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5th vs. 7th house
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waybread



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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: 5th vs. 7th house Reply with quote

I understand that Lilly assigned the 7th house to matters relating to affairs of the heart-- apparently ranging from noncommittal to marriage. But there is an alternative, possibly more modern interpretation that assigns the 5th to casual love affairs, in the same vein as amusements of various kinds: the flirting or casual sexual encounter that someone might undertake more for temporary fun than for commitment. It's right up there with the 5th as the house for gambling, the theater, and horse-racing.

I am interested in hearing how you-all assign questions like "Will he text me?" "Will he ask me out on a date?" or "Will he 'like' me on Facebook?" Questions where there seems to be a crazy little something going on, but it's hard to glean more than that.

I could see assigning such questions to the 7th, but then sometimes in this type of question the querent's significator or the moon shows up in the 5th house, and the significator of the 7th doesn't seem so telling.

I get that the 5th is the turned 11th house from the 7th: maybe this is more of a friendship or the quesited thinks of the querent as a friend, even though this might be a "friend with benefits." The 11th is also the house of hopes and wishes for the future, apparently what the querent hopes could happen to the relationship in the future.

In medical astrology the 8th rules sexual function, but I don't think it otherwise has much to do with "Will he call me?" types of questions the morning after.

How do you handle them?
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread

If we forget about romance for a moment, we'll see that the 7th is all our interpersonal relationships. When we do business horaries for example, in the matter of buying and selling perhaps, the person with whom we do business is the 7th house. If we needed to arrange some time or meeting with such a person, that person would still be the 7th house. Of course we'd be interested, perhaps, in looking at our 2nd house as well.

When it comes to the 5th house, we see all manner of recreation and creative pursuits and those things which develop or spring from them, or those places in which they exist or in which we perform them - so we have all the places of the arts, pleasures of all kinds, including sexual, as well as children (the product of procreation and sex).

When people ask about will they go on a date, we might well imagine the date or the venue for the date is the 5th house. But even though we have a habit, in the modern world, of never directly asking what we really feel, the real question behind this question is one of romance with this person in particular. If they were asking "will the date go well" and by that they mean, will the restaurant be good and will the music be just right, and will the food be good, well then we might at a stretch here consider that the person is asking a fifth house question. But they aren't asking this. Their focus is on the other person and the relationship they are having with them, even if that relationship is just for this one moment and this one date. After all, when we think back to buying and selling, we don't need long lasting business affairs that span weeks and months and years to assign that person to the 7th.

Therefore no matter how fleeting or long lasting the relationship is, even if the relationship never gets past the dessert menu, the question on the querent's mind for these questions is really about romance and what the chances are of a good romantic moment or relationship with this person is, and all such questions belong to the 7th.

The only time I would ever consider using the 5th would be if the person was using some kind of dating app the sole purpose of which was some kind of anonymous sex and they're really asking about sexual matters.

Of course the other side of this is that I prefer to get the person to acknowledge what they really are asking and so they seldom care if the other person will like them on facebook, what they care about is the conclusions they will make if he does or doesn't. And then of course they'd likely ask another question and so on and so on never actually asking what's on their mind, but preferring to ask every other question around it instead.

There's a quote from Olivia Barclay's book on horary that is appropriate here, I've always liked this quotation and I think it's a shame other horary books don't include this kind of thing which is just as important as all the technical apparatus:

Horary Astrology Rediscovered, Olivia Barclay, p52
Quote:
A question asked with naive simplicity is better than a carefully contrived one. If your question is indirect, so will the answer be. Sometimes it may take a while to understand your own motive in asking a question. We live in an age of euphemisms, when directness and forthright honesty - so necessary in asking questions in horary - is a strangely rare and unpracticed art. Some people are incapable of an honest approach, saying "Is this a good moment to start a new venture?" and hoping you will think they mean a business enterprise, when in reality they mean "Will I have a love affair with so-and-so?". The astrologer must know the real question because judgement depends on understanding it, and understanding depends on the house selected

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waybread



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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, thanks for your prompt and detailed reply.

