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France - Marine Le Pen: what went wrong?
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 93

Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject: France - Marine Le Pen: what went wrong? Reply with quote

Hello, all!

By now every one must know that Macron is the new President of France.

My question here is: most analysis I saw, here and many other places, all pointed to Marine Le Pen, since her chart has more "presidential and success" aspects, and her timing techniques seemed better for today.

So, where did the analysis went wrong?

I’m asking this because I truly believe that an astrologer learns far more with a mistake than with errors.

BEST
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
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Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: France people's choice Reply with quote

Good question! I agreed with you that astrologers learn far more with mistakes and with errors.

I predicted for Le pen and it is failed ,but I'm not very surprised .

World is changing . We're afraid of change, very and very.

As the previous article said, Saturn and Jupiter conjunction is going to Aquarius , which is ruled by Saturn .

https://sfhorary.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/saturn-jupiter-conjunction-in-2020/

Saturn is meant tradition, order, conservation, and independent or even isolation.

Now, they are in Gemini ,which is ruled by Mercury's.

Mercury is meant information, technology, Iphone, and commerce and globalization.

As we know, Saturn 's influence is quite different from Mercury.

In my perspective , the most political difference between Le pen and Macron is leaving or staying EU.

In the early Dutch general election , Netherlands people chose to maintain the present situation , then we are not surprised that France people think so today since both of them are founded countries of EU.

And I think Le Pen lost many voters's support since she didn't have a clear alternative economy plan if France withdrew from EU.

While, wrong prediction is wrong prediction, that means my study has a large room for improvement.


Tongue Out
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
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Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: But what went wrong on the charts analysis? Reply with quote

Hello, MingWei!

Thank you for bravely joining the discussion and acknowledging the error (some astrologers delete everything they predicted wrong - which I have no words to describe).

You mentioned political, historical and social factors. But it is my understanding that the charts used for a prediction must be above all this (or take all this into consideration) to give the FINAL result of the election, for example.

A few years ago, here in Brazil, there was a tight election between Dilma Roussef and Aecio Neves. Many astrologers that predicted Aecio (the loser) afterwards said that they made a mistake because there was frauds at the ballots. To my view, this is hardly an excuse, because the chart should show the final result, fraudulent or not.

So, just to come back to track, what, astrologically speaking, made astrologers err when making predictions on the French election? Macron’s chart is, indeed, much less "dignified and presidential" than Le Pen’s. But how come he won?

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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
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Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: But what went wrong on the charts analysis? Reply with quote

Yair Alon wrote:


So, just to come back to track, what, astrologically speaking, made astrologers err when making predictions on the French election? Macron’s chart is, indeed, much less "dignified and presidential" than Le Pen’s. But how come he won?

BEST


To be honest , it is hard to compare charts with each other what is more dignified or presidential.

I used the lord of year for predicting and from their direction , Le Pen seems to enter into a career peak or turning point, while in Macron's chart , the same omen isn't remarkable as in Le Pen's .

There must be something I missed. :-)
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with you that we can learn from our failures.
There are three reasons for failures in the analysis:
1. Birth chart is not rectified, or improperly rectified
2. The techniques one is using are either fictional or not proven valid
3. Not knowing the Pre- Natal Epoch
Re Marine Le Pen: luckily, I have found 18 events, most of them with accurate date, so rectification of her chart wasn't too difficult: 10.59.54 CET Asc 11Lib49'. It is about 20 minutes earlier the time recorded on her Birth Certificate. The techniques I'm using are Alexander Marr's methods; the main one is Primary Directions in Topocentric System.
For the elections, the main primary directions are:
3rd cusp sextile Neptune orb 5'
Neptune conjunct Asc orb 10'
These 2 negative aspects and not having any other helping aspects are enough to lead for failure.
Her Epoch, using Alexander Marr's method, is casting for 13 Nov 1967 14.42.28 GMT Asc 10Ari34'.
In most cases, the Epoch is reflecting the destiny much better than the radix. Here, Mars, the ruler, in 10th, Saturn is rising with the Moon in opposition to Venus. Sun conjunct Neptune.
Using the Dual Test system, we have some more negative aspects in primaries:
Neptune square 3rd cusp (orb 1')
3rd cusp conjunct Mars (orb 11')
Moon sextile Saturn (orb 0')
The only helping aspect is Mercury trine Jupiter orb 3'.
In secondary directions we have:
Venus, the ruler, in opposition to Saturn orb 7'
Regressed Venus sextile Saturn orb 10'
In dual test: 3rd cusp conjunct Saturn orb 10'
Transits:
Mercury conjunct Saturn orb 35'!!
Neptune trine MC orb 67'
Mars trine Asc orb 32'
Converse transits:
Saturn square 3rd cusp orb 23'
Neptune sextile Asc orb 19', conjunct Mercury orb 46' and conjunct Sun orb 91'
In the lunar return Saturn conjunct MC and Moon
In the converse lunar return Saturn 90 Desc
In the demi-lunar return, Mars on Asc
In the converse demi lunar return Mars again on Asc
All the lunar returns are precession corrected.
There are also a lot of negative aspects in PSSR system.
Such accumulation of negative aspects imply to defeat.
A full explanation of the above methods one can see in Juan Estadella's book Predictive Astrology, free download from his website: www.juanestadella.com
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to think about your question a lot more, but am thinking that transiting Jupiter, which was conjunct Marine Le Pen's Ascendant and aspecting her Mars, and also activating Macron's Saturn, Pluto and Ascendant, was taking the outer planets it was carrying the wrong way. There is a question mark in my mind whether Jupiter does this?

