16
Hi Polina

Seems like you've still got a lot to be happy and grateful for - keep in mind the immediacy of your question, it's a big ask for a man to go through a divorce, help put funds together for another marriage (or is the entire financial burden on him?), sell his house, split his funds, and still try to keep sane. Chances are you are his refuge where he can get some peace from the chaos going on in his life right now.

To reiterate what Waybread said, on top of everything else, he may be required to pay alimony on top of all this. Seems like this man is financially stretched enough.

You may want to compare and contrast yourself with his ex-wife - that won't help you in any way whatsoever, but I can understand that the compulsion can be hard to deny.

Before you go too far down that road, remember that it's the man, not the bank account that you love, and it seems you're fortunate enough to split costs evenly. This may seem callous but may be worth answering in your own mind if not to me: ask yourself which you love more, the man himself, or the lifestyle the woman had? What was the motivation then for wanting this relationship?

Keep in mind that whilst he may have done all kinds things with and for this woman, that is not your relationship, and in many respects is really none of your business, in the sense that if you love and respect this man, that comes alongside his previous life.

Finally before you compare too much, keep in mind that whatever went on in that relationship and whatever pressures he had or felt he had, whether financial or not, that relationship didn't work out - they ended it. Are you sure this is a model you want to emulate in your life?

I know this message is a little blunt and abrupt, but I don't want you to think that the chart says all is lost because that's not the case, there's a lot that you can be happy with, but it looks like the Moon's position suggests to me that really there's some delay here so whilst I wouldn't rule out marriage entirely I think the next 12 months may be a little soon.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

17
Hi Paul,
Thanks for chiming in - nothing abrupt about it at all, not to worry or apologize.
What was [his] motivation then for wanting this relationship?
I would love to know the answer to this question! I have no idea. Is it because I'm a foreigner? Is it because instead of being a stay-at-home woman who hasn't developed herself or educated herself (despite her being supported and having the time to do so in recent years given adult children), in contrast I've done as much as possible in those areas with myself while single? Is it because I'm younger than she/he is? Is it because he's having a mid-life crisis and he is always working on self improvement and achievement and needs someone, a partner, who is focused in that direction to? Maybe. I have no idea why he's with me... I think that's part of what prompted this question too.
He is a dream to me: he's intelligent, handsome, successful, sensual, funny, you name it - He's *the dream* I have waited 42 years for. I have MUCH to be grateful for. But part of me also doesn't really believe it. It cannot finally be happening for me, I can't possibly be having this much luck, something must be wrong becuase in the past there's always been something I haven't seen. Yet in the past it was also never this way and the man never moved mountains to make "us" happen> So maybe this IS different and (I pray to God) maybe, hopefully it will last. That too was part of the question - will it last. Marriage to me would be an indicator of "yes". Although I know many marriages just end in divorce, but it would at least indicate a trend in our relationship moving forward...

You could be right in that he was saddled with being the provider and got sick of it. Not exactly what someone who is hoping to start a family wants to hear though. Splitting things is fine. It's better than supporting the man 100% of course (and i've done that too!). But it's just a challenge to know what he can or could provide. It stings me, that's all. And you're right I should not compare, but it is hard not to. A friend who looked at our initial meeting chart said "dont give him any of your money" and that phrase has stuck in my head...

One point of fact: he has no alimony payments. Both children are adults so by law there is no alimony in his case. The wife gets half the apartment and one car, and then it's done.
ask yourself which you love more, the man himself, or the lifestyle the woman had?
Hands down the man. No question about that at all. I may be sounding...whats the word...hypocritical. To complain here about what he spent on her and then say this, but I will say it because deep down it's how I"ve lived the past 42 years (it's why I dont have the rich husband in the loveless marriage...) : I've always known that love is WAY more important than money. In fact this boyfriend chides me for not spending more money on things ("do you always buy the cheapest food?" Well yes because I've always counted every dime i earn. "Do you always buy the cheapest clothing" well yes because no one else provides for me... etc).
But given a choice i'd rather be poor in love, than rich without it. (I haven't had the option of real love at either end of the financial spectrum though, until now).