But then what would you make of one or more important signifiers in a casual dating situation landing in the 5th house? Or the 11th house of friends, for that matter? It seems to me we have all sorts of relationships that aren't 7th house matters. They might be 6th house (volunteer, nurse,) 9th house (professor,) or 10th house (boss.) If the employee asks for an appointment with his boss for a one-on-one discussion of a proposal, does that switch to becoming a 7th house matter? What about an appointment with a trusted investment banker?

I get your answer that these would all switch to the 7th house, but then what about a meeting with three people or four people that isn't strictly one-on-on?

Maybe I'm asking, in today's world of more casual forms of contact and more fluidity in personal relationships (like the on-line boyfriend she's never actually met) whether Lilly actually stretches far enough, or is sufficiently nuanced with a catch-all 7th house. Especially when the fifth house pops out as capturing significant planets.

One thing you've posted previously, that I find very helpful, is that the chart should tell a plausible story that follows from the question. In that sense, I can't help but wonder if the 5th house connection with amusements ("Sorry, dear, he's just a player,") might have more relevance today than it would have had in, say, the Islamic Middle Ages.

Amen to Barclay's comment. Unfortunately, we so often see the girl who is In Love With Love. It's hard to say that the other person is the primary factor in her question. She's just tired of being single.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread

For me, all relationship horaries are 7th house matters, in that we use the 7th to signify the other. Of course that's not to say that we ignore all the other houses of the chart. A focus on the 5th may well indicate someone who is looking for a fun time or pleasures or perhaps a child from the relationship. The 11th could, as you indicate suggest friendship or else that the relationship occurs within or is influenced by a social group or a social community that the couple belong to. I hope you don't take from my insistence on using the 7th for the quesited that we therefore ignore all other meaning we might get from any other house, just that we do not use the rulers of those houses to determine who should be signified by the quesited himself/herself.

We do of course have interpersonal connections that are not always 7th, but the 7th is the house that best sums up the kind of relationship we have when we expect or hope for some kind of one on one exchange or relationship. The 11th is social groups and friends, the 6th can be those who work for us, the 9th could be lawyers in a general sense etc. in the court cases some people could be seen by the 2nd. There are loads of situations in which people are not the 7th. But not in romance related horaries. At least not for me. Sex, fun, the place of the date, the good food etc. that can all be the 5th, but not the person.

But the best thing to do is use the 5th yourself and try it out and see how you get on. I think that will really be the most persuasive thing you could do.

Quote:
Amen to Barclay's comment. Unfortunately, we so often see the girl who is In Love With Love. It's hard to say that the other person is the primary factor in her question. She's just tired of being single.


Right but think of the "will he call me" kind of question - what's the most important, the question about whether a phone call will be made between this man and her (to for example break up with her, to tell her he doesn't want to see her, to ask if he left his credit card at her place etc.) or is she really focusing on trying to enquire if he has some intent or desire for her or wants to see her again?
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felipeastrologo



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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some thoughts:

waybread wrote:
I understand that Lilly assigned the 7th house to matters relating to affairs of the heart-- apparently ranging from noncommittal to marriage.


I think correctly so.

waybread wrote:
But there is an alternative, possibly more modern interpretation that assigns the 5th to casual love affairs, in the same vein as amusements of various kinds: the flirting or casual sexual encounter that someone might undertake more for temporary fun than for commitment.


I think that is one of the many misunderstandings circulating in traditional astrology circles. I'm not sure of its origin. The person we ask about in a relationship question is a house 7 matter. What you do with the person is a house 5 matter (go to the movies, the park, have sex, etc). The question determines which house to use.

Does he love me? — House 7.

Are we having sex this week? — house 5 (possiby. Context is needed.)

The only "people" signified by the 5th house that I know and have judged are: children, babies and spiritual guides (ambassadors).

waybread wrote:
"Will he text me?"


Again, the question determines the significator.

Will he text me, period? As in: will he contact me? — aspect with L7.

Will he text me or come to my house? — aspect with ruler of turned house 3 from the 7 or L7.

waybread wrote:
"Will he ask me out on a date?"


