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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Looking at Bernie Madoff's chart...again.

 
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Looking at Bernie Madoff's chart...again. Reply with quote

I have long puzzled over Bernie Madoff's chart.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Madoff,_Bernie
This is AA data, time from birth certificate.

It is extremely difficult teasing out the tangled complexities, but just highlighting his natal Saturn 11 degrees Aries 48 minutes, antiscion 18 degrees Virgo 12 minutes, is illuminating of what happened.

Natally his Saturn forms an antiscion conjunction with Neptune, which is very descriptive of the events surrounding him.

I think his Saturn is "open". I am still struggling with chirality. This would make the transits of Neptune 45 degree semi square at 3 degrees Aquarius 12 minutes and at 26 degrees Aquarius 48 minutes negative for him in matters ruled by Saturn.

It would make the first two transits of IsisTranspluto, in early Leo when he was young, positive for him in matters ruled by Saturn, but the second two, from around 2003, negative. Yet this was five years, until late 2008, when he still got away with things, and the Saturn Uranus 18 degrees Virgo/Pisces opposition in November 2008 which triggered and activated this IsisTranspluto transit, and exactly hit his natal Saturn's antiscion, was not the first to do so; why did it take so long?

I have noticed before that Solar Arcs from the chart angles to natal planets are crucial. (I noticed with the Gibb twins of the Bee Gees, it was the difference in chart angles and their Solar Arcs to their Suns, which accounted for their deaths being many years apart). Bernie Madoff's Ascendant is 28 degrees Leo 49 minutes, and the Solar Arc converse progression it makes at age seventy (a degree for a year, backwards) is 18 degrees Gemini 49 minutes, and in December of 2008 closer to 18 degrees Gemini, exactly squaring his natal Saturn's antiscion. If anyone cares to calculate it exactly, it is probably bang on exact 18 degrees 12 minutes; Solar Arcs progress at 5 minutes per month/60 minutes or one degree per year.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At his 65th birthday, or using 1st May for convenience, in 2003, converse Solar Arc Midheaven was 17 degrees Pisces 55 minutes, so adding 5 minutes per month, it would have been exact at 18 degrees Pisces 15 minutes around four months before his 65th birthday, ie about 1st January 2003, but probably having an influence one year before and one year after this date. Saturn's antiscion is 18 degrees Virgo 12 minutes.

So at the same time as Pluto was squaring his Saturn from around 18 or 19 degrees Sagittarius around January 2003, and Chiron squaring his Saturn from 12 or 13 degrees Capricorn in January 2003, and also Uranus and IsisTranspluto aspecting this point by 45 degree semisquare at this time. I can't work out why he escaped justice at this time, around January 2003. One possibility is that the Solar Arc angles have chirality, and that the Solar Arc Midheaven was helpful to him whereas the later Solar Arc of the Ascendant was harmful to him. Another possibility is that Uranus changes what the outer planets are doing, and Uranus was making a 45 degree semisquare to both his natal Saturn and its antiscion, from 26 or 27 degrees Aquarius. Only he knows what was going on in his life in January 20003, maybe as it was his IC Solar Arc converse progression that was conjunct his natal Saturn in January 2003 this was some sort of upheaval around where he was living? As this was also conjunct his natal Neptune, something to do with his home that was both Saturnian and Neptunian?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Need to look at the chart. On 10th December 2008 there was even a Sun Mars conjunction exactly squaring his natal Saturn's antiscion Neptune conjunction.

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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2710
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fleur - i think it is a good study and i see you have moved up to working with A, or AA rated charts.. kudos on that! i think that is the best way to go when doing a study of a chart..

yes - saturn and neptune seem to play heavily into the dynamic at the time of his arrest.. in fact, the simple transit data confirms this too with sun/mars/saturn config on the natal neptune, -- exact square or conjunct.. t neptune squares the midheaven 1 degree 3 minute orb... the solar arc directions have sa neptune 135 natal saturn, while sa saturn is 90 natal neptune..

the 2008 solar return is especially fascinating to examine... 2008 is a mercury profection year.. mercury in the sr is at 22 taurus - right on the midheaven.. sr saturn sits a couple of degrees off the ascendant - 1 virgo 41, while the sr ascendant at 11 leo lands firmly in the 12th house area of his natal chart.. the sr chart is last quarter - on the solar return ascendant axis, while sr nodal axis is on the ascendant/descendant axis - all in all an important year for him and those close to him..

