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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Time For A Serious Talk About Sports Astrology
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 668

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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What are these variables? The method works by finding the 1st aspect from the 5th cusp and then taking it from there.


The variables are surely the factors that distinguish between each of the Mars sounding names when Mars is the first aspect.

Quote:
This is one of the problems that we find. If the 1st aspect is to Mars for example, how do we distinguish between a tiger, an eagle, a warrior or something with red in it's name? This is where it comes down to the astrologer's skill at interpreting the chart.


Again though, it only depends on the astrologer's skill if the method is flawless in the first place.


Quote:
This is exactly what i have been saying on this here thread. My own point is why doesn't it work with consistency? And that is my current investigation.My thought on the matter is that Jupiter's current state may very well have some sort of influence at the moment. Or maybe it's the square to retrograde Pluto? There is obviously a reason behind why JAM isn't working particularly well at the moment. But that's not to say that it isn't working - as GB pointed out Handsome Dude won at 8/1 yesterday.


Yes, and that could be it doesn't really work at all. Handsome Dude winning on its own doesn't really prove it either way. If the method was being used to consistently pick winners, then yes, but it isn't. The way I approached it was to take charts that are similar enough to have the same first aspect, but more often than not the names of the winning horses were not of a similar theme. There are enough races in the UK beginning at a similar time to make this a valid approach.


Quote:
But it doesn't. Finding a horse who's significator is L12 seems to be a more important factor, because a horse is bigger than a goat. Planets on the 10th angle are important but according to Lilly, a horse race is a 12th house matter - Lehman's Rulership Book, page 118. If you use the 10th as the house of victory, as you suggest, (Victory is Mars, btw), then one would need to look at the turned 10th - the 9th - because a horse is a 12th house creature. And it is the horse that wins the race, not it's pilot, trainer, owner etc...


This is an area I really didn't want to get into since no-one looks at a chart the same way, suffice it to say, we see the chart much differently. For me and the kind of astrology I practise, houses don't signify things like horses generally, planets do. The 12th lord would be the horse (or the enemies, or the suffering and so on) of the subject who is represented by the 1st. In an electional chart for a race, there is no person or entity shown by the degree rising, so no horse belonging to them or found in their experience.


Quote:
That would depend on the current situation. And it's these very situations call for the need to engage brain. You are suggesting that a natal chart is preferable to read over the event chart. Yet Ryan Moore doesn't win every race, even when he's on the odds-on favourite for an in-form trainer and neither does Frankie who is a big race performer. How would you explain that? I would suggest that it's down to the horse on the day. But there are jockeys who seem to have a virtually empathic relationship with horses - these two are among them. And certainly AP had that, so there is something to be looked at in natal charts. Maybe you could be our man for that angle of investigation?


Actually, I am saying the natal chart should sit above an event chart in importance, but that perhaps they should be used together to predict the outcomes of sporting contests. I would explain Ryan Moore not winning every race even in what would be a successful year by pointing out that the year itself is subject to ups and downs, and that is true of every single person in every area of life we can predict. Obviously, the idea of using the event chart against the nativity is complete conjecture, the problem is that we do not have the nativities to even begin testing it and there is virtually no way of getting them. If it is as I suspect, and we are missing something here and that something is the nativity, then we are at an impasse.
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ModWasp



Joined: 21 Mar 2014
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Yes, and that could be it doesn't really work at all. Handsome Dude winning on its own doesn't really prove it either way. If the method was being used to consistently pick winners, then yes, but it isn't. The way I approached it was to take charts that are similar enough to have the same first aspect, but more often than not the names of the winning horses were not of a similar theme.


Ok, but i have 1000's of winning charts to prove that JAM does work. You once posted that you thought that a system should have 90% accuracy. I believe you need to lower your expectations a little. 90% win rate is never going to happen. I also remember that you posted that you used whole sign houses with JAM, which completely goes against the theory of campanus houses. Little wonder you have no faith in it.


Quote:
There are enough races in the UK beginning at a similar time to make this a valid approach.


That's a little bit like saying 'all 18th September Virgos will fall off a ladder tonight'

Quote:
If it is as I suspect, and we are missing something here and that something is the nativity, then we are at an impasse.


Our conversation is at an impasse for several reasons. But let me ask you this one last question; How are you going to find an accurate birth chart for a horse?

Conversations about nativities for horses have been going on for years. All that is happening here is that the same old predictable arguments are being recycled, yet again.
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ModWasp



Joined: 21 Mar 2014
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there anyone here who would like to take a rather progressive approach to this topic?
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GB



Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not have a solution, just a few thoughts.

