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5th vs. 7th house
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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 23
Location: Caracas, Venezuela

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:49 am    Post subject: Wow!!! Reply with quote

WOW!!! Very Happy how interesting to see that many opinions about one very chart.

It makes a lot of sense to think that Venus (Love Goddess) should be the previous wife, but even assuming that, I could still be thinking that the guy really had sex with her and so cheated on his current wife.

Waybread does really have a point when he says there's no direct major aspects between the Sun and Venus, true. But isn't a reception enough? I don't really know. Answering that question for me will be key to clarify what makes "things to pass or not". That would make a big difference for me when judging a chart.

It is true that the Sun is in its detriment, and so would Mars in Libra. But I don't think the guy feels so happy about having that kid outside his current marriage and very likely the kid isn't either about having a far away father (asumming the kid is Mars) so that could explain the uncomfortable situation they feel out of that sex experience with venus in Scorpio (which I would see as hidden things related to sex)

We also have Venus the Sun and Mars, the three of them are in Venus term, and the Sun is also in Jupiter's face (ruler's of the guy's 5th)

The key question would be if only by terms and sign reception would be enough to consider a question a Yes, when there are no direct aspects.

Breeze recommended me to make it as simple as possible, and not to venture too much into the other houses, but Very Happy hahaha..... what about the guy's 12th turned house?? It's cancer and its ruler is the Moon, related to children and procreation, which not only is exalted in Taurus, but also, in its own face and in Jupiter's term (once again ruler of the guy's 5th)

The Moon is also aspecting Mars by trine, Breeze said it was related to hurt, so, is that Mars unveiling the guy's secret by that trine?

The Moon is also trining the Wheel of Fortune which is in the very 1st house of the man, and WOF is also in Venus term and face. So we have too many terms coincidences, but I'm not sure if that's relevant enough to make it a Yes.

The 12 house is said to represent worries, secrets and skeletons in the closet... wouldn't that make sense that the Moon points out what is his secret by that double trine to the WOF and Mars in his 5th. That's also a doubt I have because I've seen the use of that arabic part to point out important things, but don't know about this case. Excuse me if by this I'm digging too deep for far-fetched things....it's just a question Very Happy

Somebody who knows about the children arabic part or something like that I think could be very interesting.

I'll try to gather more information from the querent so we may have closer details about what could be going on in this chart.

Let's see what the wise men of this forum have to say about this Very Happy Thanks to everyone in advance!
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, suggest to the ex wife a simple DNA test for both the child and the querent's husband (or her own husband) to determine paternity. If she won't cooperate, then chances are she actually believes her current husband is the child's father.

Basically, I think the husband is the 7th house, and his child would be the 5th from the 7th or 11th. If this doesn't look affirmative for an applying aspect or some kind of essential dignity reciprocity then astrologically you should be able to rule out that possibility.

I believe that the querent's husband's ex wife would be represented by the first house, as well: the 7th house from the 7th house, ruled by Saturn.

No doubt there's more to get to in looking at planets as rulers of various phenomena, regardless of how they show up in the chart.

I don't think it's unusual to get a conflicting testimony. J. Lee Lehman, in The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, quotes John Gadbury, on this problem. He says that if [conflicting] testimonies are about equal, it's best just to defer judgement, because you cannot say with certainty which way the matter will work out.

Meanwhile, let's hope one of the experts sets us straight.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly deals with the rumor question quite effectively in CA-II.

The MC/IC angles are not fixed,SN is in ascendant, Moon is fixed , 3rd lord is in detriment (corrected..3rd lord is fixed). Moon applies to opposition of Venus in detriment.

The rumor is not true and mischievous.

PD
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

additionally,

Quote:
....The Retrogradation of Mercury, or he any other way afflicted, or of that Planet to whom the Moon applies, or to whom Mercury applies, and above all, if either of those two be Lords of the Ascendant, doe signifie the ill Rumours shall vanish to nothing, and shall be converted to good;...


Mercury is combust and applying to Sun in its fall in Libra.Moon applies to Venus in detriment in scorpio.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

I think the affair happened and the child is his but as Pankajiji has said the rumour will come to nothing.

More later...

Smile
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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your contribution I'll try to check what Lilly says about that....
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonbright wrote:
Hi:

I think the affair happened and the child is his but as Pankajiji has said the rumour will come to nothing.

More later...

Smile


basking in the light of a new moon 😉
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
basking in the light of a new moon 😉


??

Smile
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi HannibalAlchemist:

I’m fairly new to horary so please take that into consideration when reading this.

I have only read the background story and PankajDubey’s last posts before writing out this delineation as I wanted to “test” myself against the chart.


