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Tom
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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Find the Quality Reply with quote

We haven't done anything like this in a long time. Below is the chart of Bob Dylan. I'm not a big fan myself, but there is something about him that is undeniable: Bob Dylan is famous. So the challenge is this: using any generally accepted traditional method or methods, where is the fame in his chart? I'm not asking for full documentation, such as a book, page number and quote (if you want to, that's OK), but a brief explanation of why you think yours is a good answer is expected. The usual prizes for great answers will be awarded.

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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for doing this tom. i enjoy these exercises and learn from others comments..

just a few comments off the top.. mercury is the angular planet highlighted in the chart.. i think of him as a writer mostly, musician, singer etc. etc. 2nd... mercury rules the planets in gemini - sun and venus, while mercury rules the equal 10th, with venus ruling the midheaven degree.. i note venus is at the midpoint of the mercury - sun combo, strengthening the importance of venus here.. meanwhile - the 10 degree aspect of mercury/venus encloses the ascendant axis.. as i mostly think of him as a writer who took up music as the vehicle for this, i think the importance of mercury and the connection to mercury/venus and writing artist things - as being his claim to fame here.. i suppose one could say poetry is his thing too - neptune on the north node - i suppose that ties into this too..

i don't know that would be enough for the 'fame' question that you ask, but as i mentioned at the beginning, i look forward to the traditionalists rationale for why he is famous here.. thanks.
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I would ask first before posting, but would you welcome comments from a Tajika point of view. Tajika is mostly western traditional astrology, but from a sidereal viewpoint. It does have a distinct eastern flavor though.
Thanks,
A.
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SteveGus



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 47
Location: Southern Indiana

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest thing in Dylan's chart appears to be Mercury. Conjunct the setting degree, Mercury is the only above ground visible planet in Dylan's chart. His way of relating to others is entirely through words and communications. Mercury is trine the Midheaven, ensuring that's what he's known for. Libra on the midheaven suggests an entertainer with strongly classicizing tastes.

As a setting planet Mercury is in opposition to the Ascendant. Fortuna in the first suggests an intensely private person, uninterested in his own celebrity. There's an interesting contrast between Taurus and Gemini here, again setting up a dynamic of a reluctant celebrity; the world hangs on his every word and he just wants to be left alone to chew his cud.
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Robert Bailey



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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have increasingly been using whole-sign houses for natal work. Examining this chart from a whole-sign perspective makes answering this question somewhat easier.



The 10th house shows fame, honour, dignity etc. Using whole-sign houses, Dylan's 10th house is Virgo. Mercury, Lord of the 10th, is in the angular 7th house, right near the cusp (powerful accidental dignity). Mercury is placed in Gemini, and is dignified by domicile and triplicity. He is not impeded by any aspects of the malefics. He is also in a trine aspect to the Midheaven (about 5 degrees distant).

I also note the head of the Dragon is in the 10th house.
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Fleur



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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Bob Dylan's success could be more about really big transits, representing the time he lived in, than anything intrinsic in his natal chart. And the transits, specifically to his natal Saturn, could be more about worldly success than musical genius, although his Saturn is 45 degrees to his Neptune and 22.5 degrees to his Venus, and his Venus' antiscion squares his Midheaven.

His natal Saturn is 20 degrees Taurus, antiscion 10 degrees Leo. So his IC at 17 degrees Aries made a Solar Arc to his Saturn at the ages of 23, in 1964, and 33 in 1974.

I could go into detail, but it would be way outside the scope of traditional astrology.


Last edited by Fleur on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thought I would ask first before posting, but would you welcome comments from a Tajika point of view. Tajika is mostly western traditional astrology, but from a sidereal viewpoint. It does have a distinct eastern flavor though.
Thanks,
A.


The Forum guidelines state that this forum is for the use of the tropical zodiac. There are reasons for this and we've gone over them pretty extensively. So I would prefer if you stick to traditional Western Astrology and the tropical zodiac. There is a forum for discussions pertaining to the sidereal zodiac. Thank you for asking.

Tom
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides what everyone said, I think the house system is important here. I use Alcabitius and personally, I think Placidus is the worst system ever.

In Alcabitius the MC trine Mercury is even "smaller" (five degrees) and Mars is in the 3rd house, pretty important for a musician/writer/composer. Mars in its own triplicity, without any afllictions of Saturn.

I always use the luminaries as natural significators of fame, including the Moon. This is a nocturnal chart, the Moon is the second strongest planet, right after Mercury. It is exalted, in its triplicity, disposed by Venus (suggesting fame through Venusian matters) in the very creative and musical 5th house, with no afflictions from the Malefics (I don’t consider conjunction to Saturn an affliction) and cojoined Jupiter. All this is more than enough for fame... If you add Mercury and what others have said... No surprise.