We agreed early on not to discuss our pasts. So I do not ask him about her, and he doesn't know about my past relationships. I think this is better for us both because we then focus on the 'now". But with his apartment sale, I hear about the meetings with the realtor and the buyer and the terms and the timeline and what's involved. So it starts my brain turning in ways otherwise it wouldn't. He said last night "had i sold in 2013 i could have bought 3 homes for the sale price". Well but he didnt - and there must have been a reason for it. And I keep mum. I'm 42 and i've never owned property. He's had numerous mercedes... you can see the dichotomy. He sees me as the self sufficient foreigner, with an income higher than most women in his culture, but the irony is, 1) all my money goes to rent in various cities, I can therefore never have anything of my own and 2) he has earned far more than I have, yet here I am keeping my own keep.

In some ways I feel the money situation bothers HIM more than me and I hope to get some insight on that as well. What he's expecting form me. He has been trying to suggest different jobs (professional jobs I mean) for me to get a different or higher income (althoug he doesnt know how much i earn, we do not discuss numbers either).

Incidentally I spoke to one of my Canadian girlfriends today who is married to someone who is financially in a similar situation as my boyfriend in terms of his status (but no divorce)> when she asked if my bfd was pying the rent and i replied we split it, she was shocked. "That's not normal for someone in this culture who is well employed and just successfully sold property. Before I was living with my husband he started paying my rent for me (while we were living apart still) so i cant imagine him expecting me to pay half." That comes from a woman who was earning her own keep as an ENglish teacher here initially...It's liike as soon as I try to persuade myself this is fine, the universe sends me another message that it is not...

I am looking at his solar returns and have decided to attempt a profected chart for the next 2 years of his life to try to understand what he's dealing with. I do want to support him emotionally through all this and not be a burden. I want this relationship to last forever. I am willing to sacrifice to make that happen. If it means i have to pay my own way i guess thre are worse things. I know there's a lot he doesn't tell me on purpose so as to 1) not worry me and 2) to keep the past in the past. When I find the proper forum thread for it here I will post the profections/solars and ask for corrections or input.
______

Edited to add: I just asked a related horary that should clarify this issue of whether he is treating me fairly or hiding financial issutes or trying to take advantage of me financially, which is my (secondary) concern. asked "What is his financial situation really/what are his financial capabilities in relationship to me." What i mean by that is: what is his financial status, is he really hurting financially with these other expenses so that he relies on me to split things, OR is he just not wanting to cover things even though he's able.

Here it is.

http://imgur.com/a/VioBm

Late degree, so the "situation has gone as far as it can" or else nothing will change.
He is the very last critical 29th degree of Aquarius therefore he is Saturn. Saturn is sitting in his own 10th house of work and profession. He is neutral in Sagg, nenither dignified nor in detriment, and he's focused on Work. Saturn is also 1) Burnt by the sun (me), 2) trining Jupiter (income) and 3) trining Uranus (not counted as its a modern but it rules the 12th if we do count it/secrets).

His 2nd house and 3rd house are ruled by Jupiter; he is going to meet his income soon.
His 8th house of debt (chart 2nd H) is ruled by Merc. Saturn moves towards debt/Mercury and at the same time Merc/Debt is moving away from him and towards me/Moon. Moon is in detriment in Capricorn so I am weaker than he is.
(is this a sign of him not needing me to split funds and costs?? or a sign the debt will be transferred by me since I'm "compensating" him for losses when I pay for things?) He is conjunct (7 degree orb) me the Sun, burnt by me, but in my 4th of home, his 10th.

Saturn in the chart rules his 12th of hidden secrets...

Jupiter's dignity: neither exalted nor debilitated in Libra. So I"m at a loss here for what it means.

If we take his finances in the first chart: we have the same setup in that the ruler of chart H7 and H8 overlaps (Saturn for both him and his income).
His house of debt (cancer/moon) is applying to him in 4 degrees. But my secondary signif in that chart would also be Moon so I'm not sure what to think.
Last aspect of the Moon is to trine myself (ASC) and before that, to sextile Neptunian illusion> Am i being decieved???
(??) thoughts?

