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gilded cage / trump presidency
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject: gilded cage / trump presidency Reply with quote

i want to wish donald trump and the american people all the best in this new chapter in the us presidency with donald trump as president.. i suppose it doesn't officially start until jan 20th 2017 (inauguration day) .. i think it is usually set for approx noon, with the actual time not confirmed until after the fact.. below is a chart for this day at 12 noon.

upload pics


i am personally concerned for donald trump and hope that my concerns are fully irrational.. it remains to be seen how trump will do as president of the usa and i do want to wish him the best. so, maybe my anxiety over all of this is unwarranted.. i feel the chart for this inauguration day is not all that great, but perhaps some astrologers here can provide an alternative view on it..

perhaps we can collectively look at trumps chart - solar returns / lunar returns and etc and provide some shared ideas on the strength and merits of this new role he will be taking on as president of the usa.. thanks
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Vicki



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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I also wish Donald Trump and the American people well.

I will have a go at looking at this inauguration chart.
Firstly I want to draw attention to the significant connections Donald Trump has with the USA mundane chart (2.17 am). His Part of Fortune is close to the USA MC and on this inauguration chart also. At sunrise on election day the Moon conjoined his Part of Fortune.
Also his Point of Life conjoins the Sun on this chart.

The next application of the Moon in this chart is to Neptune and then to Venus
If we regard the chart as the natal chart of his presidency my initial reaction is that I see a favourable outcome. The Moon is angular in House 7 (whole sign) and Venus Lord 1 is in the fortunate House 11. One might be quite pleased with such a configuration in a natal chart!

However the first application to Neptune is of some concern - death, confusion, aspiration etc. etc. Also the Moon itself is in the first decan of Scorpio ruled by Mars. I have personally found those early degrees of Scorpio to be combative.

The placement on 9 degrees ( see my thread about 8-9 degrees) seems to be sometimes a death degree and has been present in US presidential history. I consider the possibility of assassination attempts especially with its application to Neptune.

This 9 degrees Scorpio conjoins Vladimir Putin's Asc/Venus conjunction. This Moon in the house of open enemies/partners is significant and maybe descriptive of the relationship with Russia. Venus Lord 1 conjoins Mars Lord 7. Maybe the two have the potential to get on? However Chiron is between them. James knows more about Chiron than me. Neptune close by also - aspirational or confused?

Donald Trump's presidency will be characterised by controversy and turbulence despite this favourable configuration. Uranus in Cetus rising before the asc defines this. It is also opposed by Jupiter the dispositor of Venus and Mars.

Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump share a partile conjunction with each other! Trump has Jupiter on 17 Libra 27 and Putin has Saturn on 17 Libra 27. That cannot be ignored. I saw this a few weeks ago and it seemed to me that these two were fated to get together.

However how a Leo rising and a Scorpio rising will find accord I do not know ! (I'm rather hoping that Donald Trump is in fact a very early Virgo!).

We live under the shadow of the catastrophic Saturn/Jupiter conj of 2000 which this year and next remains on the Aldebaran/Antares axis and so there is no immediate end in sight to the current world situation. We are also shadowed by the Saturn/Mars conj of August this year which was on Antares.

We will eventually pull away into the more minor stars of the Hyades only to confront the danger of the Saturn/Pluto conj of Jan 2020 which coming towards the end of Donald Trump's presidency falls on 22 Capricorn between Pluto and the MC of this chart and squaring Jupiter and its opposition to Uranus. I don't like the look of that. Saturn/Pluto are part of a so called "war cycle ".

The last thing to happen in his presidency after the 2020 election will be a total Solar eclipse on 14th Dec at 23 Sagittarius exactly conjoining Saturn in the 8th house of this chart which clearly doesn't bode well.
This solar eclipse conjoins Donald Trump's radical South Node/Moon.

I consider I am seeing a chart with some favourable testimony but with very challenging transiting events currently and towards the end of his presidency in particular.