She has lost an election, but maybe the pattern of outer planets was going the wrong way, at that moment, because of Jupiter which was carrying them, and Macron may find he doesn't have a lot of political power after that Jupiter moment has passed and the major long term pattern of outer planets gets carried by other carrying planets that take them in their intended direction. Visually, maybe this is just a counter-wave against the main trend? Even though a major election seems so set in stone.
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elka



Joined: 17 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A natal chart is just a microcosmic snapshot within greater and continuing cycles of the outer planets and the generational cycles of the "great chronocrators": Jupiter and Saturn. The ego/personality is formed, in part, from this environmental substance and is birthed into a particular rhythm of whichever cycle/s are operating at that time. So, generally, if the ego does not resonate with the radix chart[s] of the matter in hand then a ‘successful’ outcome is unlikely.

The two main radix charts here would be an event chart of the Election [as shown in the other thread] and the root chart of the Nation, which blueprints and defines its character and national identity. The latter chart, for me, would be the 1792 chart of the 1st Republic, which describes most of these characteristics quite well.

At the time the 1st Republic was inaugurated Cap was rising, with Saturn ruler in Taurus opposing Jupiter in Scorpio; an Uranus/Leo Pluto/Aquarius & Mar/Scorpio T Square & Mars in sextile with Neptune and Mars conjuncting the Scorpion MC.

Two major cycles are operating here: 20 year cycle of the chronocrators Jupiter and Saturn and the 127 year cycle of Uranus Pluto whose ‘“relentless power of change and revolution bears down on humanity- for those in power their downfall can be swift and harsh...”

Planetary synods bring to the fore new beginnings, for good or ill, and this particular Uranus/Pluto cycle began in 1710 in 28° Leo’ [apparently conjunct the mid heaven in the natal chart of Louis XIV- not checked]

Also Barbault states “The fabric of history is woven from the cycle Mars Neptune which gave emphasis to the reign of the revolutionary Commune, from the conjunction of August 10, 1792 when King Louis XVI was dethroned...”

A socialist republic for and by the people is the heart core of the French psyche, despite subsequent coup d'état and takeovers that followed on throughout its history..

The current Uranus/Pluto synod began in 1966 in Virgo, which is still in close conjunction in Marine Le Pen’s natal chart, which resonates with the Sun and Mercury in Virgo in the 1792 chart and her Mars nicely sextiles this Uranus/Pluto and trines her Neptune in Scorpio [which conjuncts the Mars in 1792 chart] .

Just on those aspects alone she would appear to represent the face and leader of Traditional French Socialism, however her apparent downfall, in the public arena, comes, in part, from the neo fascism inheritance of her father: Cap 4th House; ruler Saturn in Aries/7th square to Mars in Cancer.

Her chart appears split between traditional values of socialism and what right wing neo fascism represented when it arose as a post–World War II ideology. Of course fascism can morph into other and new extreme views [see below].

Both these movements and ideologies do not translate well into today’s political agenda of Gloablisation and the continuing evolution of Capitalism, and its so called economic growth necessity. Also 21st technology can hack into behind the scenes of government machinery and social media can manipulate public opinion in ways never known in old systems of electioneering..

Old political ideologies are crumbling or being made to crumble in the wake of this evolving Movement and, apparently, Macron fits the bill as a representative of the European project, which forms part of the New World Order.

Taken from www.globalresearch.ca:
“Macron has been well groomed for a possible leadership role in France despite him never before having run for political office. His involvement in government has been in the areas of economic planning and finance. He worked as an investment banker with the Rothschild & Cia Banque for several years...”
And the Huffington Post notes the historic character of the French elections:
“Now, for the first time in this current governmental system, neither one of the large parties of the right and left, which have shaped France’s political life for over 60 years, is represented in the runoff elections for the presidency. ....Only an average of about one out of four voters supported one of the two major powers that have historically driven politics in recent years.”

On the face of the current French situation Le Pen’s natal chart does resonate more with the radix charts in question and Macron’s chart very little, as far as I can make out. However if the bigger picture is one that is observed by some [as outlined] then his chart may need further scrutiny, alongside charts of the inception of the EU and other related charts..[But I believe he is, currently, just a small pawn in the larger game framework]

Globalisation is the new 21st century 'politics', which will spawn new forms of ideologies e.g. “the danger of 21st century fascism and its far-right responses to [global capitalism] particularly in the United States ..” as expressed by William I. Robinson, professor of sociology and global studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

Astrological cycles of the outer planets will of course reflect all these upheavals and transformations within the rise and fall nations, its people and their collective political ideologies but I’ll leave that up to more skilled mundane astrologers and political scientists to assess outcomes ... but the general global picture looks highly interesting from 2020- 2030-ish when some of the old astrological cycles end and move into new ones.

