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Another Love Horary

 
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Another Love Horary Reply with quote

Hey everyone! Popping in to get some insight. I know there's a lot of brow furrowing over love/relationships​ horaries but I'm hoping someone will still be willing to help out/give some insight.

I've been nursing a wound from a break up from over 7 months ago. It's been hard getting my bearings straight and really moving on. We tried to be friends but that fell apart quickly and haven't spoken in about half that time, and while I was feeling pretty okay and confident for a while, I'm finding myself feeling really miserable and grieving the loss of the relationship again. I'm admittedly feeling silly even doing casting a chart about this but seeing as it seems to at least heavily reflect how I'm feeling, maybe there'll be a bit of a silver lining in this that I'm missing (even if the chart shows a No to the answer).

At any rate, I did a chart for the cursed question - Will we fix our relationship? Again, I know love horaries are kind of frowned upon and I'm feeling kind of lame over doing this but distractions help sometimes (and also maybe I can learn a bit more at the very least).



I'm Mercury (And Venus and Moon), he's Jupiter (And Sun). I checked if the chart was radical and the ruler of the hour is Mercury so I'd see that as yes.

I'm Mercury retrograde in my 8th house. Seems appropriate. I'm suddenly feeling miserable and worried over this break up again rather than fully moving on. It's a double whammy of anxiousness and worry since Mercury is placed in the 8th house Ruler sign too. I receive Sun via Exaltation and Triplicity but Mercury in Venus' sign of debility shows ultimately that I'm just feeling crummy all around about this.

Venus just entered Aries (Literally) in the 7th house which yeah, I went from feeling pretty good and okay about myself (Venus exalted in Pisces) to now just feel like I don't have much control over love and relationships at all (Venus in detriment in Aries). I was hoping to have moved on from this more than I have but am feeling a lot like I'm back at square one with processing this.

Moon is in Gemini so I'm trying to focus strictly on myself. Feeling really "split" over how I should be feeling/dealing with this over all. Gemini is Jupiter's sign of detriment so emotionally I'm still feeling hurt over how the break up went about and upset that it went went the way it did, especially after being together for years. Moon in ninth house also shows me wanting to be able to really move on, trying to set my sites emotionally on the bigger picture.

He's Jupiter retrograde in Libra. He's placed in my second house (which I don't know how to read that) but in his 8th house. So maybe he's also doing his share of worrying and hurting over this break up now too.

Sun is in Taurus in the ninth house (his third house). This shows still some emotional affinity towards me still as a person. Sun here could also be that maybe he's considering actually reaching out?

At any rate, the verdict is something I'm not sure of. We're both retrograde which means we're both weakened in this situation, especially with our respective eighth house placements. Mercury and Jupiter are also applying to an opposition which certainly shows our distance between each other and moving towards being permanent. But... Mercury will be going retrograde soon which will keep the opposition from being perfected. On top of that, Moon is applying to a trine to Jupiter which will be the next aspect perfected. After a Trine, it applies a sextile to Mercury.

So I guess... How should moon be read here? This seems promising but also I can't tell if it's the fact that I'm really caught up in my emotions right now that's making me see that.

Any insight would be helpful. Thank you!
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi UpandAbove,

Here are some comments:

UpandAbove wrote:
I know there's a lot of brow furrowing over love/relationships​ horaries


Let their brows furrow. If they have a problem with love, it is a pity, but it is their problem. It is they who are out of line to express their dissatisfaction here.

UpandAbove wrote:
I'm admittedly feeling silly even doing casting a chart about this but seeing as it seems to at least heavily reflect how I'm feeling, maybe there'll be a bit of a silver lining in this that I'm missing (even if the chart shows a No to the answer).


Don't feel silly. Horary can give you mental clarity. Seeing things as they are helps us heal emotionally and move on. Horary is a healing tool.

You have done an excellent reading of your own chart. I will add some extra comments.

Notice that the Moon is separating from a conjunction with Mars, the natural ruler of separation and hurt. And Mercury and Venus are in Mars' sign. The separation leans heavily on you.

UpandAbove wrote:
He's Jupiter retrograde in Libra. He's placed in my second house (which I don't know how to read that) but in his 8th house.


You don't need to read all house placements. Also, the Moon is house 10, not 9. It is only one degree from the 10th cusp.

Jupiter is on the 7th cusp by antiscion and Neptune is on the 7th cusp. This shows that there is something about him that is unseen; something you are not aware of.

UpandAbove wrote:
Sun is in Taurus in the ninth house (his third house). This shows still some emotional affinity towards me still as a person.


Because it is in Taurus, yes. House 9 or 3 do not matter unless those houses have something to do with the question. Physical affinity as well.

UpandAbove wrote:
Sun here could also be that maybe he's considering actually reaching out?


Not necessarily. Considering reaching out would be shown by a combination or favorable receptions, applying aspect and acidental strength. Neither Jupiter nor the Sun have the accidental strength to show initiative. But the Moon, being angular, does.

So, who is considering reaching out is you. But the reception is not favorable. See below. The Moon is on the star Aldebaran, so you're considering a new phase or something new.

UpandAbove wrote:
Mercury and Jupiter are also applying to an opposition which certainly shows our distance between each other and moving towards being permanent.


That is an important testimony. And you are correct in your assessment. Oppositions in questions like this don't bring favorable results. If the parties persist there will be regret and/or separate soon afterwards. You are interested in "opposite" or "incompatible" things. Basically, opposition placements mean that there is no solid basis for conciliation.

UpandAbove wrote:
But... Mercury will be going retrograde soon which will keep the opposition from being perfected.


