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How do the houses interact with the planets?
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: How do the houses interact with the planets? Reply with quote

In natal astrology, the planets can be seen as the various forces that are active in our being: Venus represents our ability and inclination to love, Mars our way to fight, Mercury our mental faculties, and so on. We draw on all these more or less on a daily base in order to survive and be comfortable.

The signs are endowing each of these functions with certain characteristics: Mars in Cancer will argue in an emotional way, whereas Mars in Virgo will analyze a situation and present exact facts, etc.

But what are the planets doing with the houses? Unseparably from this question: How do you define the houses in the first place?

Some say they represent the different areas of life. There is certainly a lot of truth to that. But it would be misleading to see them as external to the personality. For example, an individual with a strong emphasis on the twelfth house will not simply be destined to spend a considerable amount of their time relatively isolated (in an infirmary, jail, etc.), as some traditional astrologers would have us believe; but they will be private and reclusive as personality traits. They may even seek physical solitude of their own device. So are the houses coloring the planets in a manner not unlike the signs do?

If we think of the planets as acting in certain areas of life, this is a rather limiting view. Yes, someone with Venus in the sixth house may love their job, be popular at their working place, get along with their colleagues, etc. But it would be silly to think of Venus' influence being limited to that area. The individual in question may have romantic relationships that have nothing to do with their work, and they may love their friends, family, etc. How can this be? Did Venus bilocate to their seventh, eleventh, or fourth house?

Or does the house position signify that a planet will primarily play out in a certain field, while still covering all or most of the fields of life where this energy generally plays a role?

How can we, as astrologers, make comprehensive delineations, using the houses adequately, but avoiding to be too simplistic?

Please share your views.

Michael
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Fleur



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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting and important questions. I had been wondering about the same thing. I tend to look at houses secondarily to planets; I am sure houses are important too, but instinctively I tend to focus on the planets, and then notice in passing that the houses are important too.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi michael,

it is an interesting question! unfortunately i don't have a lot of time to respond properly....

i am thinking about yin yang and how the planets are more like the yang, with the houses more like the yin, lol.... there is a relationship - 2 way dynamic of sorts that is generally laid out in a way that suggests planets are, or aren't able to function properly depending on where they '''land''' in the system of houses definitions - which as you know - there are a multiple of..

my observations conform to the idea that planets in angles are able to express themselves most effectively and automatically... this idea of a sharp edge to houses - you are either in box 12 or box 1 - has never appealed to me, but i see the wisdom in the different attempts by astrologers to make up rules for the dilemna.. the 5 degree ptolemy rule for example states something to the effect that 5 degrees inside the 12th it still works like a 1st house planet... rules and concepts like this are fun to entertain, but they mostly fall down, unless you have planets in this type area in your own chart, whereby you can make a stronger conclusion on it..

i do like the idea of the signs on the angles and any planets in those signs as being most able to act and fulfill the nature of the planet..

rulership of houses seems like a secondary thing to me... obviously a planet in a house, or area of the chart is more direct.. rulerships idea is more like an attempt to gleam a greater understanding of how planets that are not in the angles might function... if the ruler of the house is on an angle - that would seem to strengthen the priority of that house, or houses... someone with the 12th/5th house ruler in the first for example would probably be better able to express any planets found in those houses.. however, the planets that are removed from the angles, still aren't going to function optimally... that is how i see it.. it gets complicated depending on degree distances and one must make subjective value judgments, or talk it out with the person whose chart is under consideration..

i suppose my thinking is a little bit like the planet is the seed, and the house is the ground where the seed can take root or not... lousy ground means the planet is less likely to be able to come to fruition... being on an angle is good for all intensive purposes, unless of course one finds the planet in a sign that it is not supposed to work well within - if you believe that - or the chart is diurnal and a nocturnal malefic is rising and etc. etc. the possibilities are fairly complicated the deeper you go into it.. basically planets in angles are favoured over planets that have fallen away from the angles.

here is another analogy - you are born into a family of wealth, so any talent you have, you are better able to pursue it while putting other pressing needs that someone else might have to grapple with - on hold... or the alternative - you are born into poverty, but are very talented.. it might take you longer to express that talent in a way that translates as freedom from the poverty.... not sure if that was a great analogy, lol...