But I liked the exercise, because it is tricky. If you try to make a quick analysis, and goes the modern way MC - Libra - Venus things are much more complicated (even though Venus is trine MC, in Alcabitius, free from afliction and its own terms... only weirdest thing is the 6th house position).

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james_m



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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yair,

some folks like myself are inclined to see venus as more 7th then 6th house given the close proximity to the sign and by being in the same sign as the descendant.. yes, it has fallen below the descendant and setting, but in a nocturnal chart - as you correctly point out - those planets behind or occidental the sun, take on greater significance as i understand it.. that would also emphasize venus and mercury in this chart..
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Apology to Tom Reply with quote

The Forum guidelines state that this forum is for the use of the tropical zodiac. There are reasons for this and we've gone over them pretty extensively. So I would prefer if you stick to traditional Western Astrology and the tropical zodiac. There is a forum for discussions pertaining to the sidereal zodiac. Thank you for asking.

Tom
[/quote]

Sorry to have touched a nerve. I should have known better, I was warned that you were all pretty tightly wound here. I will mind my etiquette better in the future. Sorry again to have gotten you so angry.
A.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry to have touched a nerve. I should have known better, I was warned that you were all pretty tightly wound here. I will mind my etiquette better in the future. Sorry again to have gotten you so angry.
A.


What makes you think I was angry? You asked a perfectly legitimate question and I answered it and even thanked you for taking the trouble to ask about the guidelines. No anger was intended or implied.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Alcabitius the MC trine Mercury is even "smaller" (five degrees) and Mars is in the 3rd house, pretty important for a musician/writer/composer. Mars in its own triplicity, without any afllictions of Saturn.


How so? Alcabitius and all other house systems (except the Morinus system which no one, including Morinus, ever uses) gives the same MC, 17 Libra 50. The angles in all house systems are the same. However, as you say, Mars is definitely in the 3rd in Alcabitius.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
only weirdest thing is the 6th house position).


I'm the administrator on a Face Book page devoted to Morinus and I posted the same chart and asked the same question over there. The difference is that over there we're limiting the answers to Morinus' methods. As of late last night (Eastern US time) no one had picked up on the 6th house issue. Devotees of Morinus would be expected to either ask about or include the 6th house placement because he would have said, "Venus does one thing in one house and another thing in another." In other words, her house placement cannot be ignored using his system.

I didn't have an answer when I posted the chart there or here and kind of hoped someone would point one out. In the meanwhile I read a little about Dylan's life. I don't know much about him. Given my age it might be a little bit surprising that I was never really a fan of his or his music. One of the reasons that I liked my own question (heh, sorry) is that it doesn't matter if we like, dislike, or are neutral about Dylan's abilities, the fact is that he is famous and that's what we're looking for. But how do we get fame with the lady of the MC in the 6th with decent essential dignity, but less than decent accidental dignity?

I now think I have an answer to the 6th house question, but some might consider it a bit of a stretch. We'll see when I post it. But for now, does anyone else have any ideas about the 6th house placement of the ruler of the MC?
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Fleur



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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would immediately look for fame from the Moons Nodes aspecting (no trines, orbs less than two degrees) the chart angles. This is just my observation, and there may be other indications I haven't noticed. Moons Nodes to chart angles seems to be the classic hallmark of fame. What is curious in Bob Dylan's chart is that his converse Solar Arc Midheaven axis is conjunct his Moons Nodes, at about the age of 19, in 1960 when he met Woody Guthrie.

Just an observation. I have been thinking about this chart a bit and am curious about your question too. I don't know if Solar Arcs or the Moons Nodes are part of traditional astrology, but am guessing they have a chance of being. I will resist the temptation to mention outer planets.

Whereas the Moons Nodes aspecting the chart angles shows fame, aspects and transit to Saturn represents worldly and financial success.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just an observation. I have been thinking about this chart a bit and am curious about your question too. I don't know if Solar Arcs or the Moons Nodes are part of traditional astrology, but am guessing they have a chance of being. I will resist the temptation to mention outer planets.


Outer planets are OK but many here would object, in principle, to using them as sign rulers. Many contemporary traditional astrologers use them, albeit not to the extent that moderns use them. Traditionalists (some of them) tend to use the outers in the same way they might use fixed stars.

Solar arcs are modern and converse solar arcs might be considered a head scratcher. But I know one traditionalist who uses them to validate what he sees with primary directions. No less an authority than Placidus himself used secondary progressions that way.

I once attended a lecture whose topic was the birth chart of the Roman emperor Nero and he was demonstrating how ancient Roman astrologers would have looked at it. He put the chart up (circular, too) sans Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. The audience, 99% modern astrologers, stared at it as though it came from outer space. They were completely lost. We don't want to get to that level of expectation from the outers.
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