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5th vs. 7th house
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waybread



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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you post your chart?
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breeze wrote:

If I ask a question like this :

Will my friends like my specific post on facebook - which cld be either a photo of something/ me with my friends/ landscape or an article - shd I be looking at aspects between L3 and L7 ?


To be completely honest I cannot imagine a way in which such a question could be powerful enough to warrant a horary. Chances are there's some other motivating factor behind this question - this is probably exactly the kind of example I mentioned to Waybread in citing Olivia Barclay. One way to figure out this kind of thing is to ask what would happen or what would it mean to you if they did or if they didn't? What is it you're concerned about? Is it just some social status? If so I might just look more generally at the first and the 10th, but quite honestly I personally wouldn't answer such a question as it doesn't seem wholly sincere.

If, however, you wanted to know because from this you'd draw some other conclusion, it can be better to just ask a question about that thing you want to conclude from. For example you may determine if someone likes your photo that they are romantically interested in you - better to simply ask that question instead.
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Breeze



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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread - I have no charts at the moment related to my questions I asked in this thread.

Paul - The thing is that I moved into a new business 2 years ago, and Facebook has then become an important place for me to relate people from the same business and my friends in order to be known and to increase my business, plus soon I will be adding customers/ database in my Facebook.

Therefore, it is important for me what I post and when I post at Facebook.

It is not an " end of the world " matter, however it is still important for me to use horary in my daily/ business life.

It is nothing to do with romance.
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Breeze

It's impossible to tell from just the question what the motivation is or why it's important. Thank you for expanding on this. If it was me I would use the 10th and perhaps the 11th, and look generally to the moon as usual, whether applying to benefics or not.
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Breeze



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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your comments noted with thanks.

And what wld you say for Sun/ Moon representing the image - which cld be a profile picture ?
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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: is her husband the father of that kid? Reply with quote

subir imagenes

Good afternoon. How are you, everyone? I read all the posts about this topic and found it very useful and clarifying.

I thought that, as an illustration, this horary chart may be a good sample to try to put into practice the statements you have mentioned, concerning the 7th and 5th houses.

This chart is about a woman (querent) who wants to know about a rumor, if it is true or not. Which is whether her current husband really had a son with his former wife, whiles she and her current husband were already married. That is: She wants to know if her husband cheated on her with his previous wife, and if out of that adventure a kid was born. The husband had also some other kids with his former wife, but during his previous marriage, not by cheating Very Happy . The question is about cheating and fatherhood. People are spreading this gossip, mainly the former wife but some other people also affirm it, you guys can imagine the picture, and she wants to know if that's true.

Besides finding if the rumour is true or not. I think it is also interesting to try to assign houses to the characters involved. The wife....the husband, and the former wife, and the "alleged son".

I'm not an expert so please correct my interpretation.

The Husband (Sun) is afflicted in Libra in her 8th, probably a controversy or preocupation for her, and the Sun is aspecting AC by trine, meaning it's something important for the querent.

Venus L 3rd represents the passional rumour in the MC, still in Scorpio, showing it affects the Querent, and somehow a love complicated affair brought into public. Everyone gossiping about it.

Mars is in the turned 5th house of the husband, its ruler, Jupiter, is in Libra, receiving Mars in Sagitarius, but also aspecting it by a square. Does this show the conflict affecting the kid?? (Jupiter)... probably some grudge or discomfort against the alleged father or viceversa...

The moon in 3rd in trine with Mars makes me think that the rumour that affects the Querent might be true. I don't know how to interpret the Moon trine with the Wheel of Fortune in 7th. I have read in other posts here, that POF might mean whatever we're talking about that is very important.... Wheel of Fortune in the husband's 1st house?? isn't that telling enough, or am I speculating too much?

The Husband's 12th house is ruled by the Moon. Motherly or kids affaire?? hidden problems?? and once again trining Mars in the Husband's 5th. Mars is happy in Capri, but it squares Jupiter the ruler of Sagitarius, so it's a bitter-sweet situation for the kid. is that it?
I would say the kid is really his. But the rest of the plot I'm not so sure about it. I mean, the relation the "kid" has with the Sun, and why is Jupiter in the husband's 2nd House. I mean, if the Father is taking care economically of that kid, is that the reason why Jupiter is in the Father's 2nd house?