jb morin uses these kinds of ideas - celestial or terrestrial forms of strength of debility... planets in signs they rule over are strong.. planets in signs they don't have an affinity for - they are weak... planets in houses off the angles - weak and on the angles - strong... mix and match and away you go, lol...
sorry for the fairly quick reply here!~

additional comment.. regarding the general signifactors - venus is love, mars is war and those basic ideas... everything is interactive.. the sign, house and aspect relationship with the planets all feed into a more nuanced or complex picture... venus in a sign and house is going to be modified and act a different way if mars is square or opposite venus position, as opposed to trine or sextile and etc. etc. etc.... one can't do any simple read of anything really, which makes astrology more of an art then a science in my book..
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alex62



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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The planet in the sign gets the characteristics of that sign, as you mentioned examples ...

Planet in the house applies these characteristics in that field of life

Planet in the house was sent from her main house to make something out there

For example, if Venus is the ruler of the first house and is located in the 9th house it means that a person wants a higher education or travel or departure from their place of birth...
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Very interesting and important questions. I had been wondering about the same thing. I tend to look at houses secondarily to planets; I am sure houses are important too, but instinctively I tend to focus on the planets, and then notice in passing that the houses are important too.


To me, the zodiac and the wheel of houses respectively are a roulette wheel, and a planet is the ball falling into one of the slots. Laughing

It is all equally important, in my book.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi michael,

it is an interesting question! unfortunately i don't have a lot of time to respond properly....


Well, I read that to mean that, had you responded properly, you would have written a dissertation...

Quote:
i am thinking about yin yang and how the planets are more like the yang, with the houses more like the yin, lol.... there is a relationship - 2 way dynamic of sorts that is generally laid out in a way that suggests planets are, or aren't able to function properly depending on where they '''land''' in the system of houses definitions - which as you know - there are a multiple of..


I like your yin/yang analogy - although I would think of the signs as the yang side, informing the planets a certain way, and the houses as yin, receiving those influences, with the planets also acting as mediators between the two. But yes, there is some kind of two-way dynamic, as the houses are also informing the planets - which is part of my investigation in this thread.

Also, the two wheels can be seen as two scales to measure a planet's position in regards of its primary and secondary motion.

Quote:
my observations conform to the idea that planets in angles are able to express themselves most effectively and automatically... this idea of a sharp edge to houses - you are either in box 12 or box 1 - has never appealed to me, but i see the wisdom in the different attempts by astrologers to make up rules for the dilemna.. the 5 degree ptolemy rule for example states something to the effect that 5 degrees inside the 12th it still works like a 1st house planet... rules and concepts like this are fun to entertain, but they mostly fall down, unless you have planets in this type area in your own chart, whereby you can make a stronger conclusion on it..

i do like the idea of the signs on the angles and any planets in those signs as being most able to act and fulfill the nature of the planet..


Your "reluctant" use of the houses makes me think of Ebertin as a major influence on your astrological thinking. The Combination of Stellar Influences skips the houses altogether, however, it does include positions on the ASC and MC.

Quote:
rulership of houses seems like a secondary thing to me... obviously a planet in a house, or area of the chart is more direct.. rulerships idea is more like an attempt to gleam a greater understanding of how planets that are not in the angles might function... if the ruler of the house is on an angle - that would seem to strengthen the priority of that house, or houses... someone with the 12th/5th house ruler in the first for example would probably be better able to express any planets found in those houses.. however, the planets that are removed from the angles, still aren't going to function optimally... that is how i see it.. it gets complicated depending on degree distances and one must make subjective value judgments, or talk it out with the person whose chart is under consideration..


That's an interesting consideration. It makes me ponder on how the house a planet falls into and the house of its ruler are connected to each other in general. How does this translate into the native's life experiences? Confused

Quote:
i suppose my thinking is a little bit like the planet is the seed, and the house is the ground where the seed can take root or not... lousy ground means the planet is less likely to be able to come to fruition... being on an angle is good for all intensive purposes, unless of course one finds the planet in a sign that it is not supposed to work well within - if you believe that - or the chart is diurnal and a nocturnal malefic is rising and etc. etc. the possibilities are fairly complicated the deeper you go into it.. basically planets in angles are favoured over planets that have fallen away from the angles.


