to share something relevant. thanks.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm conflicted as to where is the best place to continue this discussion: here or on the traditional Forum. I I decided to post it here as this is where the discussion began. Today, Nov 22, 2016, at about 9:15 am EST I'm going to post a somewhat lengthy analysis using mostly Morin's methods via an example of his in Astrologia Gallica and compare that to George Patton's chart. I still have a little editing to do.

James Holden, the translator of AG voiced some reservations about the validity of the chart from AG that I'm using. I'm citing it not as gospel, but rather as a really good example of Morin's technique and then employing that technique to George Patton's chart. Both charts are essentially weak, yet one life turned out well (for the most part) and the other miserable. The idea is to try to find the reasons for the differences.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While reading Book 15 of Astrologia Gallica and working out the chart below and I remembered we were discussing how it was that a weak chart could produce a strong man and discussing just what it was that made a chart weak. The native and chart discussed by Morin are pretty much what we would expect. The chart is very weak and the life was miserable. I found only one paragraph in English about Morin's subject, Zaga Christ, a man who claimed to be an Abyssinian (modern day Ethiopia) Prince and further claimed he was cheated out of his wealth and position by his family. In his day he was largely thought to be an impostor, and his story false. He died in poverty.

Morin thought otherwise and believed the chart supported Christ's story. Morin gives us enough biographical information to work with and even if, as translator James Holden states, the time is suspect, this gives us a very good example of Morin's methods. Then we'll compare Christ's chart and unhappy life with that of George Patton whose chart is similarly lacking in essential dignity, but whose life turned out much better.

At first blush George Patton has little in common with Zaga Christ. Patton came from a once well-to-do, family from Virginia that was ruined in the American Civil War. Patton's grandmother moved the family to California. Confederate officers' land was confiscated by the Union. Far from running him out, his family was very fond of "Georgie," and he would grow to be very proud of them. Where they do have something in common (assuming Christ's story to be valid) is honor refused when it should have been granted. Yet Patton didn't die destitute, far from it. He married a wealthy woman. And he wasn't entirely discredited, just pushed aside when his talents were no longer considered necessary.

There is a poignant moment in the 1970 biopic of Patton's life which illustrates this last observation. The War has ended and the Allies are victorious. Bernard Montgomery, the British commander, is seen preparing himself to be received and honored by the British King for his contributions to the war effort. Patton, whose battlefield accomplishments were at least the equal of Montgomery's was relieved of command.

So what is in the respective charts? Neither chart has much in the way of essential dignity. In fact, in each chart, only one planet has any essential dignity. In both cases that planet is the third triplicity ruler* Both charts have 5 of the 7 traditional planets, under the horizon. Patton's chart has more planets essentially debilitated than ZC (four to one). Both can be said to be weak charts.

Let's take a closer look at Zaga Christ's chart using quotes from Book 15. The remarks in brackets are mine.




Morin:
Quote:
"All the planets are peregrine with the exception of Mercury "


[Putting aside whether planets in essential debility are or are not peregrine, Mercury is the 3rd triplicity ruler of air in Morin's system., so this isn't much. Without terms or faces, peregrine planets in Morin's system are pretty common. Yet this observation is about as good as it gets. "Peregrine" is often described as a stranger in a strange land. This is precisely what Christ was when he arrived in Paris, France. He may have been, at one time, someone of stature in his home country, but in France he wasn't anyone and in fact, many thought he was an imposter and of no significance at all. A king without a kingdom is a pretty sad spectacle. ]

Morin:
Quote:
"And connected by no benefic aspect if you make an exception of the corrupted sextile of Mercury "

[Mercury sextiles the Moon in Leo from the 6th house and is therefore corrupted]

Morin:
Quote:
" and also the corrupted trine of the Moon and Saturn."


[Saturn is less than two degrees from the ASC, but later he says Saturn is in the ASC (not 12) due to its latitude. Saturn is also in fall and that is probably why he says the trine is corrupted].

Morin
Quote:
" and the Sun is opposite the lot of fortune in the 12th."


[Morin does NOT reverse for night charts. SF calculates the POF 13 Taurus 14 for night and 16 Pisces 10 as Morin would have. This is a 3-degree orb - more than modern astrologers would have allowed. He also seems to regard the POF as indicating personal fortune or the lack of it]

Morin
Quote:
"All of which argued that the man would be unfortunate in his dignities, his actions undertaken, and his general fortune."




Keeping this last sentence in mind let's switch to Patton's chart. Like Christ only one planet has any dignity: Venus in Capricorn is the 3rd triplicity ruler in Morin's system. Only Venus and the Moon are above the horizon. Four of the 7 visible planets are in detriment. Mars does trine Venus, and the Sun and Moon are in sextile. Mars rules 11, military friends and Venus would give some of the social graces, but in Capricorn opposite Saturn, they might be forced. The man could be charming, but it didn't come naturally. Morin's conclusion above does not apply to Patton probably because the Sun and Moon, both in Mars' signs, quincunx the ASC (an aspect Morin used).

The light of sect is above the horizon, it's opposite is below. There is more harmony here than in Zaga Christ's chart despite having so many debilitated planets. Mercury in Patton's chart, like Christ's is square the MC-IC axis. However in Patton's chart Mercury rules the ASC and 4th houses, plus he is in mutual reception with the ruler of the MC. I would say the square shows Patton's difficulty with authority and a source of trouble through much of his career.

Both charts have a debilitated Saturn associated with the first house. Christ has Saturn in fall Rx smack on his ASC. Patton has Saturn in Cancer (detriment) in the first house (but second sign) also Rx. Morin describes Christ as at times melancholic, yet quick to anger. Both have Saturn in aspect to its ruler, but in Christ's case it is by sign, but Mars rules his ASC.

