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Reference place
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 127

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Reference place Reply with quote

I've become increasingly uncertain as to what reference place to use with Solar returns, birth place or place of residence. I'm sure arguments for either are valid enough, so I'm more interested in people's experience: what works best?
Thanks
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yukionna

I look forward to hearing other people's replies as well. I always use my natal place. I was born in Ireland and have lived in the UK for 12 years and have always found my natal place to be accurate. I look forward to hearing what others think.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good question Yukionna!

is it possible for both to work? i have been torn on this topic for some time.. being the kind of person who loves cutting edge and new ideas - i gravitated quickly to astrocartography and relocation charts.. i have lived over 3000 miles from my place of birth most of my life.. i know what both charts look like and while i find the natal more relevant, i still feel there is merit in the changed angles for where i continue to live so far from my place of birth.

with solar return charts i tend to favour the natal location, although i look at both.. i would say the natal location is a stronger vibration then the relocated one.. but i know jb morin liked working with relocated charts and who am i to argue with him? actually - he was just an astrologer who was hip to the idea or relocated charts way before his time! - regardless, i go with natal charts (place of birth for solar returns), if i can only look and consider one chart. that is my best answer.. i guess i am becoming more conservative if forced into a choice!
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul and James for your opinion. My tendency is towards birthplace as well. Do you happen to have 'On solar revolutions'? What do they use there?
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If were to count up the old astrologers opinion, probably most would favor the birthplace. Several years ago I set up a Yahoo Group dedicated to Solar Returns as delineated using Morinus' system, and we used the location at the time of the return. For celebrities, particularly politicians, this isn't easy because we didn't always know where they were on a particular birthday.

I lean toward the place at the time of the return, but if I can't determine that, I use the birthplace.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom

I'm just curious about this approach in using the place of the return. Say I am born in Hawaii, lived all my adult life in New York but at the time of my solar return I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks in Thailand, which place do you prefer to use as the return location? I'm assuming Thailand?
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Here is the logic as explained by Morin. At birth we are somehow "infused" with the planetary influences (moderns would say "energies"). If we were born someplace else, those influences would be modified as the houses and angles are modified. Let's face it, we all agree with this in some form or another. I was born in New Jersey USA. If I was born in Miami Florida, my chart would be significantly different even if I was born at the same instant that I was born in NJ. No disagreement possible.

Morin believed that the return of the Sun to its natal place also "infused" the native with the influences of the coming year. Therefore, the influences that were "received" were those of the location at the time of the return.

In your example, yes Thailand would be the proper location. You were in Thailand for a reason and that reason has to do with your destiny, or so Morin would have argued.

This of course opens us up to the deduction that we can alter our destiny, somewhat, by altering our location at the time of the return and there are some astrologers who agree with that, but most dismiss it. I believe Morin would have argued that you might alter some details that way, but the [primary directions] are going to get you regardless of your location on or about your birthday.

The group I ran for a while did get some really good results using the location at the time of the return when we could determine that location. But another consideration emerged. It was suggested that casting the return for the location at the time of the return showed your relationship in that year to that place, but if you weren't living there, it didn't apply elsewhere so much. In that case you would use the birth place.

I think, but I'm not sure, this was demonstrated by tennis champion Arthur Ashe in 1975. His birthday was on or near the Wimbledon tournament, and the year he won, 1975, the relocated chart showed his victory, but the chart cast for the natal place showed the year better. This is one example, and I am no longer sure it was Ashe or even Wimbledon. I only know it worked in this one instance whomever it was.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tom,

in summary for me what you are basically saying is - jim lewis=modern day version of jb morin... essentially this is a belief in the significance of the location a person is living, as opposed to where they were born.. it has more to it then that, like the yummy feature astrologers can sell : "you would be better living over here on your jupiter line' then that pesky saturn line you are living on now, but you get the idea.

given a choice, i still maintain the importance of the natal angles over the relocated ones, so where does that put me? by the way, they did re-release the classic book written by jim lewis on astrocartography, so it is easier to buy now then for a long time where it wasn't readily available..

'the psychology of astro*carto*grahy' ...jim lewis with kenneth irving..
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed the connection between astro*carto*graphy and relocated solar returns a while ago. It's a philosophical connection not one of technique. Morin obviously would not have known about astro-cartography, and I doubt Jim Lewis, who died a while back if I recall correctly, probably never heard of Morin.