I like that seed analogy too. Smile

Quote:
here is another analogy - you are born into a family of wealth, so any talent you have, you are better able to pursue it while putting other pressing needs that someone else might have to grapple with - on hold... or the alternative - you are born into poverty, but are very talented.. it might take you longer to express that talent in a way that translates as freedom from the poverty.... not sure if that was a great analogy, lol...

jb morin uses these kinds of ideas - celestial or terrestrial forms of strength of debility... planets in signs they rule over are strong.. planets in signs they don't have an affinity for - they are weak... planets in houses off the angles - weak and on the angles - strong... mix and match and away you go, lol...
sorry for the fairly quick reply here!~

additional comment.. regarding the general signifactors - venus is love, mars is war and those basic ideas... everything is interactive.. the sign, house and aspect relationship with the planets all feed into a more nuanced or complex picture... venus in a sign and house is going to be modified and act a different way if mars is square or opposite venus position, as opposed to trine or sextile and etc. etc. etc.... one can't do any simple read of anything really, which makes astrology more of an art then a science in my book..


It's all interlinked for sure, even in kind of a holographic way. Still, in the most basic of terms, Venus will always be Venus, and Mars will be Mars. Even if all you knew about an an individual that they have one of them on an angle, you could draw some apt conclusions about them.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
james_m wrote:
hi michael,

it is an interesting question! unfortunately i don't have a lot of time to respond properly....


Well, I read that to mean that, had you responded properly, you would have written a dissertation...

Quote:
i am thinking about yin yang and how the planets are more like the yang, with the houses more like the yin, lol.... there is a relationship - 2 way dynamic of sorts that is generally laid out in a way that suggests planets are, or aren't able to function properly depending on where they '''land''' in the system of houses definitions - which as you know - there are a multiple of..


I like your yin/yang analogy - although I would think of the signs as the yang side, informing the planets a certain way, and the houses as yin, receiving those influences, with the planets also acting as mediators between the two. But yes, there is some kind of two-way dynamic, as the houses are also informing the planets - which is part of my investigation in this thread.

Also, the two wheels can be seen as two scales to measure a planet's position in regards of its primary and secondary motion.

Quote:
my observations conform to the idea that planets in angles are able to express themselves most effectively and automatically... this idea of a sharp edge to houses - you are either in box 12 or box 1 - has never appealed to me, but i see the wisdom in the different attempts by astrologers to make up rules for the dilemna.. the 5 degree ptolemy rule for example states something to the effect that 5 degrees inside the 12th it still works like a 1st house planet... rules and concepts like this are fun to entertain, but they mostly fall down, unless you have planets in this type area in your own chart, whereby you can make a stronger conclusion on it..

i do like the idea of the signs on the angles and any planets in those signs as being most able to act and fulfill the nature of the planet..


Your "reluctant" use of the houses makes me think of Ebertin as a major influence on your astrological thinking. The Combination of Stellar Influences skips the houses altogether, however, it does include positions on the ASC and MC.

Quote:
rulership of houses seems like a secondary thing to me... obviously a planet in a house, or area of the chart is more direct.. rulerships idea is more like an attempt to gleam a greater understanding of how planets that are not in the angles might function... if the ruler of the house is on an angle - that would seem to strengthen the priority of that house, or houses... someone with the 12th/5th house ruler in the first for example would probably be better able to express any planets found in those houses.. however, the planets that are removed from the angles, still aren't going to function optimally... that is how i see it.. it gets complicated depending on degree distances and one must make subjective value judgments, or talk it out with the person whose chart is under consideration..


That's an interesting consideration. It makes me ponder on how the house a planet falls into and the house of its ruler are connected to each other in general. How does this translate into the native's life experiences? Confused

Quote:
i suppose my thinking is a little bit like the planet is the seed, and the house is the ground where the seed can take root or not... lousy ground means the planet is less likely to be able to come to fruition... being on an angle is good for all intensive purposes, unless of course one finds the planet in a sign that it is not supposed to work well within - if you believe that - or the chart is diurnal and a nocturnal malefic is rising and etc. etc. the possibilities are fairly complicated the deeper you go into it.. basically planets in angles are favoured over planets that have fallen away from the angles.


