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Accidental dignity
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Jens



Joined: 17 Dec 2016
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Accidental dignity Reply with quote

Hi
If you look at famous boxers like Ali,Robinson ,they have weak Mars by sign but strong accidentally. This could mean two things: In two cases Mars would be in Aries siderally, or else,accidental dignity is more powerful than signs.
But we can check a lot more boxers at astrodatabank http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Vocation_:_Sports_:_Boxing

edited:Just look at the large number with Mars in Taurus,Libra and Cancer,though in some cases angular. Note also that quite a few have Sun-Mars conjunction.Combustion didn`t seem to have made Mars ineffective.
What would a Hellenic astrologer say about this.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Accidental dignity Reply with quote

Well, since you bring it up, many Hellenistic astrologers demonstrably used sidereal placements (i.e., a zodiac that didn't begin at the vernal equinox), so my guess is that they wouldn't have had a problem with that. (Accidental dignity could still be more important, though.)
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Jens



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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Accidental dignity Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Well, since you bring it up, many Hellenistic astrologers demonstrably used sidereal placements (i.e., a zodiac that didn't begin at the vernal equinox), so my guess is that they wouldn't have had a problem with that. (Accidental dignity could still be more important, though.)

But in many cases there`s no acidental dignity and Mars would still be in Taurus,Libra and Cancer siderally. If you can have a look at the data
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's because essential dignity doesn't work the way you are proposing. In Ali's case, he has Mars and Saturn conjoined in the 10th sign sidereal Aries. Saturn is out-of-sect, so will produce status for Ali, but that and the fact it is in fall shows shame or scandal (as it did throughout his life, but particularly when he was banned from boxing for refusing to do military service which was, incidentally, when both the Sun and the ASC were directed through Saturn's bounds). Mars as lord of the sign shows the latter part of his life, and being in-sect, in its own sign and being supported by its mutual reception with the Sun showed the eventual comeback that Ali had and his subsequent fame and success. Ali's health problems later in life due to his occupation is suggested by Saturn afflicting the ASC from the 10th sign.

In short, accidental dignity will show with how much force a planet will impact the native's life while its essential condition along with its aspects and its general condition, including its relationship to its lord, will show whether such force is beneficial for, or troublesome to, the native. An angular Mars may show athletic or military prowess, but it doesn't show fame or success in those endeavours unless two things happen: the chart shows a famous or eminent person and Mars is somehow configured to manage the native's fame or success. I looked into a few boxers in the past and I noticed that they generally had a pretty forceful Mercury. I put this down to the coordination required to do any form of martial art.
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Jens



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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But note that the 200 boxers at ADB don`t all have Mars in Aries siderally,many have it in late tropical Taurus,and then there`s the other huge number of them with Mars in Libra and Cancer.Siderally they `d be in Gemini or Virgo.
I`m not entirely convinced by the sideral theory.
In some charts MC ruler is conjunct Mars but many other cannot easily be explained. Some of them show no indication of a martial sport.

Somebody said dignified Mars tries to protect himself from danger,Mars in exile/fall puts himself in danger,like boxers do. Some people have a knack for twisting things in favour of their favourite system.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the problem lies in the assumption that the sign placement/essential dignity of Mars should affect the likelihood of someone becoming a boxer. Have you looked at the combinations for fighters and athletes given by ancient and medieval authors?
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jens wrote:
But note that the 200 boxers at ADB don`t all have Mars in Aries siderally,many have it in late tropical Taurus,and then there`s the other huge number of them with Mars in Libra and Cancer.Siderally they `d be in Gemini or Virgo.
I`m not entirely convinced by the sideral theory.
In some charts MC ruler is conjunct Mars but many other cannot easily be explained. Some of them show no indication of a martial sport.

Somebody said dignified Mars tries to protect himself from danger,Mars in exile/fall puts himself in danger,like boxers do. Some people have a knack for twisting things in favour of their favourite system.