This is more complex. Requires context. But usually aspect with L7 with favorable receptions will answer.

waybread wrote:
"Will he 'like' me on Facebook?"


Will he like "me"? If it is on Facebook or otherwise makes no difference. A Facebook page is a surrogate "me". Aspect with proper receptions with L7. BUT, if the question is: will he like my PAGE? (not me.) then the page is L3, as is a web site, or forum, email, etc. — they are documents.

waybread wrote:
I could see assigning such questions to the 7th, but then sometimes in this type of question the querent's significator or the moon shows up in the 5th house, and the significator of the 7th doesn't seem so telling.


I've seen that a number of times. Still, the person is house 7. What the querent is thinking of doing with the person is house 5, thus the Moon or L1 being there. The question determines the house to be used.

waybread wrote:
I get that the 5th is the turned 11th house from the 7th: maybe this is more of a friendship or the quesited thinks of the querent as a friend


Yes, that is possible. It is the astrologer's duty to clarify the relation of the querent with the quesited. Is the person a friend - L11? Or a partner for some fun (with benefits) — L7? Explain and ask the querent questions until that is clear before interpreting the chart. But it has nothing to do with the turned 5th from the 7th.

waybread wrote:
The 11th is also the house of hopes and wishes for the future, apparently what the querent hopes could happen to the relationship in the future.


I have never, ever seen any meaning in this concept in horary and I have seen the fuzziest attempts at horary interpretation by people trying to use this.

People do not ask about hopes they ask about things and people, and every thing and person has a specific house in horary. My suspiscion is that this "hopes" business is bias from centuries old when "gifts" were given by Kings and that was the pinnacle of what people wanted from life. That is: turned 2nd from the 10th. Yes, you got your wish/hope = you got a gift from the king.
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul and Felipe-- thank you for your clear and helpful replies.

Felipe, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a relationship, no matter its nature, is a 7th house matter. But where the signifier/s fall/s says something about its nature. So we look to the 7th for a question such as, "Will he ask me out to dinner?" but whether the signifier/s of one or both parties falls in the 5th or the 11th house says something about what type of relationship the parties are interested in.

Incidentally, I've not read the historical texts in depth but referring to Deborah Houlding, The Houses: Temples of the Sky, there is a definite historical association of the 5th house with amusements (possibly related to the association of Venus, who joys in this house, with joy.)

As a footnote: The ancient Egyptians, who probably invented or presaged our astrological houses, associated their goddess Hathor with Venus. Hathor "ruled" childbirth as well as various kinds of pleasurable activities, including drinking. Her clerics celebrated with music and dancing.

Houlding traces the association of the 11th house with hope back to Manilius.

Which makes me wonder now about divergence between house meanings in natal vs. horary astrology.

The idea that the 7th isn't so much the "house of marriage" as the house of the "other" seems surprisingly modern.
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felipeastrologo



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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi waybread,

Some comments:

waybread wrote:
Felipe, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a relationship, no matter its nature, is a 7th house matter.


Partner-type relationships, yes. Romantic, marriage, one-night stands, platonic, imaginary, business, school colleagues, enemies, the guy we like or do not like on Facebook, doctors, etc. House 7 is the person "on the other side of the table."

House 1 is "me". On the opposite side of "the world" "of space" is "you". So the essence of house 7 is the house of "partnership". It is the house of those people who we meet to do things together: get married, open a business, study, stay on Facebook or a forum. Or any "old person" as Lilly puts it; it is any person "out there". Like you and I meeting here to discuss this.

waybread wrote:
But where the signifier/s fall/s says something about its nature. So we look to the 7th for a question such as, "Will he ask me out to dinner?" but whether the signifier/s of one or both parties falls in the 5th or the 11th house says something about what type of relationship the parties are interested in.


You could say that, yes, as a general idea. But it is important to make sure the question and the context are understood correctly above all. House 5 is the house of babies. The querent may be thinking of having a baby with the house 7 ruler (the wife or husband), for example. Often where the significator is in a chart is not really important compared to what the receptions and aspects say. It all depends on the question and the context.

waybread wrote:
Incidentally, I've not read the historical texts in depth but referring to Deborah Houlding, The Houses: Temples of the Sky, there is a definite historical association of the 5th house with amusements (possibly related to the association of Venus, who joys in this house, with joy.)