I've never done any work with A*C*G, but I've wondered about it. For a brief while, back in my 20s I lived in south Florida. My brother lived in Ft. Lauderdale about a day's ride north of me. He came to visit once or twice. He never said it to me, but he said to a mutual friend, "I never saw Tom happier than when he was in Florida." Years later when I took up astrology and I stumbled across Lewis' work, I remembered the remark. It does take a lot of 12th house stuff and put it in the 11th - much better. I'll use both methods when I have both locations.

I wish there was some kind of mandatory astrology law that everyone becomes familiar with Book 21 in Morin's Astrologia Gallica. The reason is that his book on Solar returns or "Revolutions" as they were called [Book 23], is one of the most instructive astrology books I ever encountered. The problem is that it would be tough, very tough but not impossible, to just pick up Book 23 without first having read and grasped Book 21.

Morin's system (and a lot of it was not original to him) of delineating returns depended a great deal on the angles. Change the location and we change the angles. He's consistent if nothing else
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed it is a philosophical consideration, but it impacts one's technique directly.. as i see it morin is saying ""place"" matters.. if place matters for solar returns, i can't see how one separates it from place not being relevant for the rest of the year too, but i suppose one can cling to the idea of 'this is how the older astrologers like morin did it, so i am going to do it that way too'.. to me it is very much a philosophical consideration but it directly impacts what one is doing with the astrology as a consequence.. for me jim lewis was advocating the same thing as morin, but wasn't just advocating it for one moment of the year only.. i am not dismissing the importance of solar returns here, but just stating how i see this consideration of place is very relevant, or not to one's astrology and the way they have of using it.

i have read book 21.. not sure about book 23 - what is that one about? i still have yet to get the one on mundane astrology..

for clarification on jim lewis's approach as i see it - it is all about the angles and what connects with the angles depending on the place one puts oneself.. houses are not really as relevant as the angles and what planets hit the angles.. again - this could be applied a few different ways depending on ones philosophical or astrological approach..

all this goes directly into the title of this thread - reference place..
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments guys. I read Morin's 21, so should be ok with 23, I might even have it, have to check when I'm back in a few months.
I have to admit that this relocation hype that's been going on on some boards never really interested me, not realizing that when choosing place of residence for SR charts I'm doing the exact same thing. I often feel I'd like a clear cut path to follow, at least in astrology which is probably the last place where I'll find that. Although I tend to want to take the birthplace, there are cases where this seems silly. My brother was born in Australia, lived there for one year and then was moved to The Hague where he lived the last 60 years (I kid you not). It doesn't seem right to take Perth for SR charts in his case. For myself who lives a traveling life it may be interesting to see how a fairly coincidental place of residence may work out for the year to come. We're live-aboards, and always stay somewhere for half a year until it's warm enough to move on again. On the other hand, if someone's on vacation at the time of the SR and is in a particular place for just a week or so it doesn't feel right to take that.
I'd like to get Abu Ma'shar on Solar Revolutions at some point, will see what that has to say about the matter.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a quick look through Abu Mashar's On Revolutions, translated by Ben Dykes and couldn't find a clear instruction despite so much emphasis being put on the Ascendant. It might be there, but I didn't see it.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

regarding ben dykes translation of 'Abu Mashar's On Revolutions' - good book, but i would have been looking for some support for relocation charts and i don't recall seeing any either.

i also recall this topic coming up on another thread a couple of years ago..

here is what my search for shlomo sela turned up.. yukionna, i think you might enjoy reading the comments as it relates back to your question/s as i understand it.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9166&highlight=shlomo+sela
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the impressions I got from Dykes' writing on this subject and the translation was that the SR would be set for the location of the astrologer, like a horary chart. That was just a gut feeling based on what I perceived to be the tone of the writing. Of course if that was the case, then, should the client be from somewhere distant, the astrologer would be using a relocation chart.

I wonder, though if Abu Mashar wasn't writing a how-to for the charts of the nobility in his culture. The running gag is that in order to do everything he says to do with a solar return, it would take a year to complete one delineation. That's hyperbole of course, but if the astrologer was strictly working for noblemen, they would most likely all be born locally, so the question never came up.

On the other thread, I believe Mark is correct; Morin was the first to state unequivocally that the return chart should be relocated.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Reference place Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
I've become increasingly uncertain as to what reference place to use with Solar returns, birth place or place of residence. I'm sure arguments for either are valid enough, so I'm more interested in people's experience: what works best?
Thanks


I was born in Northern hemisphere and have lived in Western and Southern hemisphere- so it not just a change of one or two sign away -it is Day/Night difference or winter/Summer apart . If I concentrate on just Sun/ASC/MC/Nodes one thing or the other clicks either in place of birth or in place of residence.

So, to sum it up, I am not sure either.

PD Confused
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