I think this situation is what we call in Venezuela, "un secreto a voces" "an out loud secret". Something that everyone knows deep down, but no-one dares to admit.

Another question would be.... Where should we place the former wife in the chart?.....turned 5th....turned 7th?? or she doesn't appear at all.

Thank you very much in advance to all of you and excuse my mistakes.
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Breeze



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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I am doing fine . Hope, you are well, too.

I think there shd have been two questions, and two charts. First one , if the husband is cheating the querent. If the answer is no, there is no need to ask about the child. If the answer is yes, then the querent shd ask about that child who is suspected to be born after the marriage is over with the ex-wife.

So, I am looking at the current chart to see if the husband is cheating the querent.

Sun in the malefic 8th house, and at its fall . Mercury, some non relavent planet to question, is conjucting to Sun. I wld. predict that this Mercury is the ex-wife. They are both at the exaltation of Saturn which I wld say they are dominated by the thoughts of current wife. Both Sun and Mercury in the 8th. , they are not able to change things to their advantage i.e. Not freely living this relationship, or they have to keep it as a secret or things like that.

Saturn is at the detriment of Mercury. I wld say this another testimony showing that Mercury is the ex-wife.

Moon is in aspect with Mars at its exaltation shows the querent is deeply hurt.

Venus, the ruler pf the 3rd. Will soon move in to Sag. To the detriment of Mercury. So, the ex wife will be somehow badly affected by that gossip.

Moon's final aspect is an opposition to Venus at its detriment. I wld. Take this another testimony that the husband is cheating with the ex-wife.

Well... I am just a beginner. Hope one of the experts will shed light onto this chart.

Have a nice day !
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Alchemist_Hannibal



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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Wow!!! Reply with quote

Thanks for replying Breeze.
Ok. Taking this chart as only to find out if the husbad cheated the querent with his ex, you said:

[/quote]
Sun in the malefic 8th house, and at its fall . Mercury, some non relavent planet to question, is conjucting to Sun. I wld. predict that this Mercury is the ex-wife. They are both at the exaltation of Saturn which I wld say they are dominated by the thoughts of current wife. Both Sun and Mercury in the 8th. , they are not able to change things to their advantage i.e. Not freely living this relationship, or they have to keep it as a secret or things like that.[/quote]


I really like that interpretation of yours. It makes sense to think Mercury is the ex as an intruder planet. Moreover, Mercury's domicile would be either Virgo (the Husband's 2nd house, as the ally in a conflict) or Gemini (Husband's 11th house, a "friend"). On top of that there are 3 planets in that 8th house, not only the Sun and Mercury, as you mentioned, but also Jupiter, who is Lord of the Husband's 5th (Love affaire, sex, or even a CHILD)... so, could we think, that the 3 of them are hidden giving hell to the querent in her thoughts. It is also in Libra, the sign of diplomacy, love, romance, relationships etc... The fact that they are in Saturn's exaltation doesn't suggest me that they are dominated by the querent's thoughts, but rather that these 3 planets are "overly" affecting the querent's mind and getting her internally uncomfortable. Exaltation could also be related to exageration, and in a malefic house I don't think that dignity could turn out as something good. It could also be read as if she is giving too much importance to that even when it's something that happened in the past.


[/quote]Saturn is at the detriment of Mercury. I wld say this another testimony showing that Mercury is the ex-wife.

I think you are right on that too. We can also see that the Qurent is in the Husband's 4th (Home) of course, the Querent lives with her husband, and it is rightly there where Mercury is afflcted.

[quote]Moon is in aspect with Mars at its exaltation shows the querent is deeply hurt.

