Mutual Reception

1
Mutual Reception is ordinarily considered a strong testimony for perfection, but when is it not? I have a chart with mutual reception by domicile coming to meet by a sextile, but it did not perfect. The significators were in Cadent houses. The faster moving planet was in the radical 12th. I know that a significator in the 12th can sometimes mean a debility to perfect, but the Moon also supported the question in a fixed sign. I don't understand why it didn't perfect since most of the literature I've read says that Mutual Reception can override pretty much any debility to perfect. Any thoughts?

To add: there was nothing impeding the joining of significators. There was no retrograde motion, no prohibition, nothing like that. The faster moving significator (Mercury) in the 12th was also coming out of combustion but that's it.

2
StarzQ wrote:Mutual Reception is ordinarily considered a strong testimony for perfection, but when is it not? I have a chart with mutual reception by domicile coming to meet by a sextile, but it did not perfect.
Reception is one of three components that determine if an event will occur or not. The other two are dignity and aspect. If one of them is not adequate the event usually does not take place.

We always have to read the testiminies as they apply to the context, or the the reality of the situation.

Positive mutual reception often means, in general terms, an affinity or attraction or resonance between the significators. But if no significator will act then nothing will happen. For example: you meet someone and you both feel attracted and exchange phone numbers. If you or him stays in front of the computer or TV instead of picking up the phone, or if one is too shy or lazy, those things translate as accidental debility in horary, so no action is produced despite the affinity or attraction (reception) AND the possibility of an encounter (aspect).
StarzQ wrote:The significators were in Cadent houses.


If the context requires power to act from one or both significators then that can be the end of the story.
StarzQ wrote:The faster moving planet was in the radical 12th.
What matters is that that significator will likely not act.
StarzQ wrote:I know that a significator in the 12th can sometimes mean a debility to perfect, but the Moon also supported the question in a fixed sign.


How did the Moon support exactly? What is th importance of the sign being fixed in this question? Please explain or maybe share the chart. There can be contradictory testimonies and part of interpretation is to balance them and come up with an answer.
StarzQ wrote:I don't understand why it didn't perfect since most of the literature I've read says that Mutual Reception can override pretty much any debility to perfect. Any thoughts?


As far as receptions are concerned it cannnot get better than MR. But reception cannot replace dignity.

Be careful with "literature", it can be wrong. Even the best authors change their minds as their knowledge evolves. In horary there is a handful of fixed technical rules. Beyond those many "rules" can be interpreted differently depending on the context and subject being investigated. And beyond that thre is a place for the subjectivity of the astrologer that has been called upon to answer a question. And even beyond, there are things we simply do not know. Horary astrological knowledge, while pretty solid at this time, is still evolving and being refined.

StarzQ wrote:To add: there was nothing impeding the joining of significators. There was no retrograde motion, no prohibition, nothing like that. The faster moving significator (Mercury) in the 12th was also coming out of combustion but that's it.


If it was still combust or under the rays those would add to accidental debility and thus inaction.

I hope this theoretical anwer helps. We can comment in more detail if we see the chart and know the question.
--
Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net

3
Thank you Felipe. Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. I guess I'm having a hard time with Horary and all of its "rules". I think the subjectivity of horary is bothering me some. I was so sure this chart looked positive but obviously I was wrong. I was aware there were a couple of debilities but I thought, overall, the chart looked promising. I had a hard time weighing the strength of significators because I had read somewhere that significators in MR trade places so to speak. Plus, the significator, Mercury, that was supposed to be the one to act, was in its own term. I just could not come to a judgment that I felt 100% confident in, given all the contradictory rules of horary.

I will post the chart and you can take a look if you want. This was a romantic horary and I wanted to know if I would meet with the love of my life again. There is something that played out. Do you want to see if you can maybe figure out what happened? And I will fill you in afterwards?

http://i65.tinypic.com/4vfpy9.png

4
Hi StarzQ,
StarzQ wrote:I was so sure this chart looked positive but obviously I was wrong. I was aware there were a couple of debilities but I thought, overall, the chart looked promising.
The question has to be clearly understood and has to be distilled to its gist. A lot of the problems astrologers encounter are not technical, they are simply because they are answering the wrong question.

