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William Lilly's primary directions - for females?

 
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: William Lilly's primary directions - for females? Reply with quote

Hi all

Very quick query, I am tinkering with a female natal chart using Book 3 of Christian Astrology, and I note that in Lilly's section on the direction of the hylegical places to promittors, when it comes to relationships Lilly basically assumes you are reading the birth chart of a heterosexual male.

For example, if a hylegical place is directed to the body of Venus or the Moon, Lilly says this could signify marriage.

Now this makes sense for a heterosexual male, with Venus and the Moon being the natural significators of females. But to my mind on a conceptual level it doesn't work so well for birth charts for heterosexual females, right? Why would a direction to Venus or the Moon show marriage to a man?

As far as I am aware, in the tradition the natural significator for males is the Sun (not Mars!). This is borne out in the 7th house section of Christian Astrology Book 2 and also in Frawley's Horary Textbook.

So the question in my mind is: when using primary directions for birth charts of heterosexual females, should we count directions of the hylegical places to the Sun as showing interactions with men? In the same way that, for a heterosexual male, directions to Venus or the Moon shows interactions with women?

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks
Robert.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short, no. Venus shows marriage (or amorous relationships) generally, not only for men with women. The focus on this direction signifying one taking a wife is most likely a relic of a male-dominated world rather than a technical distinction. Of course, we are talking generally here, there is the potential of marriage coming from planets other than Venus and the Moon if they are configured towards marriage in a specific chart either from house position or rulership. You also have to consider the annual techniques like profections and the state of the time-lords in the solar revolution before judging that anything will happen in any particular year.
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice Konrad.

I think what you have said makes sense for Venus, as the planet showing love (Venus is the goddess of love after all!).

So conceptually I am ok with using directions to Venus to show an "amorous relationship" as you eloquently put it. I found that part of your advice quite convincing.

But what about the Moon? Lilly does seem to say that directions to aspects or the body of the Moon show interactions with women and/or marriage etc. But I am fairly confident that the Moon does not have any natural signification of amorous relationships, love, marriage etc. She is however a natural significator of women.

What I'm getting at is the conceptual underpinnings here. Does Lilly say that directions to the Moon show relationships with women because the Moon is a natural significator of women? Or is it because the Moon is somehow associated with marriage? If the latter I'd appreciate some citations of traditional sources because I've yet to come across that in my reading.

Thanks!
Robert
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Robert Bailey



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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to go ahead and answer my own question here!

A close reading of Lilly's section on directions confirms that, in the context of relationship inquiries, directions to the aspects or body of Venus concern amorous relationships, so conceptually I think this could apply equally to women and men.

However directions to the aspects or body of the Moon, while occasionally signifying marriage according to Lilly (e.g. Page 675,the Midheaven directed to the body of the Moon), more generally appear to concern interactions with women in general.

So for example the direction of the Ascendant to a square or opposition of Venus (page 662) shows "the Native falls into distempered passions by his folly in Love, courts this and the other Woman, he is slighted by the virtuous, the dishonest have no Bridle (!)"

In contrast, the direction of the Ascendant to the square or opposition of the Moon shows "Controvery and strife with his Mother or Wife, or Women... with very mean (i.e. common) Women, disgrace and affronts from them."

Note the difference - the direction to the square/opposition of Venus has a definite amorous nature, while the direction to the square/opposition of the Moon doesn't have any amorous component to it. It's basically just a tough time with the women in your life!

So I guess that settles it for me: whether the native is male or female, Venus is concerned with matters of romance in general, while the Moon is concerned with matters relating to women. The reason Lilly sometimes says a direction to the Moon can show marriage is because he is assuming a heterosexual male native.

I'm pretty satisfied with that but I'd be curious to hear any dissenting or alternative approaches.

Thanks
Robert
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Robert,

Actually, the Moon has an association with marriage in both Ptolemy and Valens. At the end of the fourth book of the Tertabiblos, Ptolemy advises us to direct the Moon to find out the 'affections of the soul' and for marriage. The Greek term he uses is συμβίωσις ('sumbiōsis') which emphasises the 'living with' aspect of marriage. While Valens, in his second book, chapter 37 in Kroll's edition and 38 in Pingree's, says simply that 'The moon setting under the rays of the sun is not good for marriages' (Riley translation). Here he uses the actual word for marriage, though in the previous paragraph, the same term Ptolemy uses is used freely, with the Moon often considered alongside Venus. Probably more simple is under the significations of the planets in Valens' first chapter of the first book, he lists under the Moon 'living together (i.e. legitimate marriage)'.

What I am getting at is that you are correct to see that the Moon acting as the promissor manifests the theme of women, as the promissor can show the situations and events that the signification of the bound lord of the directed hyleg manifests through, but Lilly is probably picking up on this tradition of seeing the Moon as having some representation of marriage and living together as found in the earlier sources.
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating! Thanks for that Konrad, very illuminating.

My focus over the past 10ish years has been horary and elections, so predicting from the birth chart is the new frontier for me. These kinds of insights are really helpful!

As you seem well versed in the subject, and at the risk of going off topic, can you point me in the direction of some good sources for traditional (pre-1700) natal predictive techniques? I'm mainly interested in primary directions, profections, solar returns and transits.

Thanks again
Robert.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Bailey wrote:
Fascinating! Thanks for that Konrad, very illuminating.

My focus over the past 10ish years has been horary and elections, so predicting from the birth chart is the new frontier for me. These kinds of insights are really helpful!

As you seem well versed in the subject, and at the risk of going off topic, can you point me in the direction of some good sources for traditional (pre-1700) natal predictive techniques? I'm mainly interested in primary directions, profections, solar returns and transits.

Thanks again
Robert.


Hi Robert,

The very best text I can recommend for predictive techniques, in fact, it is exactly what you're looking for, is Abu Ma'shar's manual which was translated by Ben Dykes as Persian Nativities III: http://bendykes.com/persians.php
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic! Thanks once more for all your help.
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