I like that seed analogy too. Smile

Quote:
here is another analogy - you are born into a family of wealth, so any talent you have, you are better able to pursue it while putting other pressing needs that someone else might have to grapple with - on hold... or the alternative - you are born into poverty, but are very talented.. it might take you longer to express that talent in a way that translates as freedom from the poverty.... not sure if that was a great analogy, lol...

jb morin uses these kinds of ideas - celestial or terrestrial forms of strength of debility... planets in signs they rule over are strong.. planets in signs they don't have an affinity for - they are weak... planets in houses off the angles - weak and on the angles - strong... mix and match and away you go, lol...
sorry for the fairly quick reply here!~

additional comment.. regarding the general signifactors - venus is love, mars is war and those basic ideas... everything is interactive.. the sign, house and aspect relationship with the planets all feed into a more nuanced or complex picture... venus in a sign and house is going to be modified and act a different way if mars is square or opposite venus position, as opposed to trine or sextile and etc. etc. etc.... one can't do any simple read of anything really, which makes astrology more of an art then a science in my book..


It's all interlinked for sure, even in kind of a holographic way. Still, in the most basic of terms, Venus will always be Venus, and Mars will be Mars. Even if all you knew about an an individual was that they have one of them on an angle, you could draw some apt conclusions about them.

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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:
james_m wrote:
hi michael,

it is an interesting question! unfortunately i don't have a lot of time to respond properly....


Well, I read that to mean that, had you responded properly, you would have written a dissertation...

Thanks for finding the time for your interesting reply.

Quote:
i am thinking about yin yang and how the planets are more like the yang, with the houses more like the yin, lol.... there is a relationship - 2 way dynamic of sorts that is generally laid out in a way that suggests planets are, or aren't able to function properly depending on where they '''land''' in the system of houses definitions - which as you know - there are a multiple of..


I like your yin/yang analogy - although I would think of the signs as the yang side, informing the planets a certain way, and the houses as yin, receiving those influences, with the planets also acting as mediators between the two. But yes, there is some kind of two-way dynamic, as the houses are also informing the planets - which is part of my investigation in this thread.

Also, the two wheels can be seen as two scales to measure a planet's position in regards of its primary and secondary motion.

Quote:
my observations conform to the idea that planets in angles are able to express themselves most effectively and automatically... this idea of a sharp edge to houses - you are either in box 12 or box 1 - has never appealed to me, but i see the wisdom in the different attempts by astrologers to make up rules for the dilemna.. the 5 degree ptolemy rule for example states something to the effect that 5 degrees inside the 12th it still works like a 1st house planet... rules and concepts like this are fun to entertain, but they mostly fall down, unless you have planets in this type area in your own chart, whereby you can make a stronger conclusion on it..

i do like the idea of the signs on the angles and any planets in those signs as being most able to act and fulfill the nature of the planet..


Your "reluctant" use of the houses makes me think of Ebertin as a major influence on your astrological thinking. The Combination of Stellar Influences skips the houses altogether, however, it does include positions on the ASC and MC.

Quote:
rulership of houses seems like a secondary thing to me... obviously a planet in a house, or area of the chart is more direct.. rulerships idea is more like an attempt to gleam a greater understanding of how planets that are not in the angles might function... if the ruler of the house is on an angle - that would seem to strengthen the priority of that house, or houses... someone with the 12th/5th house ruler in the first for example would probably be better able to express any planets found in those houses.. however, the planets that are removed from the angles, still aren't going to function optimally... that is how i see it.. it gets complicated depending on degree distances and one must make subjective value judgments, or talk it out with the person whose chart is under consideration..


That's an interesting consideration. It makes me ponder on how the house a planet falls into and the house of its ruler are connected to each other in general. How does this translate into the native's life experiences? Confused

Quote:
i suppose my thinking is a little bit like the planet is the seed, and the house is the ground where the seed can take root or not... lousy ground means the planet is less likely to be able to come to fruition... being on an angle is good for all intensive purposes, unless of course one finds the planet in a sign that it is not supposed to work well within - if you believe that - or the chart is diurnal and a nocturnal malefic is rising and etc. etc. the possibilities are fairly complicated the deeper you go into it.. basically planets in angles are favoured over planets that have fallen away from the angles.