Sounds right to me. It is also the house of creativity: thus all art works are a house 5 matter, including paintings, literary works, rock bands and ballet.

waybread wrote:
As a footnote: The ancient Egyptians, who probably invented or presaged our astrological houses, associated their goddess Hathor with Venus. Hathor "ruled" childbirth as well as various kinds of pleasurable activities, including drinking. Her clerics celebrated with music and dancing.


Yes, the drinking for the fun of drinking is house 5. But not the drink itself. The drink is house 2. The abuse of drinking is house 12.

waybread wrote:
Houlding traces the association of the 11th house with hope back to Manilius.


Ok. But how does that apply to horary in practice? Does anybody ever ask: will my hope or wish come true? If they do they must be kidding or live with their heads in the clouds and deserve a pull on the foot… :-)

waybread wrote:
The idea that the 7th isn't so much the "house of marriage" as the house of the "other" seems surprisingly modern.


Modern or old, there is no "other" house for "other" other than the 7th, in essence. :-) Lilly uses it when refering to "any old person".

The most useful thing for an astrologer, with respect to houses, in my opinion, is to study and understand their essence, or essences. Then the meanings become apparent. For example:

The essence of house 10 is "authority". Thus: the president, the leagal system, mother, king or queen. In medical astrology house 10 is the house of "treatment". Why? Because we want the treatment to have authority over the state of the body/mind and adjust itself acording to the "treatment law". Most essence-meaning associations are very logical.

House 7's essence is "partnership".

House 9, "knowledge". Thus schools and "special journeys". We travel in order to "know" that place, to have "that experience". We seek knowledge in order to understand, even if we study the minute parts we delight when the parts connect an the whole is revealed, thus the house of spirituality or god — "knowing" the oneness or true nature of everything, etc…

And so on...
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:

The idea that the 7th isn't so much the "house of marriage" as the house of the "other" seems surprisingly modern.


Well, there's nothing new under the sun as they say. When we look at the traditional aphorisms which surround the 7th house type questions, we'll see that at their core they're mostly about exchanges with something other than you or your situation - so the 7th is the other situation the other person, the other thing. Today, of course, we still refer to marriage or romantic partners as our "significant other" but really any meeting of people with this kind of romantic interest in mind is still the 7th house. But if we get too focused on thinking "7th is the house of marriage partners" we can fall into a trap of thinking that if the question is not so seriously asking about marriage, that we should use another house to draw a distinction that we're not necessarily expecting a ring from this man. But it would be better to consider marriage partners as just one example of the kinds of thing the 7th could represent.

Keeping this "other situation/person" in mind, we'll also see that when it comes to questions like "should I stay in this situation/city or move to that other situation/city" that we use the 7th as this "other" and the 1st, in this case, represents not just us, but our current situation, in this case our current living situation.

So this 1st-7th dynamic of self and current vs other and different seems to be one of those things that existed for a very long time in the tradition, only to be forgotten during astrology's decline and subsequently found anew in modern astrology but given at times new nomenclature or a different perspective on the same fundamental core meaning. We may not, in modern astrology, necessarily talk about the 7th as being the other town and city, but instead we sometimes make it almost more archetypal by referring to it as Other.

To go back to Barclay's comment though, what we lack in today's world is a forthright sincerity, perhaps even to ourselves, about what our intents/hopes/fears are - we're instead masters at asking all around those questions or asking about some side effect from which we'll determine ourselves what the answer may be. The question of "will he text me" is a great example of that in that the person really means "is he still interested in me" or something to that effect, and perhaps even more truthfully wants to know "will we have some kind of fulfilling relationship". But we live in a world where it's not okay or at least not socially skilled to reveal what it is that we really desire, and we go to pains to set up some kind of plausible deniability for ourselves perhaps to shield us from the pain, but also as a kind of social currency. Oh I was just asking if he was going to text, I'm not even that interested in him either, I was just more curious than anything, and anyway I'm really busy with work and stuff just now so couldn't have met anwyay.