The question was: is her husband the father of that kid?

The chart is not radical: a consideration before judgement.

The ASC degree is OK.


The wife (querent) is L1, Saturn, peregrine, angular in the 10th house, disposed by Jupiter (peregrine).

The wife’s co-significator, the Moon, is exalted in the 3rd house and disposed by Venus (in detriment).

The husband (quesited) is the Sun, L7, in fall and in the 8th house (hidden things/anguish), in the Via Combusta (fear and hidden things), protected by Spica and disposed by Venus.

The ex-wife, now mistress, is Venus, whose signs are both intercepted in 3 and 8, in detriment and on the cusp of 10. Venus (dispositor Mars) is about to move bodily into the 10th house and change signs from Scorpio to Sagittarius.

The affair itself is Mars, exalted and with dignity by face in 11, disposed by Saturn. According to Deborah Houlding: the condition of the 11th house indicates the fidelity or falseness of friends and is the house of step-children (5th from the 7th). The 11th house is ruled by Jupiter, peregrine.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h11.html

Wade Caves has mentioned that Venus can sometimes be seen simply as “desire” and that’s how I view Mars in this chart (which is a modern astrology perspective).

The children of the wife and husband (querent and quesited) are L5, Mercury, peregrine and combust in the 8th house and in the Via Combusta.

The child of the affair is Jupiter, L11 (turned L5 or 5th from the 7th, step-children), peregrine and under the beams in the 8th house as well.



The first house contains the South Node, indicating what appears to be a less than ideal situation for the wife; Neptune is conjunct the South Node, however, and perhaps it‘s not as bad as she thinks. The third house contains the Moon, her emotional state, which is exalted and she is about to “lose her head” (Algol) as she applies to an opposition to the mistress, Venus.

The seventh house contains the North Node and the Part of Fortune: I think this might mean that they will be lucky if financial consequences are the only consequences they will have to face. As well, this is the husband’s (turned) first house and he will be lucky to retain the loyalty of his children (Mercury disposes).

The eighth house contains the husband and the kids. The children, for the most part are “unseen”, have no dignity, are peregrine and suffering by being in the eighth, feeling the heat of the sun (the effects of their father‘s behaviour), and in the case of Mercury, the heat of the Via Combusta (perhaps the effects of others in his world re: the affair); in other words the children know about the affair and the rumours and it’s having a bad effect on them. The adults are all lacking dignity and I think the peregrine status of the children indicates that the adults are mostly concerned with themselves at this point.

The tenth contains the two women: the wife, concerned with possibility of another child (disposed by Jupiter) and the mistress, concerned now with the affair (disposed by Mars) but as she changes signs she will take a greater concern with her child (disposed by Jupiter).



Turning the chart, I think, gives the same results. It might seem strange that the husband and the children show up in the second house, but there is an article online by Olivia Barclay (I can longer find the site) that says the second house rules “…all things that are yours”, which is another reason I think the child in question is the child of the quested along with the fact that Jupiter is within orb of a conjunction with the Sun.



The Moon’s last aspect is a separation from a trine with Mars; next aspect is an opposition to Venus: the wife heard about the affair and is in conflict, at least on an emotional level, with the mistress.

Mercury’s last aspect is a separation from a square with Mars perhaps indicating when the children learned of the affair. Mercury’s next aspect is a conjunct with the Sun, where they may gain some protection from the Via Combusta and some strength from cazimi.

Venus’ last aspect is a separation from a sextile with Mars perhaps indicating the ending of the affair; her next aspect is sextile with Jupiter, her son, where she will be able to lend him some dignity (term) as his dispositor.

Mars’ last aspect is a separation from a square with Jupiter, again, the revelation of the affair to the child.

I don’t think the paternity of the child will be revealed, to the world anyway, and the rumour will die down, as the Sun and Mercury will move out of the eighth house more quickly than Jupiter will.



If were a professional astrologer, I don’t think I would consider answering this question for the querent as the potential for harm is too great. Stigma can have a very profound, lasting effect and no kid needs that. I think it would be better to take a chance to let the rumour die and the children have a reasonably normal life and I would counsel the querent to think about the long-term effects of proceeding on the course that she‘s on. Not easy, of course, especially if you’re about to “lose your head”.

As well, there may be cultural differences that need to be considered and nothing that has been discussed in this delineation takes into account the mistress’ husband. It may be worthwhile to ask a question regarding him, or perhaps he does exist in this chart but I’ve warped the delineation towards my own preference for “neat and tidy” and an emphasis on the children.


Any feedback or questions greatly appreciated.

I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday season.