18
Polina, alimony is different than child support. If a wife never worked during 20 years of marriage, she may be entitled to alimony.

Why should this man love and want to be with you? You've listed about any possibility under the sun, other than that you are intrinsically worth loving for yourself, and that he is understandably smitten with you.

Doing the synastry could illuminate the dynamics of your relationship soon enough.

If you normally struggle to maintain your self-esteem, whether solo or with a BF, or if you often suffer from jealousy, then this is the fundamental, underlying issue. Not the business about why he isn't supporting you financially.

It's like there's this serpent coiled around your heart, whispering hurtful suspicions in your ear, and feasting on your sense of self-worth. The serpent is the tenant in your apartment who isn't paying his fair share of the rent. Time to evict it, no?

I think you have to let go of "what men would do in his culture." Maybe there are parts of his culture that both of you would be just as happy to escape. Maybe focus on what is a good modus operandi for two mature, westernized adults living in 2016.

If you both have an income, sharing household expenses in a proportional split seems entirely fair to me. At least, that's how the finances work in my 20-year marriage.

Yes, you may have fairness, the weight of his cultural traditions, and what you really and truly want on your side. But life isn't fair.

I'm not a great horary chart reader, but Paul is. If you cannot except his reading, then I'm not sure what else you think astrology can give you.

I am sorry for coming across as so negative, Polina. I do feel your hurt and consternation. But a good astrologer or a good friend wouldn't try to build up false hope if the horoscope didn't justify it.

With all good wishes for your future, W.

19
Polina, I took a peak at the second chart, but it seems to me there is a more fundamental issue here. Namely, you learned earlier that your BF lied about his divorce. Now you think he's lying about his finances. (Which I would read as an 8th house matter, as the second house from the 7th.) On a one to ten scale, how would you rate your trust of your BF?

The ruler of the 8th house, Jupiter, looks OK but not brilliant. In its own terms, but that's about it.

The moon (your stake in the matter) applies to a square with Jupiter, which perfects prior to the other signifiers working out. This suggests that even if you gain some clarity on your BF's finances, it won't be to your liking.

The sun (you) in the 4th house of home (apartment) applies to a conjunction with Saturn (your BF,) but the thing of it is, that as it does so, Saturn (him) will be combust-- in a weakened state. Jupiter, sun, and Saturn all conjunct on Dec. 10. I would read this as you will get some clarity on your BF's financial situation, and he does not seem to be deceiving you financially, but then with a combust Saturn in the mix you might not find your BF to be sufficiently wealthy for you to become a stay-at-home Mom and financially dependent on him.

The late degree rising gives a cautionary note, as does Saturn ruling the 7th house. Some astrologers think that it means the querent will not like the astrologer's answer, as the astrologer is also a 7th house matter.

Just as a footnote: not everybody who drives a Mercedes has fully paid for it. A lot of luxury cars on the road carry big monthly car loan payments.

Hopefully Paul will return and give you a better reading than I did.

20
Hi Waybread,
Thanks for helping with the reading and to your note about trust, I can't put a number on it but it's under question. I've been used by men in the past and never see it coming. I want to be sure it dosnt happen again tho i know there are no guarantees.

Please do not misunderstand one thing: I do and did accept Paul's reading. But 1) am trying to gather as much information about this situation as possible, and 2) As you noted there is the serpent. I have had 3 separate friends comment on my situation without any comment or compliant from me, and that's without them knowing the details of our relationship (about the details of his divorce and the order of events etc). ieFIrst comes a question of if i'm still dating him and when i say i moved to his city and we're living together, they ask if he's paying for my housing, and then shocked that he's not, "that's really unusual"/"that's not normal.".