What I like about Barclay's comment is that, even just for a couple of paragraphs, she reminds us that really horary is about some kind of address from the universe or whatever power or agent through which any astrology works, where some deep or urgent matter on our minds/souls are in some way resonating with the universe, so much so that we can divine some kind of answer or resolution to the problem. The job of the astrologer can be to gently recognise what it is the querent is really needing to know which may not be the question presented. That's why, in person, outside of forums, it can be much easier as it allows you to have some dialogue and converse with the person to get an understanding of them, and people are much less likely to need these kind of social safety nets and can be safe to ask a sincere question.
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful posts, guys.

While I think you've answered my question, if I'm getting this quality of feedback, I sort of hate to let the topic drop!

The 5th/7th house difference is one that had bugged me for a while. With the current horary thread titled "Will they sabotage the relationship?" it seemed highly salient to me that the sun (querent's signifier) was on the cusp of the 5th house. It seemed a big stretch to imagine that she wanted to have a baby with her current crush, who had yet to initiate a first date, but who knows.

What would you do with a medical horary? As the 5th rules the heart and the spine, that also seems like step beyond babies.

I am beginning to feel that houses have different meanings in horary vs. natal astrology-- not just modern vs. traditional differences; but that in either "school" of astrology, natal seems to afford more scope for legitimate house meanings, with the exception of the important 7th house. I can look at the 5th in a natal chart and include children, recreational activities, and even some forms of creativity. Possibly an inheritance from the father.

Paul, I've asked you this before, but to either of you-- there is also the problem (to me) of a significator landing in what looks like a wildly inappropriate house. I suppose then, I could look at the house merely in terms of an accidental dignity or debility-- or assume, as per Barclay's quote, that perhaps the querent hasn't been 100% open or clear about the motives behind the question.

But if that's the case, would you sometimes "reverse engineer" the question? For example, if the "Will he phone me?" question lands his significator in the querent's second house, can we assume a connection with the querent's money or material assets? Moreover, some of the old horary astrologers thought that if you had a very early degree rising, the querent was out to trick you. Theoretically, it seems to me, we should be able to sniff out an obscuring question.

Speaking of children-- in Placidus I have the natal sun, Mercury, and Venus in the 5th house, so yes-- children are important to me. I have two children now in their 30s, and just became a first-time grandmother. I am so happy about this. There must be a link here with Venus "joying" in the 5th. Maybe those ancient priests of Hathor were onto something.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread

Quote:
The 5th/7th house difference is one that had bugged me for a while. With the current horary thread titled "Will they sabotage the relationship?" it seemed highly salient to me that the sun (querent's signifier) was on the cusp of the 5th house. It seemed a big stretch to imagine that she wanted to have a baby with her current crush, who had yet to initiate a first date, but who knows.


Sure, I think it's also a bit of a stretch that the querent really wants a child with this crush too. Maybe she's looking for romance and fun or maybe this can be the kind of "in love with the idea of love" sort of signification. The 5th has held a signification for love and pleasure and romance (in a general sense). I certainly wouldn't think we should rule out the possibility here. But notice that of course the 5th can do more than symbolise a person - we don't need to reduce the 5th to children or the desire to be pregnant. Everything you said about the 5th here could be true. I think it's worth stressing though that when we ask about a romantic partner, that partner is the 7th - this is just the traditional approach - I can not think of a single example of any traditional author suggesting we ever use the 5th when we ask about romance horaries outside the context of focusing in particular on something about sex itself - if you know of an or can find any though please let me know.

If you're interested in the traditional approach, my advice would be to try to make sense of this signification and go with it and just see for yourself how you get on. I kind of think of the distinction between someone asking about a job and we use the 10th house but clearly they want the job so they can earn a living and get paid, and so obviously the 2nd house is important. But the job horary itself belongs to the 10th. In a similar manner lots of romance and 5th house things are hoped for and we expect to happen in a healthy relationship or even just a casual date, but the 7th is the significator for the other person all the same.