I like that seed analogy too. Smile

Quote:
here is another analogy - you are born into a family of wealth, so any talent you have, you are better able to pursue it while putting other pressing needs that someone else might have to grapple with - on hold... or the alternative - you are born into poverty, but are very talented.. it might take you longer to express that talent in a way that translates as freedom from the poverty.... not sure if that was a great analogy, lol...

jb morin uses these kinds of ideas - celestial or terrestrial forms of strength of debility... planets in signs they rule over are strong.. planets in signs they don't have an affinity for - they are weak... planets in houses off the angles - weak and on the angles - strong... mix and match and away you go, lol...
sorry for the fairly quick reply here!~

additional comment.. regarding the general signifactors - venus is love, mars is war and those basic ideas... everything is interactive.. the sign, house and aspect relationship with the planets all feed into a more nuanced or complex picture... venus in a sign and house is going to be modified and act a different way if mars is square or opposite venus position, as opposed to trine or sextile and etc. etc. etc.... one can't do any simple read of anything really, which makes astrology more of an art then a science in my book..


It's all interlinked for sure, even in kind of a holographic way. Still, in the most basic of terms, Venus will always be Venus, and Mars will be Mars. Even if all you knew about an an individual was that they have one of them on an angle, you could draw some apt conclusions about them.

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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex62 wrote:
The planet in the sign gets the characteristics of that sign, as you mentioned examples ...

Planet in the house applies these characteristics in that field of life

Planet in the house was sent from her main house to make something out there

For example, if Venus is the ruler of the first house and is located in the 9th house it means that a person wants a higher education or travel or departure from their place of birth...


That's an interesting way to look at it. And since Venus is involved, the higher education or travel sought by the native might have to do with art.

However, there is two-way action at work. Meaning that, if the ruler of Venus in the 9th were in 4th, this coulds signify that this individual is pursuing their studies privately at home.
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:


Well, I read that to mean that, had you responded properly, you would have written a dissertation...

Your "reluctant" use of the houses makes me think of Ebertin as a major influence on your astrological thinking. The Combination of Stellar Influences skips the houses altogether, however, it does include positions on the ASC and MC.

That's an interesting consideration. It makes me ponder on how the house a planet falls into and the house of its ruler are connected to each other in general. How does this translate into the native's life experiences? Confused


thanks michael - if i keep on talking, the next thing you know i run into a dissertation! my view on the houses has been influenced by some of my early interest in cosmobiology thinking, but i have been receptive to considering this from a number of angles, lol... i enjoyed reading deb houldings book on the houses - i think it is quite good actually.. bottom line - i think the angles of the chart are most important. the division of 12 houses, as opposed to 8 seems so embedded in astrological circles, i don't try challenging it anymore, or only to point out that these ways of dividing a circle and emphasizing certain parts all fall back on the significance of the angles and what they mean..

i think astrologers can get bogged down in complications, or greater levels of abstraction.. rulerships and the place of a ruler in a particular house over another planet in that house for example.. generally i think a planet on an angle has the power to act.. it will act directly.. perhaps it will also be coloured by the houses it rules over too. i would say that is true for me. it could be a 2 way street as well, where the planet inside the house feeds the planet that rules over it.. i could see that, but that is getting complicated.

yes - venus is always going to be venus, but the sign, house and aspects it makes will modify it significantly...i guess one can speak in general-isms, but then they are only general-isms! most people want more details and the way to get that is by studying how all these astrological considerations create a bigger perspective not gotten by studying the parts individually only.. that's wordy, but i am sure you know what i mean..
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waybread



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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: How do the houses interact with the planets? Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

..... So are the houses coloring the planets in a manner not unlike the signs do?

If we think of the planets as acting in certain areas of life, this is a rather limiting view. Yes, someone with Venus in the sixth house may love their job, be popular at their working place, get along with their colleagues, etc. But it would be silly to think of Venus' influence being limited to that area. The individual in question may have romantic relationships that have nothing to do with their work, and they may love their friends, family, etc. How can this be? Did Venus bilocate to their seventh, eleventh, or fourth house?