So, explain to me what you mean by: "meet with the love of my life again."

Is he a person you met before and is expecting to meet again now? Or a completely new person who you would like to be the love of your life? Are you talking about a chance meeting or is there a situation where the possiblity to meet is known? Meeting as: hello let's have tea! As having a night of fun together? Falling deeply in love? Divorcing and entering a relationship? Having an extra-marital affair? Etc?

Then you read the chart testimonies against the question, the expectations; that is: the picture in your mind and the conditions of your life. Many questions are simply not possible to have a positive answer because the life situation does not allow it in reality. But often, we need an astrologer to come and tell us that?
StarzQ wrote:I had a hard time weighing the strength of significators because I had read somewhere that significators in MR trade places so to speak.


Make sure to know where exactly so that you may begin assing the quality of the source of your information.
StarzQ wrote:Plus, the significator, Mercury, that was supposed to be the one to act, was in its own term.
No, Mercury is not supposed to be the one to act because it is faster. Who acts is determined by the context and MAY BE reflected in the chart by accidental dignity IF power to act is relevant to the context. Plus, Mercury is in detriment. That overrides and minor dignity it may also have. Jupiter is also in detriment. I am quite sure that such debilities played out in the outcome.
StarzQ wrote:I just could not come to a judgment that I felt 100% confident in, given all the contradictory rules of horary.
Some rules may appear contradictory, some are just plainly wrong and people keep repeating them. And it takes time and experience to study a number of different scenarios.
StarzQ wrote:Do you want to see if you can maybe figure out what happened? And I will fill you in afterwards?
Yes. I will comment once I understand the question.
--
Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net

5
Hi Felipe, no it's someone I've known for a long time. The timing was always wrong for us to be together...like one of us would be in a relationship and the other would tire of waiting and find someone else etc... Its a long story and very personal. But yes, the question is more like will we be together. I want to communicate with him- there's so much I want to say to him and ask him but I don't know how it's possible due to us both currently in other relationships. I knew when I cast this chart that it would take a miracle or something unforseeable. I did not see a way this would happen. I thought since I asked "will we ever" it could possibly take years. But something did happen...I'm still unsure if this is reflected in the chart. Let's see if you can get an idea from the chart.

6
Felipe, just to make sure- you're saying that reception, aspect and dignity all have to be present for an outcome to be positive. Therefore both significators in detriment would make a negative outcome all of the time? Or would we have to look at the Moon to determine that?

7
Btw, there was no intention for an affair when I asked the question. That would be easily forseeable. It would be easy to contact him but the thing is that I won't do it. I would have to be single.

8
Hi StarzQ and Felipe,

StarzQ,

I am just a beginner. However, I can say that that a planet wld not receive another other planetat its detriment. No way.
i.e. Mercury will not reiceve Jupiter in Sag, as Mercury is detriment in Sag.

Felipe,

With regards to your comments about "if faster applies to slower one or vice versa" Cld. you pls, tell us how we understand this, I always thought it is always the faster planet that applies .
Breeze

9
Hi Breeze, where did you learn that? That a significator can't receive if it's in detriment? I've never heard that.

Edit: I thought you meant "returning the light" but it cannot be that according to the information I found. The significator has to be combust or retro in order to return light.


"According to Al-Biruni and Abu Mash'ar, return of light occurs when one of the significators is either retrograde or combust. "

But...


"Bonatti makes it plain that simply having significators applying out of cadent houses, neither one being combust or retrograde, is sufficient for a return of light with loss and a denial of perfection. To illustrate the case, he writes:

Take the example of a certain man who had a load on his shoulder which he could not carry. He gave it to another and that person gave it back to the man lacking the strength to carry it. The return of the load was not useful but harmful to him. And thus, if a question was put about any thing, the matter is destroyed and annulled?the debility of both planets causes this.

Schoener is extremely brief on the matter of return of light and only describes the receiving significator as combust or retrograde. Dariot also considers the combustion or retrogradation of the receiving significator only, and seems a little confused on matters of reception, degrees of profitability in the return of light and the linking of return of light with collection of light in the same short section. "

Lots of differing opinions it seems on the matter of "return of light"


Then again I think it was Lilly who said that even two significators in opposition and detriment are in reception and could perfect with support from the Moon.