Merry Christmas. Lala Happy
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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
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Location: Caracas, Venezuela

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Information from the Querent Reply with quote

Good afternoon friends! I've gathered some more information from the Querent and everything points out that the kid is the husband's though we will never know for sure.

She tells me that all this happened long ago, actually the kid is 13 years now, and everything seems to have occured in a time when they were split. In that time the husband very likely visted his ex-wife and everything started out there. After that period of separation the querent got called up by the 1st wife several times bragging about that she had an affaire with her husband and that she was pregnant of a kid of his. In fact, back then, both women were pregnant at the same time. She kept on harassing her on the phone for some time, till she finally confronted her husband but he denied everything and called the ex-wife back and told her off, and phone harassment stopped there.

The husband also has an older kid from that very same wife, but he never took care of that kid. This is something the husband himself acknowledges, but the 2nd kid is not recognized by him.

Though we will never be able to know for sure, I think everything makes a lot of sense, even more when I have seen many comments from you friends about this chart.

I'm really impressed at Moonbright's interpretation because she really nailed it at making a difference between the current marriage children, and step-children by the turned 5th house of the husband. That's crucial. For me that really establishes a difference between the kids he does recognize as his and the ones he doesn't.

Pankajdubey's comment on the rumour is also very pertinent, because though he doesn't think the kid is his, it is true that everything starts out with an evil-intentioned rumour that will affect the moon deeply by oposition with Venus from Scorpio. We should understand that venus (the mistress) is acting out of pain, vengeance, jealosuy, etc, that's why it's in its fall.

The Sun in 8th, and in fall, shows the very uncomfortable situation for the husband being accused, and disposed by Venus (the cause of his anguish).

By the way, the ex wife is an Aries woman, and Mars in the turned 5th represents the conflict, squaring both Mercury and Jupiter. Jupiter ruler of his 5th, underlines again the children issue. Venus is also disposed by Mars. Moonbright mentioned Spica protection. South Node in the 1st house of the querent and Algol as driving her crazy. All makes sense.

The querent know has started to show her deep resentment and pain because of this situation. Something she hadn't done before, so everything is related to her pain, Breeze explanation was Mars trining the Moon, or the oposition with Venus gives the same outcome.

Moonbright also mentioned the Wheel of Fortune in the 1st house of the husband. She understood that as the guy being lucky by only taking care of the kid economically, but I think that won't happen. It's just what Moobright and Pankajiji said about the nasty rumour, though very likely true, it will die out and nothing will happen.

My interpretation was that the secret sought for (in this case the denied kid), represented by the Wheel of Fortune was trined by the Moon, just as Mars is. The Moon, Lord of husband's 12 house (secrets, worries etc) and also related to procreation, was pointing out that Mars accusation was true. If the Wheel of Fortune were a lost object that we are looking for we could say it was in the Quesited's hands (his 1st house). That's how I would see it but Im not an expert in Arabic Parts.

I don't mean the case is absolutely closed, but I think we have learnt a couple of things about this intrigue, concerning rumours and alleged fatherhood in horary, just as well as 7th and 5th house stuff.

Please keep on commenting if you think there are still many things missing.

I really thank all of you for your kind contribution and wish you Merry Christmas!!!
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Last edited by Alchemist_Hannibal on Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the update.

But honestly, if this is such a big issue, why don't the husband and the boy get a simple paternity DNA test? Problem solved.

Happy holidays.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Thanks for the update.

But honestly, if this is such a big issue, why don't the husband and the boy get a simple paternity DNA test? Problem solved.

Happy holidays.


The boy is a minor who lives the person who wants to emotionally torture the querent that- so why would she agree.Why break a stick with which you can beat the querent for a lifetime- it is most useful unsolved.
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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
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Location: Caracas, Venezuela

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:40 am    Post subject: I think I got it Reply with quote

I was checking some other posts in the forum and found about the importance of the previous aspects in the chart, and they found the answer of some charts through that.

In this case, one of the Sun's last aspects was a SQUARE with Mars, meaning that some conflict really happened between tha Sun and Mars (the conflict itself) in his 5th house (children and sex adventures). When The Sun was squaring Mars it was also conjuct to Jupiter (Lord of his 5th). This picture for me really shows that in fact there was a past issue there because of the aspect that took place before, which left all this mess. As somebody said in the comments, I think it was Moonbright did, both Mercury and the Sun will leave Libra and the 8th house and enter Scorpio. So the issue will be forgotten though everybody knows deep down it was very likely true.

But there's something more important!!!!