Or does the house position signify that a planet will primarily play out in a certain field, while still covering all or most of the fields of life where this energy generally plays a role?

How can we, as astrologers, make comprehensive delineations, using the houses adequately, but avoiding to be too simplistic?

Please share your views.

Michael


I don't know about yin and yang, but obviously you'd want to look at how Venus aspects other planets, whether it's in mutual reception with another planet,whether it rules the affairs of a house of interest, and other inter-planetary relationships.

Venus is not the only consideration in romantic relationships. What's going on with the 7th house, the ruler of the 7th, or Mars in a heterosexual woman's chart? What planet rules the Venus house? Then do a tour of the chart to pick up what is going on in the houses related to family members and friends.

With particular relationships and friendships, you might want to do the synastry.

I think it still works just fine to consider houses as indicating different domains of life, or "where" a planet most makes its present felt. In sentence structure, a house works like a prepositional phrase.
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Paul
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: How do the houses interact with the planets? Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

But what are the planets doing with the houses? Unseparably from this question: How do you define the houses in the first place?


To answer the last question first, the houses are the more embodied recognition of the cosmos around a given person such that they sky is somehow brought into the mundane or earthly sphere and indeed vice versa. For me, then, the houses are a division of the mundane sphere around a given observer by chiefly dividing up some great plane and projecting it through a symbolically relevant point. We can conceptualise the sky as moving through the course of a day, much like the sky appears to move through the course of the year, and so over the course of a day we see planets move from rising to culminating to setting and so the houses are a way of contextualising this motion through its journey so that as the planets move we recognise periods of waxing and waning power. The sky contains astronomically relevant/pertinent points which act as a focus of dynamism around those points the sky appears to twist or turn like around a pivot - chiefly this is the ascendant and descendant and then the MC/IC or the point 90 above and below the horizon from those the ascendant/desc. As planets move through the sky they can be seen to either move to or away from these incredibly dynamic points - and their qualities are equally affected by their relationship to these points.

Quote:
So are the houses coloring the planets in a manner not unlike the signs do?


Not unlike, but not necessarily alike either. In greek philosophy we have the distinction between substance/essence and accident. Substance deals with an essential quality of a given thing, accidental deals with a particular state of that thing. Substance, or, essence, is describing something which is intrinsic and exists in and of itself and has a quality which exists without the need for support of any other thing, it describes the quality or nature of that thing that exists without the support or modification of anything else. A chair's substance or essence is its chairness, it's "chair" qualities. Accident on the other hand are those modifications which apply to an essential/substantial thing to modify its state or alter it or in which that substantial thing just so happens to find itself. So the substance of a chair is it's chair like quality, and the accident of that chair is that it's wooden, and that a man is sitting on it.

Signs describe planets in particular in terms of substance/essence. Houses describe planets in particular in terms of its accidental nature.

Now in addition to this, the houses individualise our existence to a particular 'coordinate' on the planet and make that experience completely unique. We can imagine that the houses are immovable in the sky, that they exist for a given point and observation position and that they do not move - instead the zodiac itself as well as all the planets move through the houses and whilst they do so, the signs and planets are coloured by the accidental nature of the houses just as what the houses signify is altered by the essential quality of the planets in those signs. In practical terms as the zodiac and planets move through the houses what those houses focus their representation of accidental qualities on changes.

So taking your example of Venus in the 6th house, Venus at this point in time can be described not in terms of its essential nature (we can't tell anything of its essential 'venus'-ness, or how it does venus-like things in typical venus-like ways) but instead the accidental qualities of where it happens to focus itself. In this case in a cadent house and so we can describe all planets as moving to or from an angle, and in this case Venus has already been angular in the 7th and has pivoted around an astronomical point, the descendant, to find itself now, having already been front and centre stage, taking a backseat and focusing her emphasis on areas of life that are not in the spotlight. The cadent houses are then ones which are more internalised, or about stepping away from limelight or about a period of rest or having its dynamism to affects its venus-like agenda move away from the outwardly evident.