10
StarzQ

Mutual reception is an important testimony in any chart reading but I wouldn't say that any one technical apparatus is the only thing of importance in a chart, and it may not always be wise to see horary as a game of top trumps to see what 'wins' in the chart so to speak. The whole thing is like a story that is being unfolded, and our job is to tease out that story and understand the picture that it paints.

In this case you are shown as Jupiter, in detriment and in a cadent house, so things could be better for your signification. Often when people are lacking in dignity and in a cadent house like this they can feel sometimes overwhelmed or needing to recuperate - either sick physically or that feeling of being drained or empty or needing to refuel. It can be a time or repose or of taking a back seat or retreating from the busy-ness and business of the world for a time - physically or just mentally.

He is shown as Mercury, also in detriment, in the 12th house, leaving combustion. There is a lot here that may indicate he's not really emotionally or mentally in a place where he is ready or prepared to continue a relationship with you.

The Moon has last aspected Mercury by trine and now continues to carry the light of Mercury to Venus, who is angular, benefic and full of dignity in this chart. Unfortunately this aspect is too appealing to contend with the poor state of your own dignities and your own imminent aspect by square, albeit with reception.

Neither of you are in a good state and the square between you may not indicate the most healthy of relationship even if you do receive one another and embrace one another to whatever extent that you can. Sometimes a situation has not been very healthy or there is a lot of tension and old wounds and it can leave both parties feeling like they've come out of a war situation or come through too turbulent a time. Sometimes the best thing we can get out of a relationship with someone we love dearly is to recognise that they were instrumental in helping us grow in a way we probably wouldn't or couldn't have done alone. But equally sometimes what once was helpful and healthy and helped steer us toward that growth has now served its purpose and further growth and further fulfilment can only come from appreciating what once was and respecting the feelings that were there and then move forward and away. The mutual reception has enough there that you may end up doing this dance one more time or there may still be some unfinished business together or it can have a sense of "for old time's sake" and you can both feel like, for a temporary time, you'll relax or return to how things were once up on a time, but it's a temporary thing, fleeting, and ultimately all things move with time and I suspect that this relationship, as it was, has had its time.

In this case the light of Mercury comes to Venus with the aspect with less friction and Venus is just so powerfully placed in this chart - angular, trine the descendant and full of dignity. Venus could be many things and perhaps another woman is one of them, but it could equally be something to do with career or something else. What seems evident though is that this is a very appealing aspect.

I can understand why you may see this chart as positive, but I think if you look at the whole story of the horary perhaps imagining it was a horary for someone else, I think that the only good thing we can really see in this chart is that mutual reception. And ultimately there is just too much else going on in the chart to put too much confidence in it.

I'm sorry, I know there is probably a lot of hurt here and a lot of difficult and raw emotions invested in this horary. Mutual reception can be a saving grace in many horaries, but it's not a magic wand that trumps all ills in the chart. It's just another testimony to weigh up when coming to a conclusion. You say, in the original post:
There was no retrograde motion, no prohibition, nothing like that.
I hope you can follow my post here and see that the Moon is in fact translating light in this case from Mercury to Venus and how important that is in reading the chart. Also how we shouldn't ignore the dignities of our planets nor that they lack accidental fortitude either. I wonder, if there was no mutual reception, would you still have seen this chart as positive?
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

11
Hey Paul, thank you for your sympathy, I really appreciate it. Yes, I was feeling sick, not physically, but emotionally. I had been despairing for a couple of years due to communication being abruptly cut off off with him. I went from full of faith (9th), to faithless and hardened.

When I first read this chart, I thought the Moon translating light from Mercury to Venus might mean a reunion or that we somehow get married. I think I needed that hope at the time because I was full of despair.
Last edited by StarzQ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

12
Any other ideas of what Venus might represent? I don't want to say what I think it is yet in case anyone else wants to try to read the chart.

Just to add: I'm pretty OK now. I'm not nearly as hurt as I was. I'm still not 100% great, but I'm fine now, really.