Mercury will turn direct. It is already retrograde. That means they will not meet. In fact it shows Mercury changing its mind about meeting Jupiter. Mercury is on Uranus, which also shows separation.

UpandAbove wrote:
On top of that, Moon is applying to a trine to Jupiter which will be the next aspect perfected. After a Trine, it applies a sextile to Mercury.


You may disregard the sextile to Mercury. Stick to the next aspect only to keep it simple and clear.

The Moon is in Jupiter's detriment. Not favorable. You may find that the Moon has no love left for Jupiter and only hurt. This is a contact with the risk of unpleasant fruits.

The receptions show mutual emotional and physical affinity. But emotionally you are hurt and that will no help. If you approach him before you heal it may hurt him and you further. Plus there is something you don't know about him so I suggest you be cautious if you decide to proceed, and make sure any contact is honest and open.
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

felipeastrologo wrote:
Hi UpandAbove,


Let their brows furrow. If they have a problem with love, it is a pity, but it is their problem. It is they who are out of line to express their dissatisfaction here.
Don't feel silly. Horary can give you mental clarity. Seeing things as they are helps us heal emotionally and move on. Horary is a healing tool.

You have done an excellent reading of your own chart. I will add some extra comments.


Hi Felipe! Thank you for taking the time to reply and also say this. It's really appreciated Smile


Quote:

Notice that the Moon is separating from a conjunction with Mars, the natural ruler of separation and hurt. And Mercury and Venus are in Mars' sign. The separation leans heavily on you.


Yes, accurate. It's just been weighing very heavily on me the last couple of days especially.
Quote:

You don't need to read all house placements. Also, the Moon is house 10, not 9. It is only one degree from the 10th cusp.

Jupiter is on the 7th cusp by antiscion and Neptune is on the 7th cusp. This shows that there is something about him that is unseen; something you are not aware of.


Interestingly, we have a mutual friend who was in touch with him a while ago. She was talking about how he wanted to reach out and make amends but was having anxiety over it for some reason. I don't really know what it could be about, honestly. I'd imagine if it were to do with someone else, my friend would have flat out said but it seemed like something else that could genuinely be hidden and I'm not sure what to make of that still.

Quote:
Because it is in Taurus, yes. House 9 or 3 do not matter unless those houses have something to do with the question. Physical affinity as well.


Thank you! I think it's natural for me to do that because I'm mostly versed in reading natals, so it's a habit to take house placement into consideration for me.

Quote:
Not necessarily. Considering reaching out would be shown by a combination or favorable receptions, applying aspect and acidental strength. Neither Jupiter nor the Sun have the accidental strength to show initiative. But the Moon, being angular, does.

So, who is considering reaching out is you. But the reception is not favorable. See below. The Moon is on the star Aldebaran, so you're considering a new phase or something new.


Yes, another thing that's accurate. I actually had a dream last night of my caving and trying to contact him, but after waking up I realized it would resolve nothing. Part of why we stopped talking was because he didn't really feel comfortable communicating anymore so I gave him space. If I reach out at this point it's just trying to force something and I'd rather not try and talk to someone who doesn't actively want to try and speak to me and fix things.

Quote:
That is an important testimony. And you are correct in your assessment. Oppositions in questions like this don't bring favorable results. If the parties persist there will be regret and/or separate soon afterwards. You are interested in "opposite" or "incompatible" things. Basically, opposition placements mean that there is no solid basis for conciliation.


Thank you! I've been trying to understand how to read oppositions. It seems to be the general consensus that even if there's mutual reception, that it shows unfavorable outcomes. So I wasn't sure if moving back from opposition would show a consideration of something different.

Quote:

Mercury will turn direct. It is already retrograde. That means they will not meet. In fact it shows Mercury changing its mind about meeting Jupiter. Mercury is on Uranus, which also shows separation.


Ah! I didn't consider looking at mercury turning direct in that away. Again because of the opposition. Everything I've been coming across seems to point to oppositions just being a basic no but that's definitely another way to look at it.

Quote:


You may disregard the sextile to Mercury. Stick to the next aspect only to keep it simple and clear.

The Moon is in Jupiter's detriment. Not favorable. You may find that the Moon has no love left for Jupiter and only hurt. This is a contact with the risk of unpleasant fruits.

The receptions show mutual emotional and physical affinity. But emotionally you are hurt and that will no help. If you approach him before you heal it may hurt him and you further. Plus there is something you don't know about him so I suggest you be cautious if you decide to proceed, and make sure any contact is honest and open.


I was curious about the moon as it seemed to offer a translation of light here. It also rules my 11th house of friends which, admittedly at this point, it would be nice if we could mend our connection to at least be friends.

But yes, you're right. I'm not really in a position to think about being involved with someone, even if it was him (I guess to some degree this was a "what if one day" kind of thing). All I really want is open and clear communication. The way the break up happened was basically rooted in unclear and evasive communication so I have no want or interest in going through that again. Even to be friends, things would need to be honest and open, so what's the point in the connection if it can't even do that?

Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback and insight! It's really appreciated! I'm not sure if it's okay to post a second chart in the thread if it's related to the question. I'm going to go on a limb and say it's probably not and make a new thread. But I casted a chart on what's hidden/causing him anxiety over reaching out because I'm at a loss. The last time we spoke I basically gave him an open invitation to feel okay to lay down any grievances he personally felt with me so I don't know what could it could be if it's even something that can be hidden from other people.

EDIT: I made a new thread for what may be hidden over here: What's Hidden
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote the following as an answer to your WHAT IS HIDDEN horary, before you deleted it. You can copy it and read at your leisure. If you want me to delete it later just ask me and I will delete it.

