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Significators of dream and sleep

 
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Significators of dream and sleep Reply with quote

I'd be grateful for any pointers to traditional sources that assign the significations of dream and/or sleep to a specific planet, house, lot, etc. I know that the 3rd and 9th places are associated with prophecy and the like in Hellenistic sources, but do they also signify non-prophetic dreams? Indian sources sometimes assign sleep to the 12th, and presumably there would have been a Hellenistic precedent for that, but I can't remember actually seeing one.
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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin,

There is a Lot of Dreams (ὄνειρος) listed in Olympiodorus' commentary on Paul (p110 of Greenbaum's translation). It is a Saturn to Mercury lot, but there is no delineation of it there. I don't recall seeing anything else in the sources I have read. I always assumed that the Indians assigning sleep to the 12th was an innovation. As you note, the 9th is usually associated with dreams, but I took those to be visions or otherwise prophetic in nature as opposed to regular dreams.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin

Several ancient sources have dreams being the ninth house, and dream interpreters being related in some way to Mercury and sometimes Saturn (the air triplicity?). And sometimes you see things like 'good dreams' being associated with Venus or Jupiter. Sometimes the Sun and Moon are related to these things as well.
Dreams in general are usually assigned to the 9th but there often seems to be a focus on visions or divination in association with those dreams, I suspect this association of dreams to the 9th derives ultimately from dreams as being seen as related in some way to visions and communications from god - with the ninth being the house of god. Occasionally you will see some indication of the 3rd house for dreams but less focus on some greater meaning of the dream or whether what the dream said will come true like you do with the ninth. At least that's my understanding of it anyway.


Some reference in no particular order

Paulus, 24. On the Tabular Expression of the Twelve Places
(translated by Schmidt)
Quote:
The ninth zoidion from the Horoskopus gives signs for the determination that concerns gods, dreams, and living abroad.
...
When the Sun has dealt with the star of Hermes there, they will make mantics, dream interpreters, astrologers, augurs, and altogether those who participate in the mysteries


Hephaistio, III: On Inceptions (by Eduardo Gramaglia, Ben Dykes)
23: On effective hours and dreams
Quote:
As regards the effective hours for everything put to one's hands, epsecially that which is prophetic, it is necessary to observe the ruler of the God [ie the 9th], aiming at not having it fall in the place of Bad Spirit [ie the 12th] nor on the setting [the 7th], nor opposing the Moon or her ruler...


He then goes on in the next section to list days when dreams are good or bad according to the Egyptians, though I don't really follow it, and it seems linked to the part of fortune and seems linked to the idea of fortune generally.

Valens, Book 1, by Riley
Quote:
Mercury indicates education, letters, disputation... In its own character it makes temple builders, modelers, sculptors...prophets, diviners, augurs, dream interpreters, braiders, weavers..


William Lilly, Book 1
Quote:
The Ninth House
By this house we give judgement of voyages or long journies beyond seas, or religious men, or clergy of any kinde, whether bishiops or inferior ministers, dreams, visions, forraign countries, of books...


Book II
Quote:
The ninth House, and those questions properly belonging to it
Long Journeys, Religion, Pilgrimige, Dreams etc.
...
LXVII, Of Dreams whether they signifie anything or not
.... What the effect of his dreames shall be? Behold the 9th house, and give it to signify the dreame


Book III
Quote:
Jupiter or Venus in the 9th, potent and not afflicted, shewes usually dreames having corresponding effects, and not vaine. The infortunes there, shew scurvey dreames and wholly deceitful: if afflicted they show ambiguous dreames, sometimes proving true, at other times false


Firmicus Maternus, Book III
Saturn
Quote:
Saturn in the ninth house will make famous magicians, renowned philosophers, or temple priests noted for their reputation for magic. According to the nature of the signs he also makes seers, diviners and astrologers. These are always outstanding in their responses. Some carry on the rites of temples or are in charge of rituals. Sometimes they become long-haired philosophers or interpreters of dreams.


Jupiter
Quote:
Jupiter in this house house [the ninth] by night makes dreamers of false dreams who often tell lies about the gods


Venus
Quote:
[assumed position by day] Constant attacks by some demon are indicated by Venus in the ninth house. The natives go around sordid and unkempt or stay in temples prophesying, claiming they are announcing the will of the gods. Often they are interpreters of dreams. These effects are stronger if Saturn is in aspect. In this house by night Venus makes holy men, worshippers of the gods...


Mercury and the Sun
Quote:
In the third house they produce haruspices, dream interpreters, physicians, priests, augurs, astronomers, astrologers..


Works of Sahl and MashaAllah, by Ben Dykes
Sahl, Introductions
2: A chapter on the substances of the twelve signs and what every sign signifies
Quote:
The third domicile is not wholly cadent from the Ascendant. It signifies brothers and sisters, relatives and kin, and their condition; also patience and counsels, faith and religion, and contnetions in sects; letters, legations also, and legates; and foreign travel and dreams.
...
The ninth domicile is cadent from the Ascendant. And it signifies foreign travels and journeys and the culture of the deity, and all houses of religion; philosophy and the foresight of all matters; the wisdom of the stars, and divinations; letters and legates and legations, or rumours; dreams; faith; divine wisdom....


Sahl, On Questions
Quote:
A question of visions or dream
The understanding of this is that you should always consider the ninth sign [sahl then describes what the dream itself actually was]


MashaAllah, What the planets signify in the 12 domiciles of the circle
Quote:
...
And in the ninth, [venus signifies] foreign travel and change in the house of religion, and divine culture, and religion and true dreams
...
And in the ningth [jupiter signifies] foreign journey, and the honesty of faith, and the expounding of dreams, and the truth of dreams, if God wills...And if he wanted to know the interpretation of the dream, look to see from which of the planets Jupiter is separated, or which is separated from him: because the interpretation of his dream will be according to the nature of the planet
...
And in the ninth [mars signifies]...and multitude of divisions and lying of dreams.


Notice how Sahl etc. seems to be describing the actual content of the dream when he gives significations of it - it's not necessarily on interpreting if it's true or not. It's possible this is true for other places where dream interpretation is mentioned - interpreting almost more psychologically than from divination.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful! Thanks very much, both of you. I have read all those sources, but never paid much attention to this particular topic before.

The background is that I was looking at the annual revolution of someone who has unexpectedly taken a sudden interest in the world of lucid dreaming, following a spontaneous experience in that direction. Venus as ruler of the year is exalted in the (quadrant-house) 3rd, which I thought might possibly be relevant. I now note that Saturn is also trining natal Venus quite closely. Interesting -- thanks again!
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prashna Marg vol 2 - Chapter 31 sl 1

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