Timed charts for each horse in a race would be very useful, but we do not have them. However, we do have the birth date, so we are in the same situation as in normal natal prediction when we do not have a person's birth time. We can still do some good prediction.

However, this assumes that natal astrology works for horses in the same way as for people, or in a different detailed way, but still that it works. This is a big assumption. Doing a natal chart for your pet cat may, or may not, give useful information, but it is not a common technique. Cats (or horses) are not people.

So, should we give-up trying to predict horse race results? Perhaps, but I will continue because it's fun Smile

I find the C5th method is often unreliable, but sufficiently often correct to be worth investigating. In particular I think there are times (for which read astrological circumstances) when it works better than at others. I don't know the details yet, but I will continue researching and testing and recording results.

Something like C5th, or using the angles, etc. has the advantage of using a method that is 'impersonal' (or "imequine"). It does not assume the birth chart for a horse works like a personal natal chart, it is more general. This may, or may not be an advantage. I don't know.
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Saturnhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great responses - I have enjoyed this thread immensely. Thank you Thumbs up

I want to take Handsome Dude as an example...

The first 3 aspects from 5th house are:-

-ssqr Saturn 0.02 d
-bqnt Mars 0.05 d
-novl Moon 1.19 d

In my opinion, 'Handsome' would be ruled by Venus. Yes, Jupiter (Male Planet) is in Libra, and the biquintile Mars (Male Planet) sextiles Venus.

But I suppose, my point with Addey has always been, there are often too many choices. Look at the other horses that finished in the top 3:-

2. Major (Jupiter or Mars) Pusey
3. Snappy Shots (Mars)

I appreciate what ModWasp is saying; it's down to the skill of the Astrologer. But how on earth would anyone decide against picking any of the top 3 finishers?

There has to be another 'filter' put in place (which goes back to what GB is saying). Something has to be repeated 3 or more times for it to 'ring true'.

Handsome Dudes Solar Arc Mercury is exactly conjunct the race angle.

Major Pusey Solar Arc Sun is less than a degree away from the race angle.

Snappy Shots Solar Arc Mercury is less than a degree away from the race angle.

Now, there is no way I'm doing this '2nd filter' for every horse in a race, and it only works 40% of the time - I tested it out on every winner for Saturday's racing. And, that was just on Saturday.

Who knows if that stat would hold up over time?

I think I will continue my 'Sports Astrology' research on sports with 2 opponents, as I want to concentrate on the natal charts of participants.

Horse Racing astrology has been fun, but I think after 6 years of doing it every day, I'm gonna pop it back on the shelf.

Lala Happy
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ModWasp



Joined: 21 Mar 2014
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But how on earth would anyone decide against picking any of the top 3 finishers?


That, surely, comes down to savvy?

Quote:
Now, there is no way I'm doing this '2nd filter' for every horse in a race, and it only works 40% of the time - I tested it out on every winner for Saturday's racing. And, that was just on Saturday.


Here's one filter for you - 1st aspect to L12.
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Saturnhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

18:30 Windsor - Think Fashion (Venus)

Laughing
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ModWasp



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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

21:00

Light Gunner - ant. Sun conj.Mars, L12
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ModWasp



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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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18:30 Windsor - Think Fashion (Venus)

Laughing
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L12 for you.

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Saturnhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, dude - I'm not letting you get away with that! Laughing The first 12th cusp aspect was a trine to Saturn.

The 12th cusp represents loss in my Vedic world.

My 'lucky' pick was easy.

In my Rishi Universe, amongst other things, Mars rules gem stones.

Your Su/Ma 21:00 pick is up against:-

Red Master and Beauchamp Opal.

Quick spin through the Solar Arcs for all three 'Addey Picks'...

Red Master - it's Solar Arc Mars is just over 3 degrees away from Racing MC, but exactly square Racing POF.

Beauchamp Opal - it's Solar Arc Mercury is exacly conjunct the Race Angle.

Light Gunner - it's Saturn is within 1 degree of the Racing POF.


Now, just to pour some reality into our whimsical bowl of dreams...

Overall, Beauchamp Opal & Light Gunner are joint 3rd best horses in the race, but Beauchamp Opal has run faster than Light Gunner in their last 4 races.