The question is about the 7th house so any planet in the 7th house is a testimony about the 7th house. Leave the astrologer out of the picture. Every chart should be read with caution. If Saturn reminds you of that, fine; but that's about it.

I was planning to go back an comment on the first chart that Saturn was likely connceted to Jupiter due to their positive mutual reception. And here it is again.

So, Saturn is blatantly the answer. And again we have not one, but two testimonies of something hidden. One is the same Jupiter on Neptune by antiscion; the other is SAturn on the fixed star Acumen. Basically Saturn is hidden.

The Moon is in house 1, not 12. Any planet less that 5 degrees of a cusp is in the next house, if it's in the same sign as the cusp. This means you are totally focussed on yourself. Neither good nor bad.

Everything is basically the same in this chart so there's nothing new to read about you and him. Let's focus on Saturn.

UpandAbove wrote:
which I guess if Saturn in the seventh means I'll have difficulty discerning this, it seems accurate already).


The context, the question and the testimonies I mentioned above determine that you cannot see what is going on clearly, not Saturn in the 7th. Do not get hung up on that. It is not correct. This is a house 7 matter.

Before I get into a possible interpretation of Saturn and what "is hidden", a few thoughts:

Unless significators have a clear meaning based on the context it is not possible to get a sharp 100% accurate answer of what a planet can mean. What we do is look at house rulerships and then natural rulerships, create a narrative and see if it could fit the situation. And then go an live life to see it corroborates the narrative.

So, here's my reasoning and the picture I get:

Saturn rules house 9 and his house 3. Could he be hiding his neighbor? Brother? Cousin? A church or school? No sense there. Forget that house.

House 2, his money? You would know if money had anything to do with the breakup.

Saturn rules old things and black things, etc. Can you find any meaning inthose things? Maybe. It takes some detective work.

Here is a plausible story this may be hinting at:

The Moon rules your second house of "self esteem". "Saturn" rules HIS self-esteem.

Moon and Saturn are in opposition. Saturn and Mercury are in negative mutual reception, which is an "opposition" of sorts and can be translated as: Mercury upset Saturn and Saturn dislikes Mercury. Jupiter and Saturn are in positive mutual reception, meaning that Saturn "rules" Jupiter by exaltation. Jupiter gives a lot of importance to Saturn. Even if it not were in his house. But being there rubs it in big time.

So, we have a situation where self-esteems were hit hard, possibly much worse for him than for you and he is afraid of exposing it, or even admitting it, thus: hidden. This is extremely common, specially for men, who naturally have difficulties accepting, let alone talking about emotions.

The fact that Jupiter is ruled by Venus indicated that such "hurt" on his side may connceted to Venus, you as a woman and all or part of that implies. Jupiter is in house 5, the house of sex.

Did you take the initiative to break up? If so, that may corroborates the narrative. "A woman telling she does not want me!" That is a delicate matter, so please take this comment with a pich of salt.

Pluto, is on his 2nd cusp, which is another clear testimony for upset self-esteem.

So, we may not be talking about a "secret" per se, but more like a bruised ego which cannot "come out" and heal.

That's my story. It could be right or it could be wrong, or somewhere in between. There's no way to tell. But it does align with what you told us, and this type of scenario is very common.
_________________
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Second chart Reply with quote

Sorry about that! It turns out I should keep both charts in the same thread since they're related to each other. Here is what was posted in the original thread:

To make things easier I just decided to make a new thread (and to also make discussions of the chart more clear and easy to follow). This is a continuation from my previous thread: Another Love Horary. To give some context, it was deduced from the chart that something may be hidden which has been confirmed IRL via a good mutual friend of both of ours. Said friend didn't seem to know what the hidden thing could be (the general consensus is that its not another person as they're still both in touch so hiding a potential new love would be difficult unless he's been incredibly secretive about it bc social media and everything), so to get some clarity since it's also been confirmed via the chart, I asked the other dreaded question "What's being hidden from me that is making X anxious?"

Note: sorry that this one seems extra rambly. Trying to discern something hidden from me doesn't seem as clear cut because... Well... It's hidden from me Lala Happy

As with the last chart, this one is radical. Ruler of the hour is Mars which is posted in the mercury ruled sign of Gemini.



The first thing to note is that Saturn is in the seventh house. I've been trying to read up more on this because I know this can be seen as a sign that the chart can't be read but I keep seeing that this is only true if you're using an outside Astrologer (as in not reading and casting the chart myself). I'll still take this as a sign to proceed reading the chart with caution. Or that perhaps even if the hour ruler shows it being radical, then it still just may be inconclusive at this time.

Just like with the last chart (which kind of makes me think this one may still be legit) - I'm Mercury, he is Jupiter.

The Gemini ascendant also seems appropriate for me right bow. I'm feeling a bit better and at this point, I'm kind of having fun with this. I'm painfully mercurial, so I'm having fun picking apart the details and trying to piece them together like a detective. I know that's not pertinent to the chart itself but it made me smile a bit haha

We're both still retrograde (it's only been a day so of course), but this time we're placed in each other's respective fifth houses. We receive each other via Triplicity so I'd simply read this as we clearly don't hate each other. Us both being retrograde may be a sign that we're both considering making amends, though mercury will be turning direct soon which likely means I'll get out of the gross bummed out feelings I'm experiencing over this and maybe really emotionally move on.

I'm also moon and Venus. Moon in my 12th house shows my wanting to figure out what's hidden. Venus in the 11th (technically it's placed in the 10th but it's really close to the cusp so I'll assume it's in there) shows me feeling heavily weakened by my romantic feelings for him since it's in its sign of detriment (Venus also rules my 5H).