As a Brit my focus has been on Donald Trump's presidency and world affairs.
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Vicki



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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was trying to upload charts without success. Image hoster problems.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When looking at inauguration chart keep in mind the angles and the position of the Sun are nearly the same for every inauguration because it is held at the same day and same time every four years. The positions and therefore the essential dignities of all the planets including the ones that rule those angles can and do vary.


Deb posted the 2016 Aries Ingress on FB with a note that this will be the ingress in effect at the time of the inauguration. She also noted this is the way it was done in the past, and that made me mad at myself for not recalling that fact, when I was looking at it earlier in the year. Perhaps looking at both using the Ingress as the radical chart could pry loose some of the meanings of those angles.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom - will copy my FB post over to here - I am also adding a couple of follow up comments that give the link to Nina's article and some reference to where the technique can be studied for its historical use.

...many of you will be familiar with the chart below - it is this year's ingress chart for America, set for Washington DC. Those who have looked at it before, know what a horrible chart it is. It certainly describes the events of this year very precisely. Some astrologers have used it to try to predict the winner of the election. Nina Gryphon, for example, wrote some very interesting comments about it in her article about the astrology of the US election, and I'll post the link for that below. One thing that any astrologer can immediately see is that this election was dominated by the theme of heightened anger, fear, and the choice between 'the lesser of two evils' - with its angular malefic and the asc-desc axis dominated by two opposing planets that are both powerfully angular, but suffering essential debility in their own signs of detriment.
What many astrologers will not realise is that this ingress chart historically held much greater importance in mundane astrology than simply demonstrating the overriding political theme of the year. For astrologers of the Arabic era, this chart represents the accession chart for the new ruler that comes into power during this solar revolution, and for them it presented much more significance than that of the individual's nativity, or the moment that they took power. Essentially this chart was historically used to define the nature of their reign, the effect they have upon their people, the policies they introduce, whether they will be loved or hated, seen to be a wise person or a brutal tyrant, and it was also used to predict the length of their reign and when it will be brought to an end.
I am not going to analyse this chart because the symbolism is pretty obvious to all astrologers. This is a bad year for America and the person who takes control of the country during this period will act as the focus for all the issues this chart displays.
I don't want to get too involved in the astrology of the election personally - it is not my field of expertise and it actually troubles me too much to contemplate the implications. I might also add that the UK also had a new ruler this year, and has also experienced the shock of division - our ingress chart was also a notably bad one. Whereas the US ingress chart has Mars rising with Saturn in the 1st (currently experiencing a return), the UK's ingress chart has Mars culminated on the MC with Saturn in the 10th. So we are two nations currently undergoing trauma. I haven't much more I want to say except to recommend this chart to the attention of the astrologers who want to follow the details of Trump's presidential reign, and to express my own sympathy for anyone currently feeling shocked and distressed by recent political changes.
Let's remember now that we are all in this together, that many people throughout the world have had to suffer political disturbance much more directly than those of us in democratic nations have ever had to worry about, and let's keep a focus on what we can all do to lift the gloom. I sincerely hope Trump's presidency will be less volatile and harsh than this chart suggests it will be.

See it bigger here

For anyone interested in understanding how important the ingress chart was historically for representing the defining nature of a new ruler's reign, I recommend *The Astrological History of Masha'allah* by E.S. Kennedy & David Pingree. This is a really important text on traditional techniques, which mainly comprises of a whole series of these charts being analysed to show how they correspond to the events and length of a ruler's political reign. It is not easily found in bookshops but I see there are some secondhand copies going on Abebooks for around $25-$35, which looks like a very good price for such an important academic text-book.
https://www.abebooks.com/.../the-astrological-history-of.../
- incidentally, this use of the technique does not consider anything other than the Aries Ingress - the chart stays in force for the whole of the year, regardless of whether the angles are fixed or not.

The link to Nina Gryphon's article is - http://www.ninagryphon.com/astrology-of-the-2016.../
(Although Nina Gryphon did not call the result correctly, I still think she is to be commended for showing the astrological reasoning of her arguments so clearly - which makes it possible for any astrologer to distrust the faith she placed in the detriment and retrograde asc-ruler.)
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unique_astrology



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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rough right from the beginning.