Looking at the stats, I just can't understand why Red Mster is fav, but that could just be me being a complete can.
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john



Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we approaching the zone where we judge our astrology by Newtonís apple (see my previous post). What we do is no different than any other area of astrology and if astrology is to be judged by knowing what will happen to an individual on an hour by hour basis each day we can close down Skyscript now.

There are nativities for jockeys in this country and the USA, together with timed events for victories (in this country it is down to 100th of a second). We also have timed natal charts for horses as well. If any analysis of any technique with any house system is desired to be researched then the data is there already.

We donít seem to know what we mean by successful, is £88 equating to £6000, 88p equating to £60, a series of 88p (on average) bets slowly building up to £60, consecutive number of winning horses, consecutive wins/places, etc. the right measure. I know how non-astrologers would judge how successful we are.

If anyone was daft enough to bet on my picks at Aintree and Cheltenham I believe they would not be out of pocket. Itís good enough by my standards.

When armed with a natal chart and any technique, what are we expecting, possibly that a particular sensitive point is being activated? I may be playing all the rights notes but not necessarily in the right order but if that/those sensitive points cross the Ascendant during a day then maybe an event could occur!!

Back to the world of qualitative time, Iíll leave JAM to others. We currently have Jupiter crossing the Ascendant and Mars the MC during race times each day. When Sovereign Debt won with Moon on the Ascendant and a female owner was noted, within a few minutes at other venues and Moon still on the Ascendant the trainer Jessica Harrington won and jockey Josephine Gordon won. Itís not Newtonís apple but there is a qualitative theme.

There is a traditional technique of horse colours and setting out for the race at a certain time which exists. Perhaps this can be disregarded along with the contents of the rest of the book it is in. However, this method has also provided results but it helps to see the horse close up first.

Anyhow, Iím not put off; Iím content enough that what Iím doing is providing a level of success far better than when I wasnít using astrology. We have our own little ritual about how we go about it, for those of you more spiritually inclined.

On the theme of ritual it makes me ponder whether keeping a Ďpickí private or making it public has any difference and whether the astrologer joining with the event, that is placing a bet, also has an effect.

To that extent, we are heading south in a few days and should be experimenting at Sandown on Saturday. Iíll also happily join in with anything at Ascot next week and am prepared to sink without trace!!
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john



Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't usually look at Races below Class2. A quick look at Windsor 9pm has jockey DeSousa on Red Master and trainer Ryan with Bizet.
Here goes nothing.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ok, but i have 1000's of winning charts to prove that JAM does work. You once posted that you thought that a system should have 90% accuracy. I believe you need to lower your expectations a little. 90% win rate is never going to happen. I also remember that you posted that you used whole sign houses with JAM, which completely goes against the theory of campanus houses. Little wonder you have no faith in it.


How many charts taken from the same period were losers? And by winners and losers, we'd have to ignore gambling wins and look at actual race winners since we are not setting the election to win a bet.

I said I used whole-sign houses for football charts, I have never mentioned what I used with Addey's method though I'd hope you'd give me enough credit to assume that I used his method as he set it out before I decided it wasn't working to a decent level of accuracy.

Quote:
That's a little bit like saying 'all 18th September Virgos will fall off a ladder tonight'


No, it isn't. You said the only variable is the first aspect of the 5th cusp, if that is the case, and in two races run on the same day we have Mars as the first aspect in the same house, sign and making the same aspects in each chart, I think it is fair to expect a Mars themed horse to win. Looking at the Sun to predict a huge swathe of people's day as identical is nowhere near that.

Quote:
Our conversation is at an impasse for several reasons. But let me ask you this one last question; How are you going to find an accurate birth chart for a horse?


Why would you use a horse's chart? Horse racing is a human endeavour and any success or failure therein is a human experience.

Quote:
All that is happening here is that the same old predictable arguments are being recycled, yet again.


It is a shame you feel that way, but if the same arguments have been going around for years, maybe they haven't been refuted properly? Ultimately, the greatest and most incisive refutation would be someone demonstrating its accuracy rate to be significantly higher than the very best non-astrological predictor for long period of time. From there, that success would then have to be replicated by other people to show that it is the method and not some other ability of the individual astrologer.
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GB



Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john wrote:
We also have timed natal charts for horses as well.

I know we have dates of foaling for most horses but I had never heard of having times before. Any information would be interesting.

Where can we get these.
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john



Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi GB

If you have Solar Fire 9 there is a list of timed charts for famous horses. The time of birth is also available on the internet for Frankel and his first foal Cunco.

I will pm you as well.
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