He is also Sun which is placed in the Venus ruled Taurus in my 11H of friendship (His 5H of romance) so I do want to see him as a friend but there's no aspect between the Sun and any of my significators showing him not actively present in that role.

So I guess here's where I'm getting confused and feeling like I'm kinda going around in a circle trying to discern this(which I guess if Saturn in the seventh means I'll have difficulty discerning this, it seems accurate already).

The 12H is the house of secrets which is ruled by Venus. Venus placed in my 11H of friendship, hopes and dreams. Venus also rules my 5H of love, sex and joy, and his 11H of friendship, hopes and dreams. Jupiter in the Venus ruled sign seems to confirm that there is something secretive going on as well. His 12H is ruled by Mars (And Pluto Rx) which shows something hidden since Mars is in my 12H, and Pluto RX is posted in my 8H so, yes, I'm sweating it a little bit. Pluto is in the Saturn ruled Capricorn, which is placed in his 1H so yeah, there's a secret going - success, secret confirmed.

The only problem is that said significator is in it's sign of detriment. So perhaps the secret is that he's scared of everything not working out between us. But... We've broken up already. It's already in the light that part of why this fell apart is because of self-sabotage and him being worried of getting in his own way of success in the relationship (yes. I know this is circular logic. It boggled my mind as well), so I don't see this as a secret either. It's already come to light, it's already been spoken and said so that doesn't seem right.

Okay, so... I move onto the 12H itself. Mars and Moon are posted in there. Mars rules my 11H (his 5H), which at first I figured okay, maybe he is involved with someone else but Mars is in the Mercury ruled sign of Gemini. I know I could turn the chart to see my 1H as his 7H to conclude this but that seems overly complicated. I think I'd also be more inclined to see that if Mercury were placed in there, not Mars. So... That doesn't seem right either. Perhaps Mars in Gemini in here is that he's "Split" on what to do. That he's torn between trying to rekindle something (his 5H) or be friends (my 11H) which... Yes I could see this as being a secret. I don't know what his intention are and haven't for over a year. Our relationship of several years went from defined clearly on a course to suddenly being hazy with confusion and uncertainty. I tried to be the stronger one but ultimately, there's only so much you can do to reassure someone that they're enough and that things will be okay before it becomes clear this is something they need to sort out themselves. What he wants and where he wants things to go has been something I havent had a good understanding of and has been something he stopped being able to answer at a certain point past "just wanting things to work out".

Moon also rules his 8H of fears and anxiety. It's also posited in Gemini. So maybe this is that he simply doesn't know where his feelings with me like in general. Which, again, can totally see as being legit but not really sure it's a secret either.

This is going down the extra route but I calculated the part of knowledge/truth. It's placed at Leo 2241', making it trining Mercury and Sextiling the moon. Everything seems to be pointing to Mercury which... Leaves me at more of a loss.

At any rate, Moon will be Sextiling Mercury next. Perhaps this means that whatever's hidden will come to light soon regardless. But for now, the chart just seems (to me) to confirm that something is hidden. As to what? I feel a bit like a gerbil on a wheel trying to figure out![/img]
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

felipeastrologo wrote:
I wrote the following as an answer to your WHAT IS HIDDEN horary, before you deleted it. You can copy it and read at your leisure. If you want me to delete it later just ask me and I will delete it.


It's no worries! This was an error on my end and I've re-posted the chart again over here in another post. Thank you again for taking the time to reply and help me out with this. It honestly means a lot and also is helping me learn a great deal as well.

Quote:
The question is about the 7th house so any planet in the 7th house is a testimony about the 7th house. Leave the astrologer out of the picture. Every chart should be read with caution. If Saturn reminds you of that, fine; but that's about it.


Thank you! I know that Saturn in First is usually a not good sign/should really be read with extreme sensitivity so I wasn't sure if that would be the situation for seventh house since I'm still technically the astrologer but I'll toss that out the window and simply not worry about it in the future.

Also I wasn't sure about using 7H. I know hidden things is usually associated with the 12H since it's what the Querent doesn't see I can also see the 7H since it is directly related to him.

Quote:

I was planning to go back an comment on the first chart that Saturn was likely connceted to Jupiter due to their positive mutual reception. And here it is again.

So, Saturn is blatantly the answer. And again we have not one, but two testimonies of something hidden. One is the same Jupiter on Neptune by antiscion; the other is SAturn on the fixed star Acumen. Basically Saturn is hidden.


I did notice that too, though I disregarded it since it didn't seem related to the question in any way. I know the 4H is seen as the end of matters for some astrologers but I've yet to really read a chart or cast one where it felt relevant.

Also, wow. I should really look more into fixed stars. I also still don't quite understand how antiscions work or what their purposes are, but I'll definitely look more into that as well!

Quote:
The Moon is in house 1, not 12. Any planet less that 5 degrees of a cusp is in the next house, if it's in the same sign as the cusp. This means you are totally focussed on yourself. Neither good nor bad.


That was poor math on my part! Admittedly I casted this while I was still groggy so my eyes read the moon at 20 not 21. But yes, still focused on myself and my own emotional well being.

Quote:


The context, the question and the testimonies I mentioned above determine that you cannot see what is going on clearly, not Saturn in the 7th. Do not get hung up on that. It is not correct. This is a house 7 matter.


Ahah! Well, considering how I felt like I was spinning around trying to dissect the chart, this was definitely an accurate testimony and my ability to read it clearly.

Quote:
Before I get into a possible interpretation of Saturn and what "is hidden", a few thoughts:

Unless significators have a clear meaning based on the context it is not possible to get a sharp 100% accurate answer of what a planet can mean. What we do is look at house rulerships and then natural rulerships, create a narrative and see if it could fit the situation. And then go an live life to see it corroborates the narrative.