In Trump's 2017 precession corrected SR located to Washington the Sun culminates at 83°23' as return Saturn is in opposition on the IC at 84°07'. When return Saturn is on the Asc (193°07') it is opposed by return Sun on the Desc (193°43'). With the Sun and Saturn reversed on the MC/IC axis that is 3 very stressful Sun/Saturn oppositions that will be swept by the progressing angles of the solar return.

Here is the period of time I think will be very important for Trump and the country. It is a very strong transit of Saturn as it stations on points in the Trump and Sibly charts. Jun 25 through October 10 2017. Saturn to Trumps Sun and Moon (conjunct his Moon and opp his Sun – beginning when 1 degree before through 1 degree after exact [in right ascension) and stationing there just 4 days after the total solar eclipse of Aug 21 that spans the contiguous 48 states, is opposite the Sibly Moon and conjoins Trumps Mars and Asc.. During that time that transit Saturn opposes Sibly Mars and squares Sibly Neptune.

On July 1 his secondary progressed Moon will conjoin his progressed Saturn. That will be very potent as the conjunction is on the zenith of his secondary progressed chart (Q2 Mean Quotidian angles) in Washington. And as posted before things just leep rolling along for him through October. And hopefully beyond that.

On Aug 21, 2017, the date of the total solar eclipse that lands on his DC Asc and has it’s Saturn on his natal Sun-Moon opposition his secondary progressed chart has his progressed Mars and Neptune (terror) on the MC.
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waybread



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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a sardonic view that the winner of an American presidential election inherits the poisoned chalice. (Cf. Obama's inauguration in 2008 coinciding with the onslaught of the Great Recession, or Truman's inauguration in 1948 coinciding with the onset of the Cold War and Russification of eastern Europe and nuclear arms race.)

Had Clinton prevailed, she would have faced the Republican chair of the House Oversight Committee pledging to investigate her for the next two years; and fringe Trump supporters threatening a revolution. A Republican Senate might still have declined her Supreme Court nominees; and any programs requiring congressional approval (like taxation and distributing Federal funds) would be stonewalled, as Obama's were by a Republican Congress.

As it is, Clinton will probably return to her family foundation, campaigning on behalf of select Democratic candidates, and lecture circuit. She'll do just fine as the also-ran.

Given the above Astro-analysis, would a Clinton presidency have experienced a better run? Apparently not.
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Donna Chang



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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As if I needed more reason to be terrified. With a Republican majority in the House and Senate Trump is the most powerful U.S. president since Franklin Roosevelt.

This is the 3rd night of street protests in San Francisco and Oakland. Most people are shocked and stupified. This is grim.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

11 November 2016, USA Today: Anti-Trump protests, some violent, erupt for 3rd night nationwide:



Donald Trump's Quarter Election Ennead (10 day period):



The 40 day Ennead period can be divided into four 10 day periods. This Election Ennead has an Aries ascendant with both natal and transiting Mars angular. The transiting Moon is sandwiched between Mars and Pluto. Ascendant lord exalted Mars in the MC degree, Jupiter trine the Zenith point and angular Sun indicate his success.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not yet quite time to take leave of our senses and run to our safe spaces.

Quote:
As if I needed more reason to be terrified. With a Republican majority in the House and Senate Trump is the most powerful U.S. president since Franklin Roosevelt.


Harry Truman LBJ, Jimmy Carter and George W Bush had majorities in both Houses through most if not all of their Administrations. Bill Clinton had it for two years - until he passed a tax hike. The GOP majority in the Senate is going to be 51-49 and they're stuck with John McCain as one of them. For all the caterwauling about the GOP stonewalling Obama's agenda, I can't think of any policy they stopped, plus he had the majority in both houses for his first two years. That's how Obamacare passed. Even the Democrats voted against his budgets. They did stop one Supreme Court nominee, but the Democrats held up over 100 federal bench nominees made by George W. Bush, then changed the Senate rules so it couldn't be done to them. Furthermore that is the duty of the Congress - to check the President.