So while it didnt even OCCUR to me to question his finances or NOT offer to split the rent at the outset, this issue keeps returning this month. Hence horary #2 here. In truth I feel like an idiot when girlfriends tell me they'd never have agreed to this setup with him or that no woman from his culture would hvae. It makes me feel taken advantage of, even as I do not know for sure that he IS taking advantage of me. Again, when I moved to be with him, there was not a thoguht in my mind that it was possible he might take advantage of my earnings. Now there are questions..
I would read this as you will get some clarity on your BF's financial situation, and he does not seem to be deceiving you financially, but then with a combust Saturn in the mix you might not find your BF to be sufficiently wealthy for you to become a stay-at-home Mom and financially dependent on him.
If he is being HONEST and he just cant support me financially, that is the best answer I can hpoe for in this situation. I was not clear with Saturn ruling the 12th what the relation is though to deception. (I have read double bodied signs on the DSC is a clear sign the quesited is deceiving the querent but i have less experience in what the querent ruling H12 would be).
However if it turns out he's trying to save money by putting more of a financial burden on me, at my expense, that is not respectful or honest of my own efforts and work and income and i'd not be OK with that at least not without an explanation as to why.

That's what the second chart is about, is he being honest about finances with me and how we're dividing payments or not.
I mean it could be (wild example) that he earns 10 times more than me, and even with aliment payments he can pocket a lot of cash each month -- I have no idea.

I'm not clear then if the square to his income Jupiter is a sign of that struggle or not.

I look forward to Paul's input here too if he is around and has time.

21
Polina

I can't spend too much more time on this unfortunately, except to advise that we should keep looking at the first chart too as many of these issues are likely to be found there.

What I will say briefly on the second chart is that it's not for nothing that we see the very late degree rising - I suspect you are not so much looking for greater clarity on a situation, but instead looking to find evidence or some proof of something which may not even be there.

You answered my question about what you're most interested here and that is that you love this man and you've expressed a desire to start a life with him and have a child with him. Perhaps the very first obstacle for you to overcome here is to release your fears or anxiety of being taken advantage of. What I would suggest to you then is to not look for ways that you're a victim but try to build on a foundation of trust with this man. If you already don't trust him, this relationship is in trouble. If you're really interested in the man, it probably isn't as important to find out via a horary what his financial status is - having a conversation about it or just trusting him would have much more benefit. It can be a tricky thing to make sure we don't use horary to essentially prod and pry into every aspect of someone's life looking to see if we're being lied to - the very fact we may want to do it is itself a suggestion that there are trust issues which need working on. And asking all these horaries may in fact just fuel a bad habit which should be stopped if you want a healthy relationship. I'd liken it hiring a private investigator.

If you really love this man, does it really matter how much he's earning?

I only looked briefly at the chart, I'd be inclined to focus more on the first chart and your initial feelings and anxieties at that time. But Waybread gave a fair reading of the second. I'd just add that 4th house matters seem to now be highly important - likely the fact you must split rent etc. Waybread highlights the application of the Sun to Saturn, and that the Sun rests in the 4th house (home) but it's also worth pointing out that the Sun in fact appears to first apply to Mars, the ruler of the fourth.

In reality the Sun will perfect with both Mars and Saturn at roughly the same time. Whilst we can look at the significators and make sense of this, the reality is that the other way of looking at it is that your significator applies to both malefics, quickly applying to Jupiter first (Lord 8).

It seems there will be at least a discussion about finances and the home, but it could be a show-down. Make sure you keep in mind that you love the man first and foremost.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

22
Thanks Paul, even brief input is much appreciated.

Ok so I apply to L8, Jupiter, My Debt but His Income (meaning I'll lose money?) first, and then to boyfriend/Sat and Mars/our home.

I haven't been planning a showdown, we have never argued, so i hope that doesn't happen. Early on he said we'd never argue (almost a prophesy) and so it has been, thus far.

Yes I do love him. I was trying to make the point that, when you've been taken advantage of in the past, and never saw it coming, there is something to be said for protecting oneself. The only way I know to do that is to ask a horary for insights. In my last relationship my boyfriend stole a significant amount of cash from me. I didnt see it coming, it wasnt in any chart, as I hadn't asked any. I will never get (or earn) that amount back. I would like that situation not to repeat itself. I do not expect it will -- but I didnt ever expect it to happen then either.
So I'm using horary as protection, if you will. What am I not seeing? Because there seems to always be something i do not see.