In the 6th that's likely to be a particular focus on bringing venus-like qualities (as distinguished by the sign she finds herself in amongst other things) to sixth house accidental qualities such as health and those things which affect health, as well as areas of banality or places which are not novel but instead familiar etc. - it's work environments rather than career. But it would be incorrect to imagine that Venus limits herself to this focus, Venus will almost certainly rule two other signs and therefore dispose of and play host to signifying planets which are in her sign and similarly act as the symbol or significator for the areas of life where those signs happen to be passing through in terms of the accidental qualities of the houses they occupy.
She'll also likely aspect other planets and be disposed of by another planet for example. We can never isolate the chart, and I don't think anyone really (even traditional astrologers) imagine a segregated chart where planets exists solitarily from the rest of the chart.
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Last edited by Paul on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Paul
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case the above isn't clear regarding essence/substance and accident I thought I'd give a fairly well used or well known example. Keeping in mind that in the modern world we typically equate substance with the material building blocks that compose the thing, the exact opposite is true in the original meaning of the word. So a metal chair, we might tend to say that the substance is metal, because it's composed of or made of metal, but in fact the most substantial thing we can say about a metal chair is that it is useful or used as a chair, its substantial thing isn't that it's a metal chair. When we want to use a chair, we primarily want a chair, we don't primarily want metal. So chairness is the essential or substantial quality and metal is just what this particular chair happens to find itself embodied in.

Now this same philosophy is at the heart of Catholocism and substantiation. In this case the substance or essential quality of the eucharistic wafer is altered or changed into a new substance. Notice that the wafer doesn't stop being a wafer because of course the water is the material or accidental quality of the thing its substance is initially its wafer-ness or its bread-ness. Trans-substantiation suggests that it become something other than a bread-essence, in this case it becomes the body of christ.

Now when this idea is confronted by materialistic scientists they mistakenly imagine the substance is instead the accident and so they'll remark "let's put this wafer under a microscope" or if we cut it it won't bleed etc.

As another way of thinking about this imagine that we have an iron nail. It's essence or substance is its nail-ness. Now let's imagine that I magnetise this iron nail by repeatedly rubbing a powerful magnet along its length. Now the essential quality of the nail has potentially turned from one of being a nail-like thing with nail-like effects, to instead a magnet-like thing with magnet-like effects.

But let's imagine a world in which there are no iron filings for example (to return to the image we might all remember from school) and no instruments to measure or weigh or determine its magnetic quality - how would we know it's a magnet at all? The important distinction is that we cannot find it in the facts that it is composed of iron - that is its accidental quality, its essential one is that, whether we can perceive it easily or not, it is in fact a magnet.

In this analogy then the signs describe an essential quality. Mars in Cancer is operating from a different Mars-like nature than Mars in Aries. But how much efficacy or how much 'strength' of force that this mars has will not be determined by the sign. Those things will be determined by, amongst other things, the houses, precisely because the houses show accidental qualities.

In traditional astrology Mars in Cancer is 'weak' by which it is implied that Mars does not perform its mars-like nature in a typical mars-like way, and so mars does not do mars-like things in an orthodox way. There can be a connotation of not being put together very well within its own mars-like sense - we expect Mars to do Mars things in a clear orthodox Mars-like way and there is a sense that this expectation is compromised or changed or weakened or altered when Cancer. Instead, the way I read Mars in Cancer is that Mars operates in an unorthodox way which can bring stress or difficulty in accessing Mars-like qualities in a straight forward way (in the case of Cancer as its in fall) and instead will have to adapt to find or recognise its own essential approach. With that in mind, Mars in Aries is much more orthodox in its expression and much more straight forward in doing Mars-like things in typically Mars-like ways, but Mars in Cancer is forced to be more creative and to do it in more unorthodox ways. Typically Mars in another sign outside Aries or Scorpio, when found in athletes, will be doing something novel, different, creative, unorthodox with their mars. Consider Muhammad Ali who was noticeable precisely because of this innovation and how he adapted martial qualities to the game of boxing and so he floated like a butterfly and stung like a bee and he built up a lot of momentum precisely because of how novel and unorthodox his approach was. His mars is in detriment. Mars in signs of dignity, tends toward the orthodox instead.