The GOP going into the election had control of more governorships and state legislatures than at any time in their history and on Tuesday they may have increased that, and if my information is correct, they even increased their hold on the state's town councils. The lost a little in the US Senate - that's it. They solidified their hold everywhere else. It was more than Hillary Clinton who lost on Tuesday.

Regardless of who was elected the job is going to be very difficult. The economy stinks - slowest "recovery" in history. The domestic issues are huge, as are foreign affairs. However it is highly unlikely that the world is about to end.

But where this is instructive astrologically is that it demonstrates the confirmation bias of an awful lot of people that are practicing mundane astrology. A coin toss does better than the results posted by Mark. I won't go so far as to say the ones that got it wrong could have got it right with a little objectivity, because I'm not persuaded that it can be done consistently at all. In other words, the ones that got it right could be just as biased. The best hope was Bernadette Brady's system which took the astrologer out of it completely, but she predicted Clinton - not based on her personal preference, but because of the position of Venus. That is what it is regardless of whom she would have voted for. However for the third time since the beginning of the 20th century (if I recall this right) that didn't work. Her prediction was Clinton but after that Republicans as far as the eye can see. I wouldn't' write off her ideas because of this one blip. It might be possible to refine it. But I think we can pretty much give up on the natal chart business.

So for 2020 here is what to look for when the astrologers once again team up with the liberal Democrat. If the prediction contains nasty cracks about the candidate they think will lose, ignore the prediction. If it contains recommendations for sainthood for the person they want to win, ignore the prediction. If it contains world ending consequences if A or B is elected forget it. If the prediction discusses relevant charts and discusses them, without mentioning personalities, save the prediction even if it is wrong. There are ways to learn from it.

Time to put on our big boy pants. If Donald Trump turns out to be a terrible President, the world won't end and it can be changed in only four years.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have reopened this thread after having to lock it due to some fractious comments. I have deleted two posts here outright and also done a bit of minor editing to Tom's post.

Let me just recap for everyone this forum exists for discussion of mundane astrology. Its not like some FB astrology groups where flaming or partisan politics seems to be the order of the day. And its not a soapbox to set out our political views either on the right or left. We all have political opinions. I know I do. But I save them for more appropriate locations. Lets face it. Noone would pay any of us for the quality of our political punditry.

This kind of approach is all the more necessary just now in regards American politics when the country is arguably the most polarised it has ever been in living memory.

I think its fine to bring in historical precedents but analysis of the contemporary political situation {or the Obama Presidency) is fraught with controversy and a lot of emotion just now. I ask all members here to exercise particular sensitivity and caution at present in regards American topics.

Thanks

Mark Cullen
Mundane Forum Moderator
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi vicki,

i am curious where you are getting the angle data for putin.. all times for him are speculative including his birthdate as i understand it.. i think oct 7 1952 is mostly the consensus with an approx sunrise time - libra or scorpio rising, but i don't know that anything has been confirmed.. i haven't studied it, but i know the russian astrologers had made some work of it and 2 russian astrologers had independently come up with a libra rising 24/42 off an 835am time for st. petersburg.

as for the inauguration chart i have posted up top - seems to me that once a time is confirmed the chart is quite relevant.. i am looking at the ruler of the midheaven and sun in this chart and how it is ruled by saturn in sag.. unless the inauguration happens after 1249pm, that is an 8th house saturn as i read it, ruling over the sun and midheaven.. my brother pointed out how trump has made all his money ( what he didn't inherit i suppose) off selling real estate.. i really don't know much about the man and since i avoid television and the popular media outlets, i am a bit in the dark about a lot of how trump is seen publicly speaking. i just thought it wasn't a great signature to have the saturn in the 8th with the ruler of the ascendant applying to it.. i didn't think it was great to see it ruling the sun and midheaven in this house either.. maybe someone can set me straight on all that..