i thought i had done a post here on skyscript back when this was happening, but maybe it was on noel tyls forum... couldn't find it their either.. oh well..

i guess i mostly think of the mercury-pluto as a potential candidate for lying or deception on a grand scale... mercury rules the 2nd and 11th houses.. this was a ponzi scheme said to have hit a number of his friends, or friends of friends.. saturn in the 8th - playing funny with others resources, especially in the sign of it's fall - aries... and of course i see saturn operating as a 12th house saturn to all the planets in taurus in his chart, which means to me, a number of dark secrets that leave a person standing on incredibly shaky ground financially.. of course this is easy to say after the fact! however, i think it is easy to see in hindsight! with the transit of saturn and south node going over his ascendant in this approach time frame - all suggest a taking down of the facade that was holding him up for too long..

it is such a horrible story for his family and all those who suffered from his mass deception... some folks are very deceptive, but not always do so many folks get stung by the deception as they did here.. reminds me of the federal reserve and banking system we presently have - one big ponzi scheme that will eventually fall down with dire consequences for many! hopefully it takes the military industrial complex with it and assigns it to the dustbin of history too..
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The natal grand cross between Madoff's ascendant (28 leo, similar to Trump's chart !) Jupiter = descendant, squaring Venus (ruler of MC) in 29 Taurus = the Plaides, (a malevolent fixed star called the weeping sisters) and asc, Jupiter and Venus all aspecting the north or south nodes, tells the story of the most prolific fraudster of all time !

Note the angular Jupiter (ruler of his 5th house of children) indicating his sons were likely drawn into his ponzi scheme and were his unwitting business partners. However, with Jupiter inconjunct Pluto, that cautions against greed as "the eyes are bigger than the stomach" and if left unchecked, it doesn't have a happy ending for Madoff or his sons ! (one hanged himself)

Let me tell you that Madoff's wife was probably in the loop and she knew what was going on, since balsamic Moon is conjunct the Sun (ruler of the 1st house) but they were both greedy !
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your useful observations, that I need to spend a lot of time looking at.

I couldn't find a lot of detailed biographical information about him, but I think he may have had poverty and hardship as a young child? Which might have been alleviated in the late 1950's, from his late teens. I am wondering if the worst of his Ponzi scheme was only from the late 1990's onwards?

Great similarities to the astrology of Adolf Hitler, in that IsisTranspluto transits were important in bringing them to power or success and they were both brought down by Neptune transits - as always ultimately triggered by faster moving planets. And also they are both similar in that it was the second pair of transits from IsisTranspluto that brought them power; for Adolf Hitler the first pair were associated with poverty and hardship in early life; I think maybe this was the same for Bernard Madoff.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2710
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabumnim,

those are good observations.. thanks.

i agree the family was in on all this.. north node in the 4th in scorpio supports the strength of madoffs ability to gain from others and being of benefit to his family. it is interesting the square of jupiter which rules the 5th and 8th and how it plays into this... generally a planet square the nodal axis represents a conflict of sorts.. which part of the axis to gravitate towards becomes a choice of going up in a more rewarding direction or down into a less fulfilling one.. and of course the nodal axis is squared onto the ascendant axis with contains jupiter too... sounds like this would be a challenging set up but i am not sure just how it all factors into everything here.

fleur,

i have never used isistranspluto... it was never in any ephemeris i ever saw either... where is it located? how many years does it take to do a complete cycle? you mention it regularly in your posts, so i imagine you know the answers to these questions.. thanks.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:




fleur,

i have never used isistranspluto... it was never in any ephemeris i ever saw either... where is it located? how many years does it take to do a complete cycle? you mention it regularly in your posts, so i imagine you know the answers to these questions.. thanks.


I see it as absolutely crucial, and being the slowest moving outermost planet it controls long term events. It has a highly elliptical orbit, and moves slowest through the sign Virgo, which it has just entered, and fastest through Pisces. It entered Leo around 1937, and has only just left Leo in the past couple of years. You can put it in any chart using Astrodienst charts, using H48 code. I have an ephemeris in a book called "Transpluto or should we call him Bacchus" by John Robert Hawkins, calculated by Neil Michelsen. There used to be an online ephemeris for it, to give you an idea how slowly it moves over the past few centuries. Its sidereal period is 685.65 Julian years.
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Madoff's natal chart, his 12th house (prisons) is ruled by the Sun, and Sun is in the 9th house, conjunct Moon in Taurus.