That aspect between Moon and Mars I wouldn't see it as the querents hurt, because it is a trine. I don't know, could be. But I would rather see it as the confirmation of whatever suspecion the Querent may have is in fact true. In this case a suspicion related to conflict or sex (Mars) which is in the Husband's 5th, and in the Querent's 11th (something coming from society, from a group from a friend) and the moon is in the 3rd (the rumour), I mean, the Moon is trying to find out what the rumour is about, and from there the Moon connects by trine both Mars and Wheel of Fortune in the Husband's 1st. The WOF could be either the secret adventure or the kid himself. That Double trine for me is very telling and I would read it as much more that her hurt. The Moon represents the Querent's circumstances, whatever she is doing, whatever she is after, and from there 2 important elements are trined like suggesting an answer to the chart's question.

[quote]Venus, the ruler of the 3rd. Will soon move in to Sag. To the detriment of Mercury. So, the ex wife will be somehow badly affected by that gossip.

The fact that Venus is in its detriment (Scorpio) and will touch the MidHeaven, I see it as some rotten love-sex secret brought into light in that transit in scorpio. A gossip belonging to the 3rd house now being widely spread, and as you say, affecting the Querent. But the woman who asked for this chart doesn't seem to be that hurt about the fact, (at least on the surface Very Happy ) she claims that she doesn't care whatever happened back then but that she wants to know the truth. If what she is saying is true, I would take that venus entering Sag as another confirmation of the question.


[quote]Moon's final aspect is an opposition to Venus at its detriment. I wld. Take this another testimony that the husband is cheating with the ex-wife.

This final obsevation of yours is very clever! This one, might be really hurting her though she doesn't admit it. The Moon finding out a cheanting-on-her rumour to be true.

Thaaaaank you very much for your reply and time Breeze! It was very enriching. I made another chart for the 2nd question which would be if the kid is really the huband's son. But as I told, you that Jupiter L5th and WOF in the First, it's like a pretty clear pointing out. I will be posting the second chart in a while. Have a very nice weekend! Wink I have problems with quotes... still don't know how to use them. Very Happy
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Alchemist_Hannibal



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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Then where to find the lover 5th? 12th? Reply with quote

Trying to relate that chart I posted to the the main topic of this thread.

I would make this question. How to find out the intruder in a relationship in a horary chart? I mean the third person of the triangle. Where to find him-her?

If we assume that 1st and 7th are husband and wife, would it be a good idea to find that person through "intruder planets" (I mean, not belonging to either Quesited or Querent) which are somehow aspecting, prohibiting, hindering, etc.......

What about taking the 5th as the lover (the 3rd person)?? if the Husband is in the 7th, where else should find the "intruder" Very Happy Very Happy ....Lord of 5th, because of sex? 12th because it is hidden?.... Opinions about this topic will be very heplful.
Thanks in advance to everybody
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Breeze



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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am more than happy to hear that my predictions sound Cool This is the first time I hear this Smile Thanks so much.

Well... Here are my thoughts;

I wld not. Say Jupiter is the child. We do not know yet if there is a child. Even, Jupiter rules the 5th. , in my oponion Jupiter is not relavant to question. Experts say, keep it simple, be stuck to the main question... I do so:)

Moon trine Mars... I insist on that this shows that the querent is hurt. I know from my exprience i.e. From the tens of romance charts I have erected in recent months:) It is still a knife and still cuts Wink If any other predictions about this Moon-Mars trine, I really wanna hear them.

I do not think it is important in which sign Sun and Mercury are. They are already still in conjuction. If they were in another sign, I wld still predict that Sun is having affair with his ex.

And who dominates whose thoughts.... If these two were in Auq. I wld say that Sun and Mercury are dominating querent's mind. But as they are in querents exaltation ... I understand this as they are giving importance to the querent, and as they are in the malefic 8th. They are dominated by the querents thought. I am not sure...

I said Mercury woman wld be affected by the gossip, not the Saturn woman. Venus will be in Sag., soon in Mercury's detriment. Venus is in her very late degrees, things will be changed to Mercury's disadvantage once Venus enters Sag.

I do not think that this is a past relationship. Mercury is still applying to Sun by conjuction and it will soon gain dignities of Sun by term and face.