Quote:
Paul, I've asked you this before, but to either of you-- there is also the problem (to me) of a significator landing in what looks like a wildly inappropriate house. I suppose then, I could look at the house merely in terms of an accidental dignity or debility-- or assume, as per Barclay's quote, that perhaps the querent hasn't been 100% open or clear about the motives behind the question.


In a perfect world we'll understand the signification at all times of why a planet lands in a given house. But I think in reality sometimes the nature of what that house is symbolising is not always clear. For me, if a planet is close to the cusp of the house, I suspect it has greater significance that it is placed in that house and shares strongly in the themes of that house. Maybe that's not very scientific - I look forward to hearing what other people say on this.

Quote:
But if that's the case, would you sometimes "reverse engineer" the question? For example, if the "Will he phone me?" question lands his significator in the querent's second house, can we assume a connection with the querent's money or material assets? Moreover, some of the old horary astrologers thought that if you had a very early degree rising, the querent was out to trick you. Theoretically, it seems to me, we should be able to sniff out an obscuring question.


Well if we see someone asking "will he phone me" I might once again be forced to ask why they're interested in knowing - does he owe you money? Is it a romantic interest? Again it's worthwhile just trying to understand what it is that's really pressing on the querent's mind or worrying them or what it is that they hope for. If it's just a romantic horary and he's in the 2nd, maybe he's focusing on financial concerns as you suggest. Maybe it's something else. Ultimately we have to just try to form a judgement that makes sense to us taking the chart as a whole and what we know of the relationships between all the planets and try to build a story that seems sensible from what we know of the situation.

Quote:
Speaking of children-- in Placidus I have the natal sun, Mercury, and Venus in the 5th house, so yes-- children are important to me. I have two children now in their 30s, and just became a first-time grandmother. I am so happy about this. There must be a link here with Venus "joying" in the 5th. Maybe those ancient priests of Hathor were onto something.


Almost certainly Waybread, and I can definitely imagine children are very important to you! Congratulations on being a grandmother Smile

For what it's worth, the joy of Venus being the 5th is very likely where we get at least a large part of the symbolism of the 5th from, though likely not the only thing. This essentially forms a large part of Deborah Houlding's thesis, as you likely know, in her book Temples of the Sky.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Paul.

After having engaged with a lot of Internet posters on love/romance/marriage/children questions for a while now, in natal, synastry, and horary charts; it occurs to me that what a lot of single women want is marriage and a family. So I think sometimes the "Will he text me?" question isn't actually about the Man Of Interest, but about a kind of life-plan that doesn't seem to be happening for them. This probably cues into Barclay's quote, in that "Will he contact me?" has a huge hidden subtext, that may truthfully read more like, "Will I ever marry/have a life-partner, a home, and children?"

I am convinced that many (not all) women have a biological clock that hits in their late 20s or 30s if they are still childless. I learned to my surprise that there is also a grandmother biological clock-- over which the "native" has even less control.

I don't mean to gender-essentialize this. I once interacted periodically with a gay man who seemed to be "looking for love in all the wrong places" in wanting a permanent loving relationship, and hoping that each of his most recent love interests would be The One; and I probably mis-interpreted his charts.

Ah, well. When in doubt, let's hope we've got some insights on human nature and common sense when we don't quite get the horoscope.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
It seemed a big stretch to imagine that she wanted to have a baby with her current crush, who had yet to initiate a first date, but who knows.


It is one think is to consider the possibility, which is an important part of the astrologer's thinking process. It is another thing to assume "yes" or "no", which is not the astrologer's business.

So, whether it is a "stretch" or not depends on the context and the understanding the astrologer has of the context. Unless the astrologer is biased and engages in interpretation with bias, which, is rather common, unfortunately.

waybread wrote:
What would you do with a medical horary? As the 5th rules the heart and the spine, that also seems like step beyond babies.


