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To change or not to change - thatís the question

 
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: To change or not to change - thatís the question Reply with quote

Hello, friends!

I want to ask you a rather "philosophical" question.

Suppose youíre reading the chart of your client, and he/she has a trait that rather bothers him/her (letís call this trait X).

X can be that your client is shy, anxious, nervous, ninfomaniac, impulsive, virtually anything (even positive things, like "Iím too kind").

The question is: do you think the person has to change that X trait that bothers him/her or he has to accept that as part of his/her personality and live and cope the best way possible with X?

On a more philosophical level, as I said: does that person has X trait because he/she needs it when coming to this world (like a spiritual tool or mission) or he/she can change it and it wonít necessarily affect his spiritual path, hier purpose in this world, his/her mission in life?

Iím sorry if this is not the right part of the forum to ask this question, and if it isnít, moderator, please, move the discussion.

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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yair

I'm not a counsellor and so feel free to take this with a pinch of salt.

Personally when I've had people like this in any kind of consultation I usually prefer to keep simple short questions about why they feel this way, or ask them why these things are bad. Typically we'll see that they feel that this trait makes them less worthy as a person and these roots can go surprisingly deep, often to feelings of being unloveable or fear of being unloveable or that they are some how inadequate as people, and often a high judgemental quality about others that they may not even recognise about themselves. People form mental scripts which may not be real, but which nevertheless drive their impulses and are at the heart of crucial decision making processes.

Take shyness, they may feel that they are 'too shy' and in immediately have made a value judgement about what it means to be shy, why people are shy and what bad conclusions come about from being shy. I find it quite useful to not entertain those assumptions and scripts but rather treat them as unusual and interesting or curious. Ask "what does too shy mean?" "what does it mean to be shy, and what are the conclusions of it". They may think you're mad, after all everyone knows that shy people are victims and will always be bullied, or everyone knows that shy people are people who will never find love. You'd be surprised at what unconscious scripts are pushing people.

In every instance it can be easier to imagine someone else who is like that and emphasise compassionate qualities whilst being unimpressed by the opposite extreme until they can find some forgiveness for themselves - this can be hard or difficult for some people to understand, but they may need to forgive themselves for not being the person someone else wanted them to be or for the pressures they place themselves.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: To change or not to change - thatís the question Reply with quote

Hi Yair,

These are interesting questions you are asking. When I first learned astrology back in the 1990s, it was actually to expand my possibilities in my work as a counsellor, which also included Bach Flower therapy and other alternative methods.

Yair Alon wrote:
Hello, friends!

I want to ask you a rather "philosophical" question.

Suppose youíre reading the chart of your client, and he/she has a trait that rather bothers him/her (letís call this trait X).

X can be that your client is shy, anxious, nervous, ninfomaniac, impulsive, virtually anything (even positive things, like "Iím too kind").

The question is: do you think the person has to change that X trait that bothers him/her or he has to accept that as part of his/her personality and live and cope the best way possible with X?


Fighting against yourself is a losing battle. Acceptance is generally the first step. That's when you can develop awareness of your behavior, what situations trigger it, the reasons for it, etc. Before that, it is unlikely that you will be able to modify it.

In ancient schemes, there were both vices and virtues attributed to every planet. It is important to understand that no psychological trait is bad per se: The shy person is also considerate; the impulsive one knows how to get things done without delay, etc. In other words, create a positive reference that facilitates self-acceptance and at the same time helps to shift focus to a more positive expression of the trait.

Often, it will be found that to attain that "higher expression", more balance is needed though: The person with a lot of Martian energy needs to integrate things of a Venusian nature into their life, etc.

Quote:
On a more philosophical level, as I said: does that person has X trait because he/she needs it when coming to this world (like a spiritual tool or mission) or he/she can change it and it wonít necessarily affect his spiritual path, hier purpose in this world, his/her mission in life?


Well, "negative" and "positive" are evaluations of relative validity, at best. And sometimes traits that seem exaggerated do serve a purpose in the bigger picture. In such a case, the induvidual isn't ready to change, and no amount of therapy is going to make it happen.

However, as we are going through processes of psychospiritual evolution, we are again and again required to work through certain difficult issues and hopefully find more enlightened ways to apply the underlying forces. In fact, many astrologers look at both the natal chart as well as transits, various directions etc. in those terms.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi yair,

i think it is a very good question you ask - philosophical perhaps, but with deep implications depending on how it gets answered... and, i like how paul and michael have responded to this as well...

for me everyone has some sort of narrative going with themselves.. they may not want to examine it in any depth, but it really is a case of greater self awareness leading to greater acceptance of oneself.. all the dynamics that involve others only matter to us when these people trigger some attachment we have to a value held sacred that we feel they up hold, or infringe upon... as an example - there may be dictators in the world, but it is the dictator in us that we have to come to terms with in order that we can be at peace when we witness it in others.. maybe i am getting off track with the example, but i mostly see life in very subjective terms.. so much of it is about our story line or narrative and how good we are or aren't, at navigating the ongoing narrative we have on life.

so in direct answer to your question, i think individuals need to explore the stories they tell themselves, and consider other alternatives.. i think not being too attached to a particular value is one of the most difficult things to do.. not being judgmental in a way that closes down our options is also part of this.. all of it is harder to do then it seems and requires a lot of work on oneself... most folks are neither interested in examining or exploring these avenues.. but i think astrology can be helpful in showing the strengths and weaknesses in us and others and helping us be more at peace with ourselves and learning how to love both ourselves and others..

that's my story or narrative for today anyway!!!
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 93

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Thank you Reply with quote

Thank you Paul, Michael and James for the excellent insights!
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