And it will remain to be seen how political leaders will arise and operate within this ‘brave new world’ of automaton machine thinking...
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elka



Joined: 17 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Referring to my old notes on *just* the Uranus/Pluto cycle, taken from the book Mundane Astrology by Baigant, Campion and Harvey, which was first published in 1984, Harvey refers to the last cycle - beginning 1851 and current cycle - beginning in 1966 - as follows:

“This 127-year cycle appears to be important for the radical restructuring of peoples and nations. Ebertin describes it as "building again upon the ruins of the old". The process is not necessarily as immediately drastic as this would imply. But as was seen on p.164-6 the main incoming phases* of this cycle marked out very precisely some of the main destructive and reconstructive phases in the development of Germany between 1938 and 1955 and the main phases of the Vietnamese/S.E. Asian transformations which came to a crisis under the last such conjunction during 1965 /66. Barbault has also noted a strong relationship between this cycle and the emergence of Japan. On the scientific and intellectual plane the 1965-66 conjunction in Virgo correlates closely with the emergence of the electronics, computer, and micro-processor industry. This may well be an indication that this next Uranus-Pluto cycle will focus more on intellectual revolutions than on physical ones. Non-astrological observers now talk of the pre- and post-1965 generations, i.e. those for whom the world of computers is still essentially strange and those who have grown up with electronic wizardry as part of their natural environment. Undoubtedly this Uranus-Pluto generation will provide the systems and linguistic analysts and logicians who will develop artificial intelligence, the next information technology revolution, and all that this implies for mankind's evolution...”

(* “as the cycle moves into the descending phase, from its fruition at the opposition back towards the conjunction, the energies of the cycle are turning inwards and downwards....Rudhyar calls this the disseminating half of the cycle when what is harvested at the opposition is distributed to the world...”)

The first square of this cycle occurred during 2012-2015: “a striving to actualize the potential inherent in the original conjunction”. The opposition occurs in 2047 ”if the conjunction represents the infinite subjective potential of the seed then the opposition is its objective expression: the fruit” ~Harvey

The wheels of “radical restructuring of peoples and nations..” (resulting in social and political engineering), appear to operate within its own particular time frame but, of course, against the backdrop of the wider astrological global picture.
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SteveGus



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the second election was held between two candidates, neither of which were precisely the establishment or the party in power, it did become somewhat ambiguous to assign rulers or determine who's who.

I figured the stars were in Le Pen's favor. I wasn't sure that would be enough to carry her past the cordon sanitaire that seems to have been erected around her movement. I thought she might do well even if that wasn't enough to win; and she did win more votes than her father did, and more than have ever been earned by a candidate from her party.

Sometimes it makes sense to bet the favorite.
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MingWei Wang



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Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recently , I have listened to Nick Campion’s lecture on Mundane Astrology and agreed with one of point.

Perhaps, it is true, the uncertainty principle . Astrology alone cannot predict the future in detail with certainty.

One of my acquaintance whose boy friend is living in France, used to talk about France election with me a few months ago.

She said , that was her word, “ Le Pen has never had a chance for win. She says that she is going to annual euro and rearrange franc, that is no way to get , because casting molds have been dumped ! “

It might be a joke or you can take it seriously.

My point is that we only get a glance at God’s will through astrological charts and predicting the future is the most difficult thing in the world as Guido Bonatti said,nevertheless, I’d try my best to test astrological techniques and tolerate the errors.
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Phoenix9061210



Joined: 31 May 2017
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Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was rigged. Plain and simple.

http://yournewswire.com/marine-le-pen-election-rigged/
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SIDERUM



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Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paris is Burning
https://siderumcom.wordpress.com/2017/05/06/paris-is-burning/
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix9061210 wrote:
It was rigged. Plain and simple.

http://yournewswire.com/marine-le-pen-election-rigged/


First thing is that I thought Le Pen might just win it but the rigging story seems plausible. I am not saying that because I am looking at excuses for getting it wrong. One of the charts considered did have a Saturn opposition that made we wonder about it being a problem for her. Certainly if one sees the people supporting her and the popular vote was in her favour then you might well see that as an indication of victory and then miss the possibilty of fraud
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ModWasp



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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Certainly if one sees the people supporting her and the popular vote was in her favour then you might well see that as an indication of victory and then miss the possibilty of fraud


The ruling elites are terrified of the white working classes because more and more of them are escaping the straight jacket of political correctness. And political correctness is a form of mind kontrol employed by governments all across the western world. Without it, they cannot control how people behave.

Of course it was rigged.
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have loosened my strait-jacket a moment allowing me to note that your reply seems to be more of a political statement than an astrological one so might be contrary to forum guidelines and subject to censure from the moderator

Best regards

:-)
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