Late tropical taurus = Caput Algol- losing the head would be appropriate but they get paid for it, so it must be money thing.
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Jens



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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Perhaps the problem lies in the assumption that the sign placement/essential dignity of Mars should affect the likelihood of someone becoming a boxer. Have you looked at the combinations for fighters and athletes given by ancient and medieval authors?


Not yet,but I just looked at rugby players.Mars in Aries/scorpio is as common in these as Mars in Libra or Cancer.The amazing thing is the Gauguelin effect.Many have Mars cadente and in the 12th or 6th sign,so ,it can`t simply be explained away by whole houses.Ex: two have Scorpio rising with Mars in Libra. But if we think the Sun looks bigger at least one hour after rising and feels warmer 1-2 hours after noon..
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Wade



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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Accidental dignity Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Perhaps the problem lies in the assumption that the sign placement/essential dignity of Mars should affect the likelihood of someone becoming a boxer.


I agree with Martin's pushback here. I think what's very easy to do is to sit back and think, "ah, this person is a boxer. boxing is a form of fighting, which is a Mars thing.. I should look at this person's Mars. oh! look at that -- it's in debility. that's odd!" there's a tendency to jump straight to the planet that would more or less naturally signify the behavior we're observing, and assume that planet's natal placement is "responsible" for a native's behavior. so we look to Mars for people's relationship to sport and fighting, Venus perhaps to love and attraction, etc.

trouble is, that method of interrogation isn't very productive and will only get you so far. to a certain extent, yes, we are all typified by all our natal placements, and a person's Mars placement will certainly give us insight into how they tap into (and/or out of) Martial energy.

but historically, that wasn't how you'd approach a chart. Mars takes, on average, 2 months to move through a sign. we wouldn't expect everyone born with that Mars -- even a Mars in the same degree, if we wanted to get down to it -- to demonstrate their Mars the same way. in fact, when looking at Ali's nativity, Mars has more to say about 4th & 9th house affairs in his life than it does about Ali himself, even though -- in our own way -- we become walking, breathing talismans for all parts of what makes us up.

when looking at a nativity, this is how you might approach it:

- take a look at the rising sign. what does that say about this personal physical constitution, their behavior and attitudes, values and goals?
- how about the ruler of that rising sign. what planet is it? what kind of energy does that planet emit? what sign is that planet in, and in what house? what phase do we find it in, what aspects does it make/receive? how does that modify expression?
- what planets are angular, thereby contributing more of their influence in a native's life than planets that are cadent?
- what is the relationship that the luminaries have to each other? what signs are they in, and how do they relate to their dispositors?
- how are the Moon and Mercury positioned -- sign, house, aspect -- and what does that say about the development of the animal and rational minds?
- and how about temperament -- is this person leaning choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine?

if we take Ali's chart, for example (not replicated in this post, but available to view here: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ali,_Muhammad), there's a lot more contributing to his career as a boxer -- and a prominent one at that -- than his Mars placement.

Ali has Leo rising, a bestial fiery sign that is known for operating a sole unit. there's heat to this sign rising, and amongst other things, a stubbornness and a tendency to attack and prowl.

the Sun is in Capricorn. might not strike you immediately as a sign that would contribute to boxing, but Capricorn is a particularly violent sign. it's the domicile of Saturn, the most elevated planet in the chart, and the exaltation of Mars. what's more, the Sun is in the terms of Mars, which contributes to the type of mentality we're dealing with here. the Sun is separating from a trine to Saturn (TKO, anyone?), applying to a square to a peregrine, debilitated Mars. when that square perfects, the Sun will be in Aquarius, so we have two hot, choleric planets (Sun & Mars) in debility, in square. looks to me like someone who will find a natural outlet in aggressive sports.

we have two focally angular planets: Saturn, retrograde in Taurus, and Venus separating from his received square in Aquarius. notice Venus rules the 10th house, and Saturn rules the 6th and 7th. there's a mixture of energy here where these two planets, recently in aspect, are separating but separating whilst retrograde. Venus tends to soften, especially when setting in the west, but here she contributes to delays and false starts. this double retrogradation between her and Saturn speaks volumes, I think, about the battling of others for sport, and the volatile ups-and-downs Ali experienced in his life. Venus is also in the terms of Mars.

