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techniques in nativities
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siraxi



Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: techniques in nativities Reply with quote

Has anyone experimented the techniques of translation/collection of light in nativities? Or maybe the prohibition/frustration/refranation.

I wonder if this works... Confused
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: mccann Reply with quote

I think Maurice McCann uses translations and collections in nativities.
I myself distrust of many methods McCann has developed in horary, so I have to say I donīt know.

One big problem is that nativities speaks about a whole life... If L1 and L7 are been translated by the moon, in a horary I will say "oh, how good, you will marry", even if moon is lord of 8th, for example. In a nativity is hard to me to come up with a simple interpretation for a translation.

"You will find your husband in a cemetary" is a good way to get a judicial process of malpractice Razz

I will look for any reference,ok ?
Yuzuru
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any problem using the translation of light in a nativity. In a lecture Rob Hand said that he does it, and I believe Shoener advocated its use as well.

Here's an example:

Male
Oct 15, 1939
11:16 pm EST
Marmet, West VIrginia USA
38 N 14' 43"
081 W 34' 02"

22 Cancer rises

The peson who showed me this chart used Regiomontanus cusps, but that is not important to our discussion.

I have no idea who this man is or was, or if he is still living or deceased. I don't even know his name. What I do know is that this man loved women. I mean he really loved women. But as we all know, as nice an attitude as this is, it comes with a price. Women were something of an obsession with him. Pluto fans will notice the tight square to Venus showing us his obsession with the fair sex. Traditional fans will note the Moon is conjunct his 7th cusp by antiscion and trine his MC, the house of action. Also there is a nifty mutual reception between Saturn (Lord 7) and Mars (sexual energy) the exaltation ruler of 7. Yes he loved the ladies.

The problem was the ladies didn't love him back. His attentions were, at first, appreciated, but as he became more and more overwhelming, he frightened them off. Notice all the angles are cardinal, notice, too the number of planets in cardinal signs, and finally notice the number of planets in angular houses. He was so obssessed, so overwhelming, that women tended to stay away from him (Venus in the fall of the Moon his ASC ruler). This he could not understand or tolerate, so he did what almost anyone with so much cardinal energy would do. He kidnapped a few of them. Fortunately, as the story was related to me, his activites were quickly discovered, and the women were released scared, but otherwise unhurt. He was found to be insane and dispatched to the appropriate institution, since such shenanigans are illegal in the USA regardless of one's chart.

Look at the Moon. It is the ASC ruler. Using classical planets and Ptolemaic aspects the Moon last aspected Jupiter Rx in Aries. Jupiter in Aries is a bit of a crusader, and this guy went on a crusade to land him a woman or two. Jupiter Rx means it works against him and so it did. Moon translates that light to Mars, Mars rules his fifth house of "romance," which in his twisted mind is what he was after. Mars is in Aquarius in 7 so he sought his romantic relationships in a unique way.

Minor aspect lovers may note the semi square of Venus and Mercury to the Moon. In this instance the Moon translates Venus' (women) light to Mercury, ruler of the 12th house of captivity.

Pluto folks can note the TOL from Pluto, which is associated with either sexual abuse or self-destructive behavior to Mars as well. In other words, in this chart at least, The Moon translates all sorts of light that reflects the nature of the native's character.

Finally, nothing should be inferred from the fact that this man was born three days before Lee Harvey Oswald. I doubt there was a bumper crop of psychotics born at this time. It must be a coincidence.

Tom

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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: House Reply with quote

Hello Tom
Which Houses do you use for nativities and why ?
Placidus, Alcabitius, Koch, whole sign ?
Why donīt you like Regiomontanus ?
I think I will make a poll to know the favorite system of astrologers :-)
Yuzuru
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Placidus for no particular reason other than it is a time based system, and time is what we work with. I've been told that Placidus works best for timing of events, but I couldn't back that up if I had to. I have no problem with any house system. I've used whole signs now and again, and I have a feeling they work quite well, too.

I use Regio for horary since that is what most horary astrolgoers use. Morin used Regio for nativities, and Lilly and other classicists used Alcabitius, but switched to Regio. I have no particular bias towards or against any of them, but we have to use at least one.

Tom
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: House Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
I think I will make a poll to know the favorite system of astrologers :-)
Yuzuru


As Anthony Louis wrote in his book on horary: 'Things go better with Koch.' Very Happy
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'Things go better with Koch.' Very Happy


That's just awful and you should be ashamed of yourself - heresy to boot!! Laughing
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As Anthony Louis wrote in his book on horary: 'Things go better with Koch.


I seem to recall this quote not from Anthony Louis, but from Debbie Kempton Smith who wrote the very first astrology book I ever read cover to cover: Secrets from a Stargazer's Notebook.

Tom
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! . . but was it "the real thing"?
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides, do you all have photographic memories or do you have bookshelves with books full of little stickers to remind you of a potential good quote? (Not to mention of course, all those little stickers on your computer screen! Lala Happy )
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Besides, do you all have photographic memories or do you have bookshelves with books full of little stickers to remind you of a potential good quote?


I can't remember what I had for breakfast, or to take out the garbage or to return a phone call despite the yellow sticky on my screen, but oddball facts never seem to go away.

Debbie Smith's book sticks in my mind because, it is complete. It is an excellent beginner's book although at this stage I would differ strongly with some of her ideas. I bought the book in the mid 1980s, prior to the Regulus edition of CA coming to light, and before personal computers were doing astrology calculations. She notes that the charts in the book were computed by Astro Computing Services, an outfit that used to perform a chart service for astrologers to save them the effort involved in calculating a chart by hand. That's riht, astrologers mailed the data to a computing service who, for a fee, mailed the chart back. E-mail had not yet been invented or at least was not available to the general public.