I do not have the benefit as other women do, of having had a 5 or 10 or 20 year marriage with a provider (or non provider) who intrinsically respected and trusted me. I have entered every past relationship with blind trust and in many cases it wasn't warranted, the man broke that trust in different ways. Some cheated with other women, some stole money, some told me they wanted something serious and that ended up not true. I am not saying men are bad. I adore men :-) But this obviously gives me reason to be cautious going forward and not just presume all will be fine and dandy. I HOPE it will be. I want love/marriage just like anyone else does, and I've certainly waited long enough for it. But i would like some indication if there are red flags I should be wary of. Because clearly trusting men blindly in the past led to some painful experiences for me. Hence the readings.

Trust but verify...is the best approach, no?

Thanks again Paul as your help is always insightful and appreciated.

23
Polina, I've been criticized in the past by other querents for behaving like a counselor or friend at the kitchen table, when what they wanted was an astrological chart reading.

I think your issue is the opposite: you are asking for astrological chart readings, when really what you want is validation of your feelings and beliefs about what your BF should be doing but isn't. Essentially, you can listen to your inner serpent and girlfriends, or you can ask for an astrological chart reading and accept its consequences.

At some level, too, you have to take responsibility for not clarifying finances and future expectations with your BF prior to moving in with him.

I think you have to forget about norms in your BF's culture. Most western women (like me, and I've been married 2x for a total of 40 years) shared household expenses with our spouse/BF proportional to our respective incomes.

Despite my propensity to dispense advice about personal matters large and small, really, a horoscope either says something or it doesn't. I can accept that my readings are flawed, but Paul (the moderator of this horary board) is top-drawer. Wishing and hoping that our readings coincided with your hoped-for relationship and explaining why we don't get your situation still doesn't give you a different horoscope with the answers you want.

I am sorry, I wish they did.

24
waybread wrote: At some level, too, you have to take responsibility for not clarifying finances and future expectations with your BF prior to moving in with him.
Absolutely. I do take responsibility for that - it's my fault that I did not ask ahead of time. It didnt occur to me at that point to question his motives or his situation. I agreed to his suggestion and that closed the topic. I tend to trust blindly and love until proven otherwise. Case in point.
Despite my propensity to dispense advice about personal matters large and small, really, a horoscope either says something or it doesn't. I can accept that my readings are flawed, but Paul (the moderator of this horary board) is top-drawer. Wishing and hoping that our readings coincided with your hoped-for relationship and explaining why we don't get your situation still doesn't give you a different horoscope with the answers you want.
I am sorry, I wish they did.
Just to clarify I'm not looking for the answers I want, I am looking for the truth> If i cant get it from real life, the horary should show me what the real situation is. It is a means of unblinding me from the Neptunian fog I'm in, if you will.

Waybread I hope you're not offended by my questions or attempts to find information. You've said you'er not a great horary reader but in my book you are very good at it and very expreienced. and i truly appreciate your input as I"ve said before. So please know that! :' :D

I know you feel I came here for personal advice, and while i dont mind receiving it, honestly am interested in what the stars say because as we've noted, in addition to the serpents, outsiders, girlfriends, etc, giving me advice, i have quite a network that I can rely on for psychological or emotional or other input if need be. So really I am interested here in 1) learning more astrology and 2) knowing what the stars say, because the stars cannot lie or deceive us as people can. It is difficult to explain to Western-minded people an Eastern-minded approach, sort of like telling a Gemini moon how to experience emotion in a water like way, it's just not something that's easily done. And I'm right now caught between cultures in a way and trying to figure out what is the moderate path in terms of expectations. I wont thus try to persuade anyone of anything, that's not my goal here.

I wanted to know if we'd marry within ayear: answer is no.
I want to know if he's decieivving me about finance: you both suggest that no, he is not. So there i have the answers :D