When the Sun was just entering the cusp of the 8th (secrets and anguish) just entering its fall in Libra, Venus was forming a SEXTILE with Mars....while MARS was at the same time SQUARING the Sun in conjuction with Jupiter (L 5th)

Seeing it this way now I would really dare to affirm that the kid is really his as a matter of fact, because at that moment, the current marriage child was out of the picture. But the unrecognized kid (Jupiter L5th) was already in Libra in 8th. Anyway I will refer again to that Mercury later.

By the time that aspect took place we had:

1) The Sun at 4 degrees Libra, CONJUNCT TO JUPITER (L5th, The Kid). Combusted.

2) The Sun SQUARING Mars (in the last degree of Sag, but already in the 5th) just about to enter Mars exaltation in Capricorn.

3) Venus SEXTILING Mars (at 3 degrees Scorpio, already in its fall) becoming the cause of all this affaire.

Can we say that Mars received the light from the Sun and transferred it to Venus?? Im not familiarized with light translation.... but what I see from there in very plain terms is that all the significators meet by aspect through Mars in the 5th. It's not shown in the chart but it happened before, also meaning that it was an old issue, what we see directly from the chart is only the consequences of it.

My opinion.
If Mars were simply in his 5th house aspecting some other planet (not Jupiter) we could think it is simply an accusation, a rumour, or some issue relateted to the 5th that the guy has to solve.

But the fact that Mars DID ASPECT Jupiter in Conjuction with the Sun..... and that right now in the chart it still DOES ASPECT it, for me that's the key of the chart. The kid is his!!! Mars is precisely aspecting the Lord of his 5th house, from the very 5th house. On top of that Venus is disposed by Mars, which is the conflict itself.

We also have that thing with the terms, which I don't know if it's an unnecessary complication, but the fact is that the Wheel of Fortune, Mars and the Sun are in venus terms. I read somewhere from Lilly that he talks about term reception.

Besides that, according to Moonbright suggestions, if we assume that all those 3 planets in 8th (turned 2nd) are the guy's "posesions". Mercury the planet combusted by the Sun, could be the older son the guy had with the mistress, the one he did recognize. While Jupiter is the unrecognized one, still squared by Mars. Both Mercury and Jupiter are squared by Mars, but Mercury moves faster and will son leave the 8th along with the Sun, and still receiving its rays (relation between the father and older kid is not good) But the square with Jupiter will last much more, and it is almost a partile aspect, and Jupiter will still remain in the 8th for a big while. So that Jupiter is the unrecognized kid (Lord of the man's 5th) which received a direct aspect from the Sun, but was then abandoned by the Sun.

I still insist on the the fact that the Moon is trining both Mars and the Wheel of Fortune in the husband's 1st house. That Moon is the Querent somehow pointing out two things she relates in her mind. But that Moon is also the Lord of the man's 12 house, and for me that can't be a coincidence either.

I will leave you for the moment both of the previous aspects (Mars squaring Jupiter/Sun) and (Venus sextiling Mars) without the houses because I dont know how to do it otherwise. I had to rise another chart some days before in order to picture the previous aspects still withing the signs.

Well friends... it's Christmas... Let the Wise Men come and give us light about this Wink kind greetings to everyone!



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Alchemist_Hannibal



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
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Location: Caracas, Venezuela

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning the DNA test suggestion.

That should be a "solution" my friend, but there are some reasons why they won't do it.

1) it's an old issue, very likely the kid already thinks his father is somebody else or simply that he doesn't have a father. Digging out all that problem again would very painful for everybody mostly for the kid.
2) This is Venezuela, a Latin American country, and the affaire is in the countryside, not to talk bad about my country but that type issues down here are rarely solved legally, even less if that happened in the countryside. Single mothers tend to think that if some kid doesn't have a dad, some other incoming man might take care of him as it happened in the end in fact.
3) The reason why the querent wants to know about this, is just because she wants to know the truth. But we're talking about a poor family, and making a decision like cutting off with your husband when you already have many kids is nothing easy, on top of that my country is undergoing a pretty tough situation economically, so no-one would be venturing into divorcing with kids involved if you aren't really sure what you will do afterwards. Probably this might sound unadmissible for the most of you but even many women in the capital would think like that, let long if they are from a small town in the contryside.

So even when the querent found out that the kid is really her husband's, it doesn't really make any sense to make an issue out of that after these many years.
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AH, of course I take your point, and you know the context far better than I could. But using a bit of psychology on this problem suggests to me that if the option of a DNA test were put to the woman who is spreading gossip about her child's paternity, she would probably decline-- but stop gossiping.

I think there are specific blood tests for this purpose, as well.

If the boy is a bit older, one wonders which man he looks most like.

Obviously I think horary astrology has merit, but there are cases where the facts of the matter can be known, and with accuracy.
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