With regards to your "intruder" planet question... Pls. See Felipe's prediction in my thread " Marriage Horary - Help required " where he says an unrelevant planet's conjuction with the significator imply a relationship "with another party". It was that very chart that resulted me to erect another chart for Mr.X which clarified the situtation at my end. So, I beleive this conjuctions make sense.

Looking forward to hear your comments for above.

I wish you a great week end, too!
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Alchemist_Hannibal



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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's great to hear that Breeze. It is fascinating when we realize that as is it up above it is also down below, Im also a beginner, that's why I get so excited about this when I see that predictions work.

All you say makes sense Breeze, the only thing is that when the Querent asked me to make the chart she was referring to something of the past, because in fact, her relationship with her husband is hanging from a thread right now and she doesn't really care about it, but she does want to know if that "new" kid the previous wife had some years ago is her husband's or not. I don't know....probably the guy is still cheating on her as you say Very Happy , but the question though posed with problems, because as you told me, there should have been 2 questions instead of one. I would stick to the fact that it is a question about something from the past, though it might be still going on.

I understand now what you see concerning the three planets in her 8th. You see it if the 3 planets are the afflicted ones, and not the Querent. Though it could also be the other way arround, the querent has 3 worries in the house of fear, anxiety, loss and death... But I understand your point and it does make sense. So, if she says that she doesn't really care about having been cheated but rather about the fatherhood....would that match to what your saying that it is she dominating their thoughts, and that they are the ones who are worried?.... I think it does.

You say that Venus entering Sag will favor the Querent, because is a benefic related to love, favoring her, and Saturn is in Mercury's detriment. That also makes sense, but the thing is that that would only work if we interpret that as a current situation, and that's not what she wants to know. At least that's what's she's telling me. She only cares about what happened in order to find out who is that kid's father. On top of that the ex-wife lives very far away. Is that why venus is in 9th?? I don't know. The thing is that for the Husband and the ex-wife to keep up with a hidden relationship it would be very hard because of that. You could tell me that's why they are in 8th Very Happy..... they are still trying but it's not easy for them. But I don't think the chart would reveal something the querent is not interested about.

Is it valid to rise a horary chart for things that happened long ago? I think there's no problem with that, I've tried that a couple of times before.

Concerning Mars trine on Venus if you have that much back up with your personal experience, I believe you Breeze, knwoledge is proven by real practice.

Making the question as simple as we can is something interesting and pretty practical, mostly for the question purposes, but I wonder, the rest of the elements in a chart, that seem not to mean anything, does that mean they really don't?..... Now I see why most people try no to dig too much into turned houses, because everything gets more complicated and what really matters is to answer the question, but I think they should have a meaning, probably by backing it up with another chart that could make more sense. That Jupiter L 5th, in her 8th along with the Sun and Mercury, is too much coincidence!!! Very Happy

I will post the 2nd chart soon but I'm also having a look at the other thread you posted, about you moving from the office, where you have that big cosmic cross. So we we'll be in contact here and there. I'll also check felipeastrologo insight about that case you mentioned.

Thanks a big deal once again Breeze! It's amazing to see how we can learn and share experiences in this very nice way! Very Happy Thumbs up
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Breeze



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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your first message, you said question is ;

"She wants to know if her husband cheated on her with his previous wife, and if out of that adventure a kid was born."

What I understood was that the querent was not sure if her husband cheated on her with his ex. This is why I said there shd have been two charts.

Now that you say, the querent says this is a "past" relationship. So querent is sure, her husband cheated on her with ex. ? If this is the case, then the chart is to find out if the husband is the father of that kid ? Cld. You pls. Clarify for what question this chart is for ?

I did not say that Venus entering into Sag. Will be beneficial to the querent.I said it will be disadvantage to Mercury.

Regarding dominating thougts, I do not ever think that she does not care she was cheated by his ex. To me, Moon-Mars trine already says she cares.

Venus is in the 10th, not in the 9th. So, Venus is not related to distance. It may show querent has had hard times in her marriage as Venus is at her detriment. I do not know... You tell me.