Yes, usually for the charts of other people, I'm pretty good at figuring out what the core narrative is. But with this since, well as previously stated, I'm not able to see things clearly, I definitely had a hard time figuring out how to orient myself to find the narrative of this.

Quote:
So, here's my reasoning and the picture I get:

Saturn rules house 9 and his house 3. Could he be hiding his neighbor? Brother? Cousin? A church or school? No sense there. Forget that house.

House 2, his money? You would know if money had anything to do with the breakup.


No, money had nothing to do with it. And as far as I know, he's not trying to keep anyone in hiding either haha!

Quote:
Saturn rules old things and black things, etc. Can you find any meaning inthose things? Maybe. It takes some detective work.


At this time, no. Though reading the rest of your reply, I'm wondering if this just doesn't outright represent an old would he has that has also yet to be addressed by him (black being kept in the darkness).

Quote:
Here is a plausible story this may be hinting at:

The Moon rules your second house of "self esteem". "Saturn" rules HIS self-esteem.

Moon and Saturn are in opposition. Saturn and Mercury are in negative mutual reception, which is an "opposition" of sorts and can be translated as: Mercury upset Saturn and Saturn dislikes Mercury. Jupiter and Saturn are in positive mutual reception, meaning that Saturn "rules" Jupiter by exaltation. Jupiter gives a lot of importance to Saturn. Even if it not were in his house. But being there rubs it in big time.

So, we have a situation where self-esteems were hit hard, possibly much worse for him than for you and he is afraid of exposing it, or even admitting it, thus: hidden. This is extremely common, specially for men, who naturally have difficulties accepting, let alone talking about emotions.

The fact that Jupiter is ruled by Venus indicated that such "hurt" on his side may connceted to Venus, you as a woman and all or part of that implies. Jupiter is in house 5, the house of sex.

Did you take the initiative to break up? If so, that may corroborates the narrative. "A woman telling she does not want me!" That is a delicate matter, so please take this comment with a pich of salt.



Honestly, this felt like a light bulb moment. The entire process of breaking up was frustrating and painful for me. We were on a break because he ended up getting two DUIs after he had apparently started drinking heavily and hiding it from me (we were in a long distance relationship for a while because he had to relocate to help his family for a bit as his dad fell ill. We were in the process of saving up to move in together).

I got very vocal over my frustrations with it because during the time we had known each other, it's a cycle that I've seen him go through. The DUI situation was entirely new, however, which made me realize that he really needed to start taking this problem seriously. He has a huge problem with self-sabotage. Whenever he feels like he's at a crossroads and there's an option that could turn out well but will involve heavy work, he tends to buckle down and go down the familiar route, even if he knows it won't end well because, well, it's familiar and he knows what the outcome will 100% be. The first DUI seemed to cause him to turn around immediately. He started seeing a counselor and really putting in work to getting himself back together. A few months later he called me and sounded off and I had a feeling that he had started drinking again. I asked him and he said he was sick and was just loopy from cough medicine (which... I still can't believe he thought I'd buy this. I know him on couch medicine and he's virtually the same. I'm the one who usually sounds drunk off their mind when taking any medication). A month or so later I got a phone call from him in jail, telling me he had gotten a second one.

I'll admit I was pretty livid. When he got home it all came out that he had stopped going to his counselor (which I should have suspected sooner since at some point he stopped telling me anything that was covered in each session and simply said they were going well), that he started by just having A Beer at dinner and the next thing he knew this was happening. I worked with him to come up with a good plan of getting himself on track again. It lasted two weeks before he started going down hill again so we agreed to go on a break. He was getting heavily dependent on our moving in together to fix this problem for him. He was supposed to start seeing his counselor again, I was supposed to work on getting my work life in order and then in a couple of months we were supposed to touch base again. He avoided me for nearly a month before I got frustrated and couldn't handle the heart break anymore of having someone either leave me waiting an entire day to hear from him before saying oh he was busy and forgot or simply kept rescheduling first thing in the morning. It was heart breaking and I couldn't believe it was happening. We had known each other for over a decade and had been together for almost half that time but I was being treated like I was nothing but a three week fling.

So yes, it's a little baffling right now to hear this but also it makes sense and I guess it's even more upsetting to hear. Looking back now it just feels like the break up was nothing but a reflection of the self-sabotaging cycle. He rejected me and pushed me away to give me a reason to reject him outright first. All this did was confirm his idea that I didn't want him, and I don't think he even realizes how he handled it outright made me feel that way.

This was part of why i had told him that it was important for us to try and be friends ironically. We needed to re-get to know each other to have better confidence in us and ourselves in relationship to one another but at the end, he even rejected that.

As it stands, I have no real way of confirming this, but I wouldn't be surprised. The idea of this makes this all the more maddening to think about. I want to be his friend and support him and be there for him. I've always been painfully open to listening and talking out problems. So it just hurts that when we needed to have the most clear talk possible, it ended up falling victim to this cycle, too.

Quote:

Pluto, is on his 2nd cusp, which is another clear testimony for upset self-esteem.

So, we may not be talking about a "secret" per se, but more like a bruised ego which cannot "come out" and heal.

That's my story. It could be right or it could be wrong, or somewhere in between. There's no way to tell. But it does align with what you told us, and this type of scenario is very common.


Thanks again for your insight and also sorry for the intense rambling. I guess your deduction managed to hit something in me and it's the first time in months that I've dug all of that up again because it just hurts a lot to think about and consider that felt so promising and hopeful ended up falling apart because... Of... Well. Ego.

