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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Southern Hemisphere tropical vs. sidereal

 
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jazztaprazzta



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Southern Hemisphere tropical vs. sidereal Reply with quote

Ok I was thinking about this for some time. For the tropical zodiac, some astrologers(Dane Rudhyar for example) say that the signs are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere, right? Because it's practically season-based. But for the sidereal zodiac, they're not reversed, because it's based on the real stellar constellations (now what is a "real constellation" is a different matter altogether, since even the "real constellations" were imagined in someone's mind).

This should be the most easy and most direct way to prove which zodiac is correct. Yet, I've not seen such research. Someone born on 25th of March has Sun in tropical Aries, if born in the USA, but is a Sun in tropical Libra, if he was born in Argentina, and is a Sun in sidereal Pisces regardless of where he was born.

Is anyone aware of research that compares these 2 systems in the southern hemisphere?

For me personally, I am starting to think that the signs most probably don't exist at all... however I most definitely see much more meaningful symbolism with the precessed solar returns (and I almost disregard signs, and watch for midpoints and angularity). So maybe precession is real, but the constellations are not?!
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is astrology is not atomic in its nature. You can't isolate what you think the Sun being in Aries or Libra would mean and test it quantitatively. I have always said that to test which zodiac one should use, one should use the suite of timing techniques found in Abu Ma'shar's treatise on solar revolutions. These are sensitive to both sign and bound rulers which are then tracked via transits when timing events over the course of the year. With that in mind you'd think that it is entirely possible to come to a conclusion that has weight outside of one's own head. Unfortunately, no two astrologers read the chart in the same way, so instead of discussing the results of our hypothetical test, the discussion tends to consist of all of the other astrologers stating how they would have gotten to the event, each espousing a completely different set of techniques.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazztaprazzta wrote:
Quote:
For me personally, I am starting to think that the signs most probably don't exist at all... however I most definitely see much more meaningful symbolism with the precessed solar returns (and I almost disregard signs, and watch for midpoints and angularity). So maybe precession is real, but the constellations are not?!

Jazztaprazzta, there might be a confusion of terms here. Sometimes the sidereal zodiac is referred to as "non-precessed" and sometimes "precessed." The tropical zodiac precesses, the sidereal zodiac remains in one place in relation to the stars and constellations. Which method of calculation are you calling "precessed?"
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
.
Quote:
..Unfortunately, no two astrologers read the chart in the same way, so instead of discussing the results of our hypothetical test, the discussion tends to consist of all of the other astrologers stating how they would have gotten to the event, each espousing a completely different set of techniques.

Unfortunately this is very true. That said, it may be that very precise timing techniques are the only way to test the zodiacs, as Konrad has suggested. Those who use the S.V.P. (Fagan-Bradley) ayanamsa would suggest transits so solar return angles as a workable testing ground. TIMING is the ultimate test of zodiacs.

Somewhere on Skyscript there was a prolonged discussion of southern hemisphere births. If there happens to be general agreement among astrologers that a person born in the tropical month of Aries in either hemisphere shares the same traits, then that could discount the supposed seasonal basis of the tropical zodiac, except as a symbolic system.

I don't believe the hemisphere problem has ever been solved by tropical astrologers. There have mainly been opinions and observations as I remember from the Skyscript discussion.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 944
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Konrad wrote:
.
Quote:
..Unfortunately, no two astrologers read the chart in the same way, so instead of discussing the results of our hypothetical test, the discussion tends to consist of all of the other astrologers stating how they would have gotten to the event, each espousing a completely different set of techniques.

Unfortunately this is very true. That said, it may be that very precise timing techniques are the only way to test the zodiacs, as Konrad has suggested. Those who use the S.V.P. (Fagan-Bradley) ayanamsa would suggest transits so solar return angles as a workable testing ground. TIMING is the ultimate test of zodiacs.


Is it impossible to describe the same event using two different languages?

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/geocoincidence.html
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
Therese Hamilton wrote:
Konrad wrote:
.
Quote:
..Unfortunately, no two astrologers read the chart in the same way, so instead of discussing the results of our hypothetical test, the discussion tends to consist of all of the other astrologers stating how they would have gotten to the event, each espousing a completely different set of techniques.

Unfortunately this is very true. That said, it may be that very precise timing techniques are the only way to test the zodiacs, as Konrad has suggested. Those who use the S.V.P. (Fagan-Bradley) ayanamsa would suggest transits so solar return angles as a workable testing ground. TIMING is the ultimate test of zodiacs.


Is it impossible to describe the same event using two different languages?

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/geocoincidence.html


The tropical/sidereal debate is not a question of two different languages though. In the main, people are using the same techniques but with two different points of reference. If we are practising what can be loosely termed as Hellenistic astrology, I find it hard to reconcile that I can have both Mars and Venus ruling my Sun when both the tropical and the sidereal astrologer will be doing the same thing with those lords. When you get down to timing things with the solar and lunar revolutions and transits, the natural ambiguity that exists in general interpretation due to there only being 7 planets recedes dramatically.

I think the key thing to acknowledge first is that the ancients used both reference systems, and the question is then what did they use each one for?
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jazztaprazzta



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Jazztaprazzta, there might be a confusion of terms here. Sometimes the sidereal zodiac is referred to as "non-precessed" and sometimes "precessed." The tropical zodiac precesses, the sidereal zodiac remains in one place in relation to the stars and constellations. Which method of calculation are you calling "precessed?"


Hi Therese,

I just use the sidereal zodiac which remains in one place in relation to the stars and constellations. However, I am very unsure as to whether the symbolism of the signs 'works' at all.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1209
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazztaprazzta wrote:
Quote:
I just use the sidereal zodiac which remains in one place in relation to the stars and constellations. However, I am very unsure as to whether the symbolism of the signs 'works' at all.

Then to avoid confusion it seems best to say that you use sidereal measurements, which can be applied in either zodiac. These measurements ignore procession of the equinoxes and relate only to the stars and constellations.

The problem with signs, at least in the sidereal zodiac, is that there are a number of subdivisions (terms, navamsas, decans etc.) that can be more influential than the sign itself. It may be that testing these subdivisions might give a clearer picture of the boundaries of the 12 signs--assuming that boundaries exist.

I'm working on a small project where I'm comparing the degree positions of Venus and Mars in the charts of about 450 artists and sports people. I want to see if there is any evidence for the smaller areas of signs that are said to relate to individual planets. I'll post the results on the sidereal forum here. I am (so far) seeing some evidence for individual stars measured in longitude.
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