tom and deb,

thanks for pointing out the importance of the aries ingress chart and the book suggestion. it is funny, but when i was considering the aries ingress chart and this election with trump and hillary i kept on making a connection to the mars rising and trumps chart thinking this was trumps year - given this coincidence.. of course i over - rode this consideration and honestly believe i was influenced by all the brilliant astrologers and political pundits who figured hillary was a shoe in.. that and the fact i am not all that good at astrology must be factored into this too..

as for the aries ingress chart, mashallah might have said to stick with the aries ingress chart for the whole year in an important year, but i think mashallah also said that the jupiter/saturn conjunction was very important and that the aries ingress chart would have to be factored into the centrality of this important conjunction.. now, i only read a few of the ben dykes books, including volume 2 of astrology of the world, along with that ibn ezra book 'the astrology of the world' that seemed to say all this.. i am not sure how one orders their astrology in terms of what is important, but it seems to me using the aries ingress chart, especially with a mutable rising sign - only goes so far... i have ordered this book you recommended deb, at a price of 66$ canadian.. i look forward to reading it and hope it will she more light on the use of the aries ingress chart and how i can take all this in.

bob

thanks for your comments.. i see marjorie orr was also highlighting the eclipse data in relation to trumps presidency... here is a link to her comments.. perhaps she read yours first? - http://star4cast.ca/the-great-american-solar-eclipse-2017-inspiring-reckless-actions/

i haven't looked at it. i haven't looked at trumps lunar or solar returns for the next while either.. lots of astrology to consider. thanks for pointing this out to me.

i would like to take a diversion here on something you mention about saturn transits.. i think everyone saw the saturn transit to trumps full moon chart - which is in the process of becoming more exact.. that he is taking on more work and responsibility goes without saying and of course an astrologer wondering about who was going to win could have considered this too.. i have a mixed bag feeling about saturn transits when they are oppositions.. i tend to think of them as positive.. now the saturn to a conjunction of moon developing here in trumps case - is more challenging.. i am not sure how i can view that positively, but i hope the best for trump and that he can work thru all this.. moon rules his 12th house.. letting go of the past is never easy, but maybe this is some of the lesson for him here with this saturn transit to his natal moon.. i don't know his attitude towards women, but from what little i heard, it wasn't presented very well.. he seems to me to be like a guy with a trophy type wife, but i say that without having a clue about him and how he got to where he is.. perhaps he is a really sweet guy with women, but either way i suspect he is very conservative and attractive to more conservative types of women with the saturn/venus conjunction in his chart..

i am going to stop here for now.. thanks for the additional comments from everyone.. i concur with mark and hope that skyscript can remain a place of relative sanity devoid of the craziness i associate with flakebook.. thanks..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along with the present Mars-Pluto/Uranus/Jupiter T-square that has brought so many earthquakes in the last hours, the greatest being a 7.8 quake in New Zealand, the rebel Petition aimed at the Electoral College has over 4 million signatures and continues to grow. It seems impossible for an election change to happen, but it will be interesting to watch the progress of the Petition in coming days.
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we can move forward to the event chart of the Electoral College, which meets on December 19.

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/electoral-college-crash-course-heres-what-they-actually-do/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States)

The Electoral College does not meet as a national body but does physically meet by state in their state capitol.

I've not had much luck ascertaining a start time for the process, but maybe some of you East Coast folks know when your state electors will convene.

While it is unlikely that the Electoral College would confirm anyone besides Trump, because they are nominated by the political party that won their states, it is possible if they (a) select someone else, or (b) Trump dies, resigns, or becomes demonstrably unfit for office by December 19.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
While it is unlikely that the Electoral College would confirm anyone besides Trump, because they are nominated by the political party that won their states, it is possible if they (a) select someone else, or (b) Trump dies, resigns, or becomes demonstrably unfit for office by December 19.


Dont you think this is rather clutching at straws? I know there are stages of grief..... I cant be sure if your in the denial or bargaining stage.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/

Mark
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