But how much Mars there is, if you like, is not determined by the sign. We can have a highly potent and very effective and very embodied and noticeable Mars, whether its in Cancer, Aries or any other sign. This how much of Mars is a quantitative thing and is therefore an accidental quality shown by the houses. A powerfully placed Mars will be a mars increasing in accidental and therefore situational circumstances and have greater strength behind it in terms of battery power. This is normally referred to as accidental strength or accidental fortitude. Whereas sign based 'strength' is more internalised kind of togetherness and is referred to as essential dignity.
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: How do the houses interact with the planets? Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:

..... So are the houses coloring the planets in a manner not unlike the signs do?

If we think of the planets as acting in certain areas of life, this is a rather limiting view. Yes, someone with Venus in the sixth house may love their job, be popular at their working place, get along with their colleagues, etc. But it would be silly to think of Venus' influence being limited to that area. The individual in question may have romantic relationships that have nothing to do with their work, and they may love their friends, family, etc. How can this be? Did Venus bilocate to their seventh, eleventh, or fourth house?

Or does the house position signify that a planet will primarily play out in a certain field, while still covering all or most of the fields of life where this energy generally plays a role?

How can we, as astrologers, make comprehensive delineations, using the houses adequately, but avoiding to be too simplistic?

Please share your views.

Michael


I don't know about yin and yang, but obviously you'd want to look at how Venus aspects other planets, whether it's in mutual reception with another planet,whether it rules the affairs of a house of interest, and other inter-planetary relationships.

Venus is not the only consideration in romantic relationships. What's going on with the 7th house, the ruler of the 7th, or Mars in a heterosexual woman's chart? What planet rules the Venus house?


Right. We can also look at the planets as indicators of specific areas of life, including their house positions etc.

Surely, Venus isn't only about love relationships, but this is her principal domain, after all.

Quote:
Then do a tour of the chart to pick up what is going on in the houses related to family members and friends.


How does this tie in with romantic relationships? Confused

Quote:
With particular relationships and friendships, you might want to do the synastry.


This makes it obvious that we are actually relating to others based on our whole chart!

Quote:
I think it still works just fine to consider houses as indicating different domains of life, or "where" a planet most makes its present felt. In sentence structure, a house works like a prepositional phrase.


The key word being where a planets most makes its present felt.
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waybread



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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, you had mentioned family and friend relationships in paragraph 4 of your OP.

I wouldn't stick love & romance with being the primary meaning of Venus. It really depends upon what type of chart you've got and what you're asking it to do. In medical astrology Venus might indicate diabetes. In horary, its primary meaning might be simply as the significator for the querent.

In many ways, romantic love is a fairly modern notion for most people. In parts of India today, marriages are still arranged, as they were for Europeans of any substance prior to modern times.

Not in all cultures at all times, but at least today where I live, marriage is considered to be a romantic attachment, regardless of whatever else it might be. That brings in the 7th house. Fooling around or a light-hearted affair might be a 5th house matter.

Paul, I think you've got a great exposition of Plato's philosophy.

Of course today our definitions are a lot more contingent and variegated. So is Venus a woman's sense of her femininity? A heterosexual man's ideal female? In some contexts Venus might be hairdressers or sweets. Perhaps as a benefic Venus might simply enhance what it touches. These differences become "accidental" rather than essential only if we pre-determine an inviolable `a priori correct context.

On the 19th century American frontier in winter, there are stories of blizzard survivors burning the wooden furniture to stay warm. In which case "wood-ness" or "flammability" would seem like the article's essential nature.

When you wrote about transubstantiation, it made me think of something I heard once in a rabbinical lecture. In Hebrew, the word for rain is "geshem." But it is simultaneously understood as a blessing, and apparently even transubstantiation of the divine. I haven't been able to go back and validate the third meaning, but the meaning of rain as blessing from God in the Hebrew liturgy is very explicit, according to commentators.

This is understandable in the context of an ancient society living in the seasonally arid Near East, where failure of winter rains could lead to famine, and God was understood as the source of weather.

I mention this because whether the Platonic true essence of "geshem" is water falling from the sky or divine providence would be very circumstantial. It might mean one thing in secular life, and another thing in the liturgy where prayers for rain are important.

Of course, nobody accused Plato of being postmodern!
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