Numerous news reports suggest that he first enjoyed rock star status, when he was initially sentenced to the prison where he currently resides. But there were also rumours of an assault where he allegedly got beat up with a broken rib and concussion, which Madoff and his lawyer deny ever taking place !

Many inmates who have met Madoff described him as arrogant and not willing to be flexible in monetary payments and jailhouse negotiations ! With his Leo rising, and Sun and Moon in Taurus, I wonder why ! LOL

His natal Sun is actually trining natal Neptune, so prison may be a very good place for him. This would explain why it took authorities so long to prosecute him and his family ! (more than 30 years !)

So, for 30 years, this man got away with his dirty deeds ! Is it because of his angular natal Jupiter, which acted as a safety blanket for him and his family.

James is very right that the real criminals, here, are the big banks, which rob the public, daily, with outrageous fees, service charges, and so on.

My not for profit group opened up an account with a Canadian bank, last year, and, just to order 100 checks, the cost is $ 165.00 Canadian dollars, plus you have to wait three weeks for delivery ! No wonder four out of five businesses fold, within five years ! Just outrageous !

We hired three full time summer students, last year, as a result of a Canadian government grant, and no local accounting firm (we tried four) would help us with our payroll needs ! They said we had to pay for advice over the phone !

When we called Service Canada for advice, I couldn't get a hold of anyone !

When we called the Canada Revenue Agency for payroll advice, the line rang busy for three straight weeks. After 30 tries, I gave up !

Finally, I had to call the MINISTER of REVENUE, the Honourable Ms Boutillier in Ottawa, and only after I did that, did I finally get through to the payroll office. They only responded, one week later.

There is a very good reason why the Bernie Madoffs of this world surface at all. It's because the current business paradigm is disfunctional and the common man cannot run his honest business, anymore, in a ruthless, deceitful, greedy, all computerized society !

Most of you, if you ran the same not for profit as me, you would have quit, long ago !

It doesn't really matter what the planets say (or if your natal midheaven is tikity boo) if the mundane world is truly "f"ed up !

just saying,


S. (celebrating 41 years in western astrology, this week)
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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 59

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea what isis-transpluto means. All I can tell you is that mine is conjunct natal venus in leo and square mars. AMY
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amymaddalozzo wrote:
I have no idea what isis-transpluto means. All I can tell you is that mine is conjunct natal venus in leo and square mars. AMY


Lynn Koiner is the expert on IsisTranspluto. http://www.lynnkoiner.com/astrology-articles/transpluto-is-real
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first learned about Transpluto back in the early 1980's. I have never used that minor planet in any of my natal charts, mundane charts, election charts, horary charts, etc. or any other minor planet, such as Sedna or Eris.

I've noticed that some of those proponents of the smaller planets are really fanatical and if you disagree with them, they like to fight you !

Me, I don't care !

I was President of the Calgary Astrology Association in the 1980's and one of our members, a German gal named Myrta, introduced a book to me on Transpluto. She was a disciple of Reinhold Ebertin and many of his students liked using Transpluto.

I don't use asteroids, either. I was initially exposed to asteroids in a 1980 workshop by another Sun in Virgo, Dr. Zipporah Dobbyns. I have never used the asteroids since, I don't need to.

We already have plenty of detailed information to glean from, with the existing geometry of planets, including Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Chiron. So, why continue to fiddle with the zodiac ?

If it ain't broke, why fix it !

Regarding Ms. Virgo, Lynn Koiner, ah, no comment ! LOL
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 618

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabumnim, I would have to write a book to explain how I see astrology, and it is all from having thought a lot about these things and looked at a lot of charts to see how things work. A lot of things I use are tentative, and a work in progress.

I agree with you about Sedna, Eris and the asteroids.

Some bits of astrology I can't work without, and that includes IsisTranspluto. Other bits like Sedna and Eris and asteroids I don't waste my time with, they don't seem to do anything and I have tried. Other things are curious, such as the dark Moon Lilith, and Yods; I have found that they resonate with events and patterns but they are still on my back burner. Other things other people just know more about than I do, I wish I understood more and will try to study them when I get time, and from the little I know they are definitely worthy of much more study, such as Fixed Stars.
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur: I think that everyone has the right to do astrology, their way. It wouldn't be an art-form without that capability.
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