I think I've got some chewing on things to do. Hilariously today is his birthday. Maybe I'll send him a quick happy birthday email but... I'll wait until I actually sort through what I'm currently feeling first.

Thank you! Honestly and sincerely, you've been a lot of help.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UpandAbove wrote:
Also I wasn't sure about using 7H. I know hidden things is usually associated with the 12H since it's what the Querent doesn't see I can also see the 7H since it is directly related to him.


The question is about "hidden things" about him, not just "hidden things". He is the centerpiece of the chart. Also, it may well be hidden from him as well. One of the problems with dealing with ego is that we can fail to see it and thus it makes all the more difficult to work with it.

UpandAbove wrote:
I know the 4H is seen as the end of matters for some astrologers but I've yet to really read a chart or cast one where it felt relevant.


Well said. If there is an end to the matter in the context, yes. Like court cases or certain specific questions on surgery or treatment. In most horaries it has no relevance. In this one it certainly does not. People often use the end of the matter when they cannot understand the main plot and the interaction among the main players and thus resort to "the end of the matter" to fish for some kind of "good or bad" answer.

UpandAbove wrote:
I should really look more into fixed stars. I also still don't quite understand how antiscions work or what their purposes are, but I'll definitely look more into that as well!


We cannot do horary properly without anticion. God knows why so many astrologers ignore it. Major testimonies are given by antiscial placements.

We can do horary without fixed stars or the outer planets without major losses. But with them the pictures are much sharper and complete and they often reinforce the innner planet testimonies.

UpandAbove wrote:
Thanks again for your insight and also sorry for the intense rambling. I guess your deduction managed to hit something in me and it's the first time in months that I've dug all of that up again because it just hurts a lot to think about and consider that felt so promising and hopeful ended up falling apart because... Of... Well. Ego.


You're welcome. That's what emotional healing is about.

All the best,
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Location: Canada

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi UpandAbove:

Sorry to hear of your difficulties.

I have looked at the first chart in as much detail as I have time for and just given the second chart a cursory glance and my suggestion is that what is hidden has something to do with your money or your possessions. Please keep in mind though that I'm relatively new to horary.

Chart 1:

Sun, ruler of 12 (house of hidden things), is in 9, and at 8 degrees. This puts it in partile opposition with the cusp of 3, communication and a partile quincunx with 2, house of your resources.

Traditional astrologers don't use inconjuncts (quincunx, semi-sextile) but I pay attention to them if they are in partile aspect to something, using them as a descriptor, and attributing an on/off kind of energy to them, which is a modern interpretation.

Jupiter is in 2, slightly dignified but retrograde and moving back toward the cusp, moving to the strongest part of the house, meaning that the symbolism of 2 will be emphasized again.

You are in opposition to him in the 8th and I don't think that you should ignore the fact that that is where your significators are - they are descriptive of something important.

Both Jupiter and Sun are disposed by Venus who has moved from exaltation (luxury/comfort, etc.) to being in detriment. Venus is a natural significator of money and luxury possessions.

Chart 2:

Your second house is again emphasized, being ruled by the Moon which itself is emphasized by being on the ascendant.

Jupiter this time is in 5, in partile aspect to the 12th house and your second house.

The 12th house and the 5th house are ruled by detrimented Venus.



I'm running out of time on the computer but I think this all adds up to a money/possessions emphasis and you might want to ask him if he has a gambling addiction as the start to any conversation.

I'll write more if I have time tomorrow.

moonbright
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonbright wrote:
Hi UpandAbove:

Sorry to hear of your difficulties.

I have looked at the first chart in as much detail as I have time for and just given the second chart a cursory glance and my suggestion is that what is hidden has something to do with your money or your possessions. Please keep in mind though that I'm relatively new to horary.

Chart 1:

Sun, ruler of 12 (house of hidden things), is in 9, and at 8 degrees. This puts it in partile opposition with the cusp of 3, communication and a partile quincunx with 2, house of your resources.

Traditional astrologers don't use inconjuncts (quincunx, semi-sextile) but I pay attention to them if they are in partile aspect to something, using them as a descriptor, and attributing an on/off kind of energy to them, which is a modern interpretation.

Jupiter is in 2, slightly dignified but retrograde and moving back toward the cusp, moving to the strongest part of the house, meaning that the symbolism of 2 will be emphasized again.

You are in opposition to him in the 8th and I don't think that you should ignore the fact that that is where your significators are - they are descriptive of something important.

Both Jupiter and Sun are disposed by Venus who has moved from exaltation (luxury/comfort, etc.) to being in detriment. Venus is a natural significator of money and luxury possessions.

Chart 2:

Your second house is again emphasized, being ruled by the Moon which itself is emphasized by being on the ascendant.

Jupiter this time is in 5, in partile aspect to the 12th house and your second house.

The 12th house and the 5th house are ruled by detrimented Venus.



I'm running out of time on the computer but I think this all adds up to a money/possessions emphasis and you might want to ask him if he has a gambling addiction as the start to any conversation.

I'll write more if I have time tomorrow.

moonbright


Hi moonbright!! Thanks for your feedback! As far as I know, he's never really taken part in gambling of any kind. He's bought scratch tickets before but, well, so have I and everyone else I know but it's never been a reoccurrence. I've known him long enough that if something like that were to be going on, it'd be hard to keep hidden, especially considering how much time we used to spend together. I'll keep it in mind, though. Thank you again!
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To give an update - Felipe turned out to be right about me being the one to act. I actually forgot about the chart until now (the weekend ended being incredibly emotionally tumultuous) and ended up sending him a rather long, detailed email about how I was feeling about everything (moon = emotions, in gemini = communication, moon being the fastest method = email). It talked in length about my anxieties and hurts over the break up (8H mercury w Uranus, opp. Jupiter), talking about my trying to move on (Merc rx) and trying to just emotionally focus on myself (moon in Merc ruled sign).