Lord ASC in both are in mutual reception. Mercury in Patton's chart is in mutual reception with Jupiter. This is weak as both planets are in detriment, but they can help each other. In Zaga Christ's chart Mars, Lord ASC, is in Gemini and Mercury is in Libra the detriment of Mars.

There is one more thing the charts have in common, and I've never seen a traditional authority mention this. I got it from Noel Tyl and I think it has some merit. Tyl observed that a native with The Sun, Venus, and Mercury in three different signs, had difficulty "integrating the personality." In other words there is a lack of harmony within. I'm not suggesting either native a personality disorder. Patton has been accused of this, but there is nothing in his medical records or observations made by those who worked closely with him to substantiate this. But there might be some difficulties in this area. Patton was no diplomat, and Christ could well have been frustrated and angry since few believed he was who he said he was.

In closing Patton's chart seems to have more "going on" or more to work with: specifically the Mercury Jupiter mutual reception, and the Mars Venus trine. The planets in Christ's chart simply don't work well together or more accurately, don't work together at all. Patton can get things together and make them work, but getting his ideas across without causing a ruckus doesn't seem to be part of him.

*Morin's triplicity system is slightly different than what we're used to. I'm using his system in all cases, and only his system, i.e. no terms or faces.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tom,

interesting hypothesis and astro speculation on your part.. i am unfamiliar with morins version and use of triplicity rulers, but i like your example of comparison between an example morin provided and yours on patton.

i see there is a page on skyscript that you have provided that goes into morins ideas of the use of triplicity here.. thanks for that as well.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morin.html
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an FYI, Morin is not the only astrologer to use a set of triplicity rulers other than the Dorothean. Lilly only used two (no participating ruler), and Schoener developed his own system. The Dorothean system is or seems to be based on sect. Morin's system is based on essential dignity.

The day ruler is the planet that is the domicile and exaltation ruler in an element. The night ruler is the ruler of the cardinal sign in that element. The ruler of the remaining sign is the participating ruler. This produces a table of rulers not that much different than the Dorothean system. But in Patton's chart it does make a difference. Venus is the participating ruler of earth. Mercury is exalted in and rules by domicile the sign Virgo. Saturn rules the Cardinal earth sign Capricorn, and Venus rules Taurus. However in the Dorothean system, Venus only has dignity by term using Ptolemaic terms as this is a night chart and she is the day ruler. Using Eggyptian terms she has no dignity. Patton's chart then is slightly stronger using Morin's triplicity system than it would be with the Dorothean system.

Morin did not use the terms (bounds) or faces calling them either "Arab fictions" or "Arab fantasies" depending on the English translation. This is sometimes used to demonstrate that Morin hated Arabs. I'm not so sure. While he probably had no more love for Arabs than any other Catholic in the 17th century, I haven't found any strong evidence in AG that he particularly hated them. Morin criticized everyone with whom he disagreed based on astrology. Cardan, an Italian Catholic, gets more abuse than anyone, followed by Ptolemy, an Alexandrian Greek Pagan.

Morin was a natural philosopher and briefly his attitude can be summed up this way: Astrology is natural. Therefore, if something does not occur in nature, it does not occur in astrology. He viewed the "effects" of triplicity to be perfectly natural whereas the terms and faces were man made. He probably had no idea that they were of Greek origin, but based on my readings, that wouldn't have mattered other than he might have changed "Arab fictions" to "Greek" or "Pagan fictions."
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

i had been thinking of these 2 charts - patton and the example that morin gave and i wonder if you know how relevant the nodal axis, or moon phase was for morin? the way i see it, pattons chart is more favourable on both these accounts with him being born moon exact waxing sextile to sun, while both lights are favourable to the nodal axis which happens to also have jupiter on the north node.. to me, all this speaks favourably about pattons chart.. if one only looks at tropical sign position of the planets in a chart, they could view pattons chart quite differently.. in the case of zaga christs chart - it is a balsamic end of cycle lunar phase with only one of the lights - the moon in contact with the nodal axis in a favourable way.. meanwhile the north node has saturn conjunct, as opposed to jupiter conjunct in pattons chart..

back to my question - i would be curious if morin even bothered with these kinds of considerations. thanks.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever come across a reference to the nodes in Astrologia Gallica. That is not the same thing as "isn't there." I do come across things I never expected to see at times. For example yesterday in book 16 (Aspects and Rays of the Planets) I came across a discussion of doryphory (spear carriers) - an ancient Greek technique.

I took a quick look at some of the charts in Book 23 (Revolutions) and they all have the north node calculated, but no mention is made of the nodes in the delineations that follow. In discussing one of his own revolutions Saturn is conjunct the north node, and although Saturn plays a major role in that chart, he doesn't mention either node as being significant. If I had to guess, I'd say he calculated them to determine if an eclipse was imminent.

I don't recall anything about lunar phases either, but it might be in there somewhere. About half the books of AG have been translated into English. We are all told that the first nine books contain no astrology, and books 10 through 12 plus Book 20 have not been translated into English. I'm not certain that astrology is absent in any of them, although he seems to be primarily establishing his own form of natural philosophy in the earliest books and giving his reasons for believing why the cosmos is set up the way he believes. He references the astrology in Book 9 here and there in the other books. All of that is to found the basis for his astrology. Moon phases are likely to be in there somewhere.

I just learned Holden published a book of the charts used in AG. I don't know if they are discussed or not. I'm going to have to find out.
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