ascendant: Leo [+1 hot, +1 dry]
ruling planet: Sun [+1 hot, +1 dry]
planet in ascendant: none
planet aspecting ascendant: Saturn [+1 cold, +1 dry], Venus [+1 warm, +1 wet]
lunar phase: 1st quarter [+1 hot, +1 wet]
lunar sign: Aquarius [+1 hot, +1 wet]
season: winter [+1 cold, +1 wet]

depends on how you choose to calculate temperament, of course, but using some basic approaches as outlined above, we have +5 hot, +2 cold, +3 dry, +3 wet. essentially what we're left with here is an abundance of heat. it takes both heat and dryness together to create the choleric temperament, but surely heat alone can contribute to the life path that you've assessed is more Mars' responsibility.

we could go on and look layer after layer in this nativity to evaluate exactly what part of this nativity gave Ali a proclivity toward boxing and every holon the idea of boxing belongs to, but it probably isn't that helpful. the point is, it's never as simple as saying, "but these boxers' Mars placements are debilitated."
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject: Mars by Sign Reply with quote

Hi there - undertaking research by looking at sign position is notoriously difficult. The following is from Lee Lehmann, who is an experienced researcher:

Lee Lehmann – the “apogee-perigee effect, as well as the repetition of retrograde degrees, provide fundamental challenges to any statistical study of the Sun and planets by sign (only the Moon is an exception). This challenge may be sufficient to explain why no statistical studies by sign have been truly successful: the amount of normal variance is simply too high.” J Lee Lehmann (1989) Essential Dignities. Whitford Press, PA. p. 142.

It is very difficult with Mars' sign placement because the planet's orbit is highly elliptical which means that its occupancy of zodiacal signs varies greatly. For example, in signs Cancer through Scorpio, Mars will occupy these signs anything up to 20% more frequently than the Sun.





The most extreme variation is between Leo/Virgo and Pisces, whereby Mars is over 50% more likely to be in Leo/Virgo than in Pisces in any random group of horoscopes.

In signs Sagittarius through Taurus, Mars will be found less frequently than the Sun. Mars spends most time in Cancer, Leo, Virgo and Libra and least time in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces and Aries. Hence any attempt to establish whether Mars is more or less common in any particular sign must take account of these variations.

With respect to Mars in Taurus, the planet is less commonly found in this sign than the Sun, but with a variation of less than 10%. Mars is found as often in Taurus as it is in Sagittarius. If boxers showed a preponderance of Mars in Taurus placements, the researcher would have to show that this variation was significant in relation to Mars placements in a randomly generated control group. If Mars appeared as often in the sample as it did in Sagittarius I would expect this be down to chance.

Your observation that there seems to be more boxers with Mars in Libra and Cancer may not survive comparison with a control group because we would expect any particular group of horoscopes to show Mars more frequently in these signs than in Aries, Pisces, Aquarius or Capricorn. For example, Mars in Libra or Cancer is likely to occur around 35% more frequently than Mars in Aries or Capricorn.
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Wade



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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

really excellent contribution, astralwanderer. I didn't actually know just how disparate Mars' orbit through the signs was. thanks for this! Very Happy
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Hi Wade - thanks for your feedback. I did a lot of work on Mars' synodic cycle a couple of years ago for another topic, but the work is relevant here.

The essential point about Mars is that for most of it's synodic cycle with the Sun it behaves just like an inner planet, spending a great deal of it's time within a few signs of the solar position. However, for a limited time in its synodic cycle it behaves like an outer planet and is opposite the Sun and retrograde.

In terms of aspects, Mars is much more likely to be conjunct the Sun in any particular horoscope (in the sense of being in the same sign as the Sun) than it is opposite the Sun. Furthermore, in most horoscopes in any particular group of individuals, Mars will be within a waning or waxing sextile with the Sun.