I left the door open for him to come back and talk if he ever felt open to it again, trying to make it clear I didn't hate him (significators on Triplicity to each other) and that I did want to try and fix things to at least be friends one day (11H moon applying to Jupiter).

I just took a second glance at the first chart and realized Venus is also his 8H ruler, placed in his house. Kind of solidifying that whatever his fear is, it's pretty intensely rooted in him. Interestingly, his 8H ruler just moved out of his ruled sign and into my 8H sign, so maybe this is also a matter of him just being too scared to actually face the pain and worry he caused me (which wouldn't be out of question. I don't think anyone likes facing someone they've hurt).

Still not sure​ how timing works though. Moon was five degrees from perfecting it's aspect to Jupiter, but I emailed two days later. The only relevant timing aspect I can see is the degree difference from Moon before it crosses over the MC, which roughly it took me a day and a half to decide to do it, though admittedly several hours before I went through it.

I guess the charts do tend to say everything ultimately. Whether this points to the connection ever being repaired is still something I can't tell if it's there or not.

Maybe the translation of light with Moon between Jupiter and Mercury could prove to be true? But I'm not sure. I still don't quite get how that works, even if in here to provides a bridge over a gap and proves to be hopeful.

Edit to add: I just realized the 9H (his 3H) also gave the answer away. Having both moon (at least visually) and Mars (my 3H ruler) in there showed that is likely be the one initiating communication and the steps to reconciliation.

Mars (my 8H ruler) separating from Venus (his 8H ruler) = trying to understand his fears but acknowledging that unless they're stated (his 3H ruler), there's no way for me to be able to.

Moon and Mars square Neptune = anxieties and worries over his illusiveness, his problems with addiction, but the square shows my wanting to be involved in helping, but not in the same way as before.

Moon trining Jupiter but Squaring Neptune = my wanting to reconnect and rebuild/heal our connection (Jupiter) but it would require us working to create definition instead of keeping things so muted, needing to proactively deal with the languid aspects of our bond.

I know outer planets are usually to be disregarded but they certainly seem to add to the story here.
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello! Back again! I casted this chart a week ago but gave myself some space before sitting and looking at it. It was a chart to see if I'd end up hearing from him after the email was sent. I'm admittedly feeling better which is a big plus! So I figure if nothing else, this will help me learn more about seeing clear Yes or Nos in charts.



I went and checked and it's another radical chart.

I'm Mars, and Moon, he's Venus and sun.

Mars is in my second house in Gemini... Feeling split on how to feel and think. Re-evaluating my values and sense of self in relationship to the situation? It's also his 8th house... So maybe he read the email and is fretting and stressing over it too...

Moon was in Virgo in the 6th house... Me trying to take care of myself, focusing on my health, trying to get myself in order again.

Venus is in my 12th house... I'd take this as me no longer seeing him as a part of my life in any way after the email. He's in Aries, my sign, which shows that maybe he's now feeling more receptive towards me which is quite a big shift from the previous two charts.

Sun is also placed in my house. It's in the Venus ruled sign of Taurus however. So it could be that mentally he may be opening up to me (Venus in Aries), but he's overall still focused on himself.

So... Aspect wise it's interesting. His third house ruler is Jupiter. That's currently in his house. It's applying to a trine with Mars (me).

Sun and Moon are also applying to a Trine.

Sun and Jupiter are in positions to act, where as my significators ... Not so much. My 3H ruler is in my house, though. But it's not moving to apply to Jupiter any longer, and won't aspect sun before it leaves the sign. It's moving to Uranus, which I see as me trying to detached myself from making any further attempts at initiating communication.

Am I reading this one right? It feels weirdly more positive than the previous two, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello UpandAbove,

Some comments:

UpandAbove wrote:
Moon was in Virgo in the 6th house... Me trying to take care of myself, focusing on my health, trying to get myself in order again.


It cannot mean that. You are not Mercury in this chart. It does show the Moon is helpless though. There is nothing it can do.

UpandAbove wrote:
He's in Aries, my sign, which shows that maybe he's now feeling more receptive towards me which is quite a big shift from the previous two charts.


No shift. The first chart showed multiple positive receptions towards you. It is repeated here. Being in the 12th though shows no action from Venus' part.

UpandAbove wrote:
Sun is also placed in my house. It's in the Venus ruled sign of Taurus however. So it could be that mentally he may be opening up to me (Venus in Aries), but he's overall still focused on himself.


The Sun appreciates the attention. He is on the cusp of your 2nd house of "esteem". He likes being liked.

UpandAbove wrote:
So... Aspect wise it's interesting. His third house ruler is Jupiter. That's currently in his house. It's applying to a trine with Mars (me). Sun and Moon are also applying to a Trine.


Jupiter is collecting the light of Mars and Venus so it connects them. The Sun appreciated the Moon's intention (it exalts it).

So the possibility of a response is there.

UpandAbove wrote:
Am I reading this one right? It feels weirdly more positive than the previous two, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something.


It depends on what you are expecting. Are you expecting a positive response to mend your relationship? If so, I advise caution, just like the first chart.

Jupiter, the thing that brings Mars and Venus together is on Neptune by antiscion. This at the very least brings surprises. More likely it simply means Jupiter is "hidden" or "inaccessible". The Moon is opposing Neptune which means that emotionally there is something you cannot see or does not wish to see or accept.