On page six she writes: "Most of the charts in this book are done in the Koch system. Remember -- things go better with Koch."

I also remember not understanding this pun since at the time it was written, the Mayor of New York City was Ed Koch who pronounced his last name as "Kotch, " not Koke. But for those who are too young to remember or didn't live in the US when the slogan "Things go better with Coke (Coca Cola)," was ubiquitous, this is the point of the pun.

Finally why would anyone use that pun in a horary book where Koch houses or any system other than Regiomontanus is rarely used?

If I tell my wife someone suggested that I might have a photographic memory, she will collapse in laughter.

Tom
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Finally why would anyone use that pun in a horary book where Koch houses or any system other than Regiomontanus is rarely used?


'Horary Astrology Plain and Simple' (Llewellyn, 1998) by Anthony Louis, a revision of his 1991 book on horary, uses Koch houses almost exclusively and is indeed the source of the quote I referenced: 'Things go better with Koch' (I have never read anything by Debbie Kempton-Smith). Anthony Louis was, at least at the time, an enthusiastic proponent of Koch houses, noting that it is:

'A system of house division developed by Dr. Walter Koch and based on dividing the quarters of the chart formed by the Ascendant and Midheaven axes into three equal time segments rather than three equal spatial segments as in the Regiomontanus system. The Koch method, also called the birth place system, is similar to an earlier system of Alcabitius...in my book I use Koch houses which I also favor for natal work...if you stick to a house cusp system that you like or feel at home with, then the universe will see to it that you ask or receive horary questions at a time suitable for your house system.'

Kevin Burk, another (more or less) traditional astrologer, also advocates Koch house cusps in his book 'Astrology: Understanding the Birth Chart' (Llewellyn, 2001).

Koch is not so heretical if you consider that it is kind of like Alcabitius in reverse. Laughing
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As my quote states I was referring to something that was uncommon (I used the word "rarely") rather than "heretical." Regiomontanus is the most widely used system for horary and Louis, at the time of the writing of his book, was one of the few horary astrologers using Koch. He may still use it for all I know, but he also used Regio (see pages 5 & 12).

I checked the book, but obviously could not read it in its entirety before writing what I did. The index lists three pages under the topic "house systems," pages 5, 12, and 105. The quote does not appear on any of those pages; it must be elsewhere.

Tom
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
As my quote states I was referring to something that was uncommon (I used the word "rarely") rather than "heretical." Regiomontanus is the most widely used system for horary and Louis, at the time of the writing of his book, was one of the few horary astrologers using Koch. He may still use it for all I know, but he also used Regio (see pages 5 & 12).


Sungem stated it was 'heresy to boot' and of course that is so true! Laughing

I do not have the Louis book on hand at the moment but I will look up the reference when I locate it. March and McEvers used Koch in their horary work (as does Kevin Burk and a few others) but of course you are right, Regiomontanus is traditional. I use the outer planets in natal work, but never in horary, though apparently there are some modern astrologers who do (I think it started with Marc Jones' book on horary). In any event there must be a term to describe the use of traditional astrology plus the Koch system and Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in natal work -- someone suggested it be called 'Georgian astrology' but I doubt that would go over very well! Shocked
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tom:I can't remember what I had for breakfast, or to take out the garbage or to return a phone call despite the yellow sticky on my screen,

Well - that's easy - they're not astrology, are they? Razz
I have a lawyer friend with a 'selective' photographic memory. He can quote books and music commentary references but nothing to do with law! Has to look them all up! Personally I have trouble with the sticky reminders on my screen because of the amount of whiteout Shocked

I haven't looked at Debbi Kempton Smith's book in years. All my shelves now have 2 rows of books each, but I do know where everything is. Smile
So I hauled her out and yes, it's a 1982 edition, so she probably predates Anthony Louis.

How well I remember doing those calculations by hand! Or rather I don't - it is something I've promised myself to review one of these days. So much to read - so little time! For someone, as I've said before, who has a problem adding the price of 2 icecreams together it was a wonder I stayed with astrology through that process! It isn't that I can't do it when shown - I think boredom sets in, we Geminis much prefer words.
Quote:
Finally why would anyone use that pun in a horary book where Koch houses or any system other than Regiomontanus is rarely used?

This surprised me too when I started reading Anthony Louis' book, but he states on p123 (you looked at the index Tom, I looked at the contents) . . .

The horary chart reflects how our minds grapple with the problem, and no two people think alike. My advice to the beginning horary astrologer is to use the house system he or she is most comfortable with. Each astrologer must try different techniques to develop a method of interpretation that is reliable in his or her own hands.

He then does a chart example using both Koch and Regio which I won't go into since you both have the book.

See also: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html

Quote:
Andrew: Koch is not so heretical if you consider that it is kind of like Alcabitius in reverse.


...and then there are those of us who simply use what we are taught having been given a reasonable explanation for doing so by an experienced teacher. It seems the way to go when you're learning. Then of course when curiosity takes hold, there are so many other queries competing for attention. I seem to remember something about reliability at extreme latitudes being one of those reasons for using Placidus. Anything to ensure we don't fall off the edge of the world 'downunder' Smile

Curious though that Louis must have carried over his natal house preference to horary instead of doing what most of us seem to - i.e. use our preferred house system for nativities and switch to Regio for horary. However I think he has this bit right ...

Quote:
Andrew quoting Louis: ...if you stick to a house cusp system that you like or feel at home with, then the universe will see to it that you ask or receive horary questions at a time suitable for your house system.'


The Universe at work? Smile Absolutely!

Quote:
Andrew: In any event there must be a term to describe the use of traditional astrology plus the Koch system and Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in natal work --


Geogian? Go to it! Let us know how you got on when you get out Lala Happy
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