A cursory look at a selection of the ADB horoscopes for boxers (or any group of individuals) will show this very quickly.

It is my understanding that Gauquelin looked at zodiacal positions in an effort to establish if signs were correlated with particular professions. However he was unable to find anything of significance.

However, as astrologers know, he did establish that Mars (and some of the other planets) had correlations with specific professions of eminent people through diurnal position. Ali's horoscope, as one of an eminent sportsman, is a good example of this.
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Link Reply with quote

Hi there - this link seems quite apposite in this context.

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/

It is a very helpful summary of the strengths and weaknesses of different approaches to astrology.
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Jens



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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great astralwanderer and great work by Lehman.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jens wrote:
But note that the 200 boxers at ADB don’t all have Mars in Aries sidereally many have it in late tropical Taurus...

Pankajdubey wrote:
Late tropical taurus = Caput Algol- losing the head would be appropriate but they get paid for it, so it must be money thing.

Actually, after checking I noted that the on-line ADB has 307 boxers. But there’s no convenient way to calculate all those charts in the sidereal zodiac, so I pulled up the 59 charts of boxers that are in the ADB 4 file on my computer. As it turns out, Pankaj may have a clue to Mars in the charts of athletes.

ADB data can’t be used for proof of astrological principles since the data is random rather than collected in any controlled way. (In contrast, the Gauquelin data can be used for valid research.) Also ADB almost always has errors in category files, so that a number of charts seem to be accidentally placed in a file that aren’t related to that file. Also, replication of results is always necessary to support any principle. But aside from these problems, ADB studies can still be viewed as interesting to astrologers.

Mars positions in the 59 sidereal charts for boxers presents patterns that don’t seem to be random. For example, there is only one Mars placement in Libra, and not a single Mars placement in Leo. (These anomalies could simply be chance as 59 is a small number for research.) The sign that has the most Mars placements is...Taurus with 11 placements!

So I looked into this further. Six of these 11 Mars positions fall within a short span from 8.9 to 11.8 of Taurus. This area happens to be in the Egyptian (sidereal) terms of Mercury, but more significantly, that area of the zodiac contains a cluster of six stars in Perseus (the hero who beheaded Medusa, Algol). This cluster is headed by alpha Perseus (Mirfak) at 8 degrees of Taurus.

I didn’t find any consistent pattern for the terms in other placements of Mars for boxers. Neither did I find a consistent pattern for the 27 Jyotish mansions, though an anomaly in 76 charts of tennis players had six out of the nine placements of Mars in Gemini in the lunar mansion of Jupiter. (Mars positions ranged between 20 and 28.7 degrees of Gemini.) This is the mansion of Punarvasu which contains the bright stars, Castor and Pollux, the athletically endowed Greek Dioscuri.

Then for Mars in Sagittarius for tennis players, five of the nine Mars positions fell in the terms of Jupiter. These terms from zero to 12 Sagittarius align with the first lunar mansion of Sagittarius (zero to 13 degrees 20 minutes). This part of the sky contains a great number of stars including the tail of the Scorpion and the bow and arrow of the constellation of Sagittarius. Again (as in the charts of boxers) for the 79 tennis players, only one Mars fell in sidereal Libra.

These anomalies suggest that stars may play a key role for the manifestation of planetary placements, and perhaps terms matter sometimes as well as the lunar mansions of Jyotish. The mansions (related to the ancient nakshatras) are identified by stars and asterisms within their borders. It might be an interesting exercise to look at the stars and asterisms within the various planetary terms (bounds) of the zodiac. Working with stars is easier in the sidereal zodiac as their degrees and minutes remain constant through the centuries.

For research, since there are 307 boxers in the ADB file, it would be possible to use those charts as replication by eliminating the 59 charts in ADB 4. If anyone would like the data for the ADB boxing and tennis files in order to calculate the tropical charts, I’d be happy to send it privately. Email eastwest9@snowcrest.net
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