Felipe says, by looking at every planet even within aspect, we only invent stories. That really sounds. i.e. Thinking that this chart is about husband's cheating, what is to do with the ruler of 5th. ? May be he is doing a 5th house related business and this Jupiter may be showing his business is not going well. We do not know what this Jupiter represents. At least I do not know Smile

I go with what Felipe says i.e. Keep it simple. Focus on main significators.

Yesssss, it is great to have a friend to exchange thoughts and to improve knowladge:'

Still, I hope some expert will forward comments.[/quote]
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Alchemist_Hannibal



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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: ooopss...you're right Reply with quote

I see dear Breeze, we can understand that out of the question I posed,and I think there should be two charts anyway. But the question was still in the past, because even though she is married to the same guy, the "kid" we're talking about was born several years ago, the boy is 6 years old I think. That's why I was telling you she doesn't really care that much right now, because it is past business, but within the same relationship. I should have mentioned that before. It is logical that you thought that it was a kid been born recently. My bad... Sad

Venu entering Sag, how mischievious will that be to mercury, I'm not really sure.... Because of the misunderstanding you thought the lovers are somehow still seeing each other, that could be possible if the kid is really his, becuase he might somehow make his own into visiting his kid....but that we don't know.... I'm posting the second chart about the question of the fatherhood but I hadn't wanted to before finishing the discussion about this one. But I think we're clear, the guy really cheated on her, what we need to know is if the ex-wife last son is the husband's....

Now I'm worried about how to approach that chart....

Thank you again Breeze Wink
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Breeze



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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

Just to make sure, the husband cheated the querent with his ex-wife, while the querent was married with him? So, just for example, if the kid is 6 , the querent is married with the husband, lets say for 8 years.

I really have no idea how the querent knows this is a past relationship.

The husband and ex still may see each although they are distant.

If an expert forward thoughts for our comments, we can see if have the accurute answer.

That other chart... We will give it a try... And then see...
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I claim no expertise, and hope that an expert will chime in here.

However, it seems to me that the root question is, "Is the boy the biological son of the querent's husband? If "yes," then we can do the arithmetic and see that the husband must have cheated on the wife to father this child.

A simple DNA test would solve the mystery more conclusively, and if the ex-wife of the querent's husband is contemplating divorcing husband #2, she may be thinking about who owes child support.

The husband is a 7th house matter, ruled by the sun. His biological child would be the 5th from the 7th, or radix 11th house. This house is ruled by Jupiter, and also contains an exalted Mars in Capricorn. The moon would be the querent's stake in the matter, which doesn't seem to affect basic biological paternity, but it is viable with its application to an opposition with Venus.

Love-goddess Venus would be my planetary candidate for the husband's ex wife, notably as the sign ruler of the sun (in detriment in the 8th,) but I don't see her as so central to the core question. With the querent (moon) applying to an opposition with Venus in Scorpio, possibly we see how jealousy shapes up.

I can think of a few ways the chart could give a "yes."

1. Planets symbolizing the man and the boy apply to a major aspect.

I get a "no" from this, as the sun-- the faster moving planet-- has passed its aspects with the possible boy planets: Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars.

2. Planets symbolizing the man and boy share reception according to their essential dignities.

I'm not picking up much here, but maybe I've missed something. Part of the problem is that the sun is in its fall in Libra, Mars is in detriment in Libra, and Jupiter picks up nothing at the sun's degree of Libra. Saturn is exalted in Libra and in its own face, but I wouldn't see it as the sign ruler of Mars as instrumental as Mars itself or the 5th house cusp ruler Jupiter.

Mercury rules the sun's house, but it applies to combustion with the sun

3. A beneficial planet completing or translating a favourable aspect.

Here we get into faster and slower moving planets, and something would have to operate between the degrees of the main signifier. Mercury is a fast-moving planet, but it has past its aspects with the boy's signifiers.

I don't think he cheated with the ex-wife, either, because you could run through the same diagnostic with the querent's husband, and signifiers for his ex wife, and come up with the same planetary relationships.

Why the ex-wife wants to cause this kind of trouble by essentially claiming to be an adulterer, and in a way that could be hurtful to her young son, is beyond me. But not everybody is motivated by good values.

OK, experts! What am I missing?
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