With medical horary we answer the question according to the context just like any other horary. If the querent has a digestive problem and migraines and house 5 is prominent then house 5 is more likely to be the liver or gall bladder, not the heart or babies or sex or partying. There's no question of one or the other being a stretch. The astrologer must understand the context and know what is a possibility and what is a meaningless association.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
So I think sometimes the "Will he text me?" question isn't actually about the Man Of Interest, but about a kind of life-plan that doesn't seem to be happening for them. This probably cues into Barclay's quote, in that "Will he contact me?" has a huge hidden subtext, that may truthfully read more like, "Will I ever marry/have a life-partner, a home, and children?"


Right exactly but typically they do have a given man in mind when they ask it - of course what they've created or projected onto that man is a whole other story.

In fact if we really want to abstract things in this vain we could keep going to what is ultimately at the very core of every single person's horary: will I be happy(ier)? Typically with some condition, will doing this or that bring me happiness or safety or surety. Ultimately that's what we all want to know, and horaries may well just be a masterclass how good we are at abstracting our happiness into tangible discrete things we think will be the thing to bring that.

Quote:

I don't mean to gender-essentialize this. I once interacted periodically with a gay man who seemed to be "looking for love in all the wrong places" in wanting a permanent loving relationship, and hoping that each of his most recent love interests would be The One; and I probably mis-interpreted his charts.


Not to make this too much about gender issues but my own perspective is really that both men and women, whether gay or straight, are looking for love and many have the tendency to look in all the wrong places - especially in today's world which throw so many options and pushes a message that we don't need anyone anyway. Women are perhaps just more open about it, or, again not to get too into this, perhaps it's just that society is more accepting of women who are open about it. Maybe the men are too busy having to 'man up'.

Anyway whatever it is, from my perspective I've certainly been asked awkwardly worded questions by straight men looking to know whether this or that girl is interested in him as he is in her. Straight men today face a mine field of having to do the chasing and show interest across Tindr and other apps, whilst it's more or less a woman's game to swipe which way to show her interest. And I know from both my male and female friends just how cutting women can be in their pursuit of a mate in today's world, at least in the cities - height is a must, short men need not apply. Equally I see how tragic and even creepy men can be in their replies to women.

We're living in a time when both sexes are really trying to redefine how dating and relationships work - people today are really doing the storming and norming.

I mention all this because dating for people today is even more of a minefield than when Barclay wrote her book. Some apps simply filter you out completely based on race or height. But never worry, the next potential match is always one swipe away. We've become geniuses at convincing ourselves that no one person is important whilst all at the same time hoping, male or female, gay or straight, that this next person will be the one, even if yes it's just the one for now. I've had a friend of mine ask me a horary about whether to take a girl to this or that restaurant for example - he's tall, he's attractive, but he has a horrible tendency to bring girls to the kinds of places he'd go with his friends - much to the dissatisfaction of many women who, independent and career minded though they may be, still want something a little bit more magical, or maybe it's just the girls he's targeting.

Dating and romance if anything are even more complex and difficult for both sexes and orientations than ever before.

Quote:

Ah, well. When in doubt, let's hope we've got some insights on human nature and common sense when we don't quite get the horoscope.


Yes indeed.
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waybread



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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again, Paul and Felipe.

I think two themes have emerged: the technical part of a horary reading; and the astrologers' need for considerable awareness, and ideally wisdom, in the nature of human beings.

It reminds me of the exhortation in Matthew 10:16: "Be you therefore as wise as serpents, and as gentle as doves."
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello friends,

Great topic, great information Thumbs up

And I wld be very pleased if you cld help with my below inquiries.

If I ask a question like this :

Will my friends like my specific post on facebook - which cld be either a photo of something/ me with my friends/ landscape or an article - shd I be looking at aspects between L3 and L7 ?

And if I ask,

"Will my friends like my new profile photo on Facebook ?" shd I be loooking at aspects between L7 and Sun/Moon representing my image i.e. My photo ? I remember I read somewhere on the net that Sun and/ or Moon was for image.

Well, I am just a beginner , however I have exprienced that ruler of 9th. taking part with my Facebook questions. So I have been wondering if this social media is related to broadcasting rather than communication. Any comments for this ?

Thanking you so much in advance.
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