Mars and Jupiter are in negative mutual reception and Jupiter connects to Venus by opposition. I think that can mean one of two things: 1) the contact (Jupiter, email, his L3) you receive back is not agreeable to you or 2) there will be no contact: Jupiter is "hidden in his house" so it never gets out.

Unless timing is a specific part of the question it is very, very rare that it is shown. Also, if the answer is no there cannot be a timing.

Best,
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

felipeastrologo wrote:
Hello UpandAbove,

Some comments:

It cannot mean that. You are not Mercury in this chart. It does show the Moon is helpless though. There is nothing it can do.


I've seen the moon often times used to describe the querents emotional state and stock in relationship to the question, so my pointing that out isn't to say I'm Mercury so much as pointing out the position it holds in relationship to myself emotionally. Sorry about the confusion!

Quote:
No shift. The first chart showed multiple positive receptions towards you. It is repeated here. Being in the 12th though shows no action from Venus' part.


Thank you! I wasn't sure how to consider it because Venus is placed relatively close to the first house cusp.

Quote:
The Sun appreciates the attention. He is on the cusp of your 2nd house of "esteem". He likes being liked.


This is an interesting interpretation though admittedly thinking back to the email, I'm not sure how much this would fit as, while it did state my feelings, the majority of it reflected on disappointments and the like but if he takes that in that way, it'd certainly be interesting!

Quote:
Jupiter is collecting the light of Mars and Venus so it connects them. The Sun appreciated the Moon's intention (it exalts it).

So the possibility of a response is there.


Thank you?

Quote:


It depends on what you are expecting. Are you expecting a positive response to mend your relationship? If so, I advise caution, just like the first chart.


I don't think at this point I'm factoring in the idea of a positive response. In this context, promising simply means hearing anything at all. I'd imagine if I did hear from him, it'd likely be just as heavy and jarring as what I sent him.

Quote:
Jupiter, the thing that brings Mars and Venus together is on Neptune by antiscion. This at the very least brings surprises. More likely it simply means Jupiter is "hidden" or "inaccessible". The Moon is opposing Neptune which means that emotionally there is something you cannot see or does not wish to see or accept.


This is also possible! I can't honestly say at this point that I'm actively looking to get back together. I'm not ready for a relationship, even if he came running in saying he wanted to start over. I've been doing a lot of emotional chewing though, trying to get a better understanding of things, and at this point I think I've combed over everything I could have, but that being said, it's still possible I'm missing something entirely.
Quote:

Mars and Jupiter are in negative mutual reception and Jupiter connects to Venus by opposition. I think that can mean one of two things: 1) the contact (Jupiter, email, his L3) you receive back is not agreeable to you or 2) there will be no contact: Jupiter is "hidden in his house" so it never gets out.

Unless timing is a specific part of the question it is very, very rare that it is shown. Also, if the answer is no there cannot be a timing.

Best,


Thanks for your help again! I figured if this turned out to be yes then a timing could be discerned from it by looking at the degrees before the planets meet. But I wasn't sure if this was a yes, so I couldn't tell if timing was something that could really be considered.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UpandAbove wrote:
I've seen the moon often times used to describe the querents emotional state and stock in relationship to the question, so my pointing that out isn't to say I'm Mercury so much as pointing out the position it holds in relationship to myself emotionally. Sorry about the confusion!


Oh, ok. Yes, the Moon is the querent's co-significator here so it definitely shows your emotional atate and stock.

UpandAbove wrote:
I wasn't sure how to consider it because Venus is placed relatively close to the first house cusp.


It is not close enough to be in the 1st, so it is in the 12th. But being in the sign of the asscendant shows receptivity. It is literal, as in * receptions*.

UpandAbove wrote:
I'd imagine if I did hear from him, it'd likely be just as heavy and jarring as what I sent him.


Remember the first chart?: the Moon was applying to trine Jupiter with negative reception. What you say is a clear match of that configuration.

UpandAbove wrote:
I've combed over everything I could have, but that being said, it's still possible I'm missing something entirely.


I find it interesting that we have two testimonies for things hidden in this chart, which is a theme we saw before. Jupiter on Neptune in his house and Moon opposing Neptune.
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UpandAbove



Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 22

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

felipeastrologo wrote:

It is not close enough to be in the 1st, so it is in the 12th. But being in the sign of the asscendant shows receptivity. It is literal, as in * receptions*.


Thank you for the clarification!

Quote:

Remember the first chart?: the Moon was applying to trine Jupiter with negative reception. What you say is a clear match of that configuration.


Oh, yes. Thank you!!

Quote:

I find it interesting that we have two testimonies for things hidden in this chart, which is a theme we saw before. Jupiter on Neptune in his house and Moon opposing Neptune.


Admittedly yes, things got a little strange after I sent the email. Two of his very good friends who I really liked and miss a lot but haven't spoken to since we broke up out of... Well... Respect of boundaries (I'm a Virgo so I compartmentalize like the Dickens) reached out to me within a few days/week of sending the email. I chatted a bit with them, most of it was just catching up, though one of them did try to start poking a bit in the direction of our relationship. I ended up side stepping it entirely because I was just too emotionally raw to try and think about talking about it after the email, especially with someone who's as close to him as she is.

I'm still not quite sure what to make of it. It made my intuitive antennas tingle but in a way that I'm still not sure what to make of. Even when we were together, neither of them tried speaking to me outside of when I'd go to their place and hang out with him so i couldn't help but feel like something may have been up!!

At any rate, if something's hidden, there's only so much speculation that can be done until it comes to light, right? Though admittedly it makes me curious to draft up a chart to see when whatever is hidden may come to light, if only because, at the last, it could be a more direct and straight forward way to learn timing in horary.
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