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Chart Signatures for Lying and Deception?
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, Evangeline Adams is listed under Fraud/ Liar in Astrodatabank because she lied about her age in Census data !!

Gadbury is another one .
Joe Biden too.

Now, for Saints to show up please Wink
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
Interesting, Evangeline Adams is listed under Fraud/ Liar in Astrodatabank because she lied about her age in Census data !!

Gadbury is another one .
Joe Biden too.

Now, for Saints to show up please Wink

Well of course if you include any indiscretion its going to take things to
reductio ad absurdum. I was looking more for people who develop a habitual character pattern of lying and deceiving others. In some instances they fabricate major details about their lives or quite fundamental facts or go out of their way to mislead and deceive.

Frankly, if we start including politicians this list could get quite long....Wink

I do have an interesting example from outside that sphere closer to our own. But I am busy preparing for a conference this weekend so that will need to wait until next week...

Mark
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to see the politicians excluded but here is one I found earlier which fits everything mentioned in this thread( except of course an exalted Jupiter).

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Aitken,_Jonathan
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gerhartsreiter,_Christian
Mark


i would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example..

pankajdubey's latest example has a moon in the 8th... something about playing fast and loose with others resources / assets, seems to be a marked characteristic of the con man, liar, thief...
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pakajdubey wrote:
Quote:
Sorry to see the politicians excluded but here is one I found earlier which fits everything mentioned in this thread( except of course an exalted Jupiter).

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Aitken,_Jonathan


That was my attempt at humour Pankajdubey! Actually being British Jonathan Aitken did come to mind. I must study that when I have more time!

Politicians are a rich mine of liars and deceivers.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
i
Quote:
would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example.

pankajdubey's latest example has a moon in the 8th... something about playing fast and loose with others resources / assets, seems to be a marked characteristic of the con man, liar, thief...


I can see where you are coming from in terms of the 8th having that role in chart like Madoff where there is effectively theft of other's money. But its not intrinsically seen as a traditional indicator of lies and deception is it? I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile. I dont want to typecast large chunks of the population but Mercury in a Mars ruled signs seems to tick one potential signature too. It seems to crop up in a lot of the charts I have examined. Although we obviously need more chart indicators to form a useful testimony.

Mark
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
.... I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile.


there won't be much left in traditional astrology with all the aspects included. Do you mean the human species is cunning intrinsically, and the saints get the inconjunct Very Happy

A lot of physicist and engineers will have this combination- someone closer
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Haldane,_John_Scott

I think it is the ones that have exalted planets rise in station and get visible , good or bad.
BTW many Nobel laureates do have the Mercury -Mars inconjunct - even the Physicists.

Valens:
Mercury makes weight lifters and mimes, those making their livelihood with displays of skill, deception, gambling, or sleight of hand. It also rules those skilled interpreters of the heavens, those who by using pleasure or winning charm, earn fame for their amazing feats—all for the sake of gain.

Mars brings violent murders, slashings and bloodshed, attacks of fever, ulceration, boils, burns, chains, torture, masculinity, false oaths, wandering, embassies under difficult circumstances, actions involving fire or iron, craftwork, masonry.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
there won't be much left in traditional astrology with all the aspects included. Do you mean the human species is cunning intrinsically, and the saints get the inconjunct Very Happy


I think I did make it clear this was only one potential signature. I have consistently said in this thread you need several testimony to get somewhere. And even then assigning ethics to someone from a just a chart is a controversial business!

Thanks for the Valens reference. A useful point to always keep in mind that the planets have multiple associations. That is why delineation can be so tricky at times. Confused

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

I can see where you are coming from in terms of the 8th having that role in chart like Madoff where there is effectively theft of other's money. But its not intrinsically seen as a traditional indicator of lies and deception is it?
Mark


hi mark,

no to your question from what i recall of the books i have read..

i think you are on the right track with the mercury/mars connections.. as you note in your last comment to pankajdubey - delineation can be so tricky at times - indeed!

perhaps an interesting question might be 'where does one find ethical or moral character in a chart?' if there was a way to know that was somehow missing or absent, it might help pave the way for knowing who was more likely to use lying or deceit as a tactic to further there situation... going back to madoff - interestingly he has jupiter on the descendant square venus which in turn squares the ascendant axis... and, he has saturn in aries in the 8th..

if i was to try to answer my own question, i think it would hinge on the position of jupiter and saturn to some extent.. how do these planets function in the chart and are they likely to put the brakes on other chart factors or not? in the case of madoffs chart, aside from the mercury in aries - ruled by mars, he has mars in gemini ruled by mercury... mutual reception so far as the literature goes.. you might consider exploring that set up as well - mars ruled by mercury.. he seems to show up as witnessed in this and the gacy example i provided much earlier in the thread, as does jupiter on the descendant..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Konrad wrote:
One of the most obvious configurations is Mars in harsh aspect with Mercury. Joseph Goebbels is a prime example. Though I will add that either Mercury or Mars have to rule something important in the chart such as Fortune, Spirit or the ASC otherwise everyone born with the aspect would be deceitful.

Martin wrote:
I see that Valens mentions lies (pseusmata) in his list of significations for Mars. I have certainly seen it in practice, such as when an undignified Mars is rising in a nativity.

Mark wrote:
I did a quick google check on the most famous frauds and liars.

I quickly came up with this chart which seems to nail so many signatures. And perhaps that is really the point. Finding several testimonies...
https//www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gerhartsreiter,_Christian

My analysis below is obviously based on the tropical zodiac but I will be interested in sidereal takes on this chart too.
(...)
7 Mercury on South Node
8 Mercury in applying trine to Mars
(...)
The themes of a debilitated Mercury and Mars are very prominent here. Mars is the night triplicity ruler of his sect light indicating that Mars in fall will be a major player in his later life.
(...)
I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile.

If we add Ketu (Moon's south node) to a Mercury-Mars combination we are seeing a suggested signature for fraud and deception. I have just seen a televised biography of Bernie Madoff who operated the largest investor fraud ever committed by a single person, a massive Ponzi scheme. He also carried on secret extra marital affairs.

We do have a timed birth chart for Bernie as well as for Christian Gerhartsrseiter. Another very famous con artist is Frank Abagnale a check forger who masqueraded as at least eight different identities including an airline pilot, physician and lawyer. Frank’s story was made into an award winning movie, “Catch Me If You Can,” and starred Leo Di Caprio. We don’t have a timed chart for Frank, but it would be interesting if Leo were prominent in his timed chart.

If we study these three birth charts together, certain patterns stand out if we use the overlap of navamsa (9th harmonic) planets, critical to the analysis of charts in India. I don’t think we can get a total grasp of the potential for deception without the overlapping navamsa planets. As always, I use the sidereal zodiac with the Krishnamurti ayanamsa.





In Christian’s chart Mercury is conjunct Ketu and the Sun at the top of the chart (nonagesimal, zenith point) and (as Mark pointed out) trine Mars. Sidereal Taurus rises in this chart, and ascendant lord Venus is with Ketu in the navamsa chart, both conjunct natal Sun and Mercury in the natal 10th sign. Navamsa planets act like conjunctions to natal planets if the orbs are fairly close. So we have this line-up in Christian’s chart in the 10th sign: Ketu-Venus (asc lord)-Sun-Mercury-Ketu trine Mars (7th and 12th lord).

Then if we take Bernie Madoff’s chart, he also has Ketu at the zenith point with Venus and Mars. Mercury comes into the equation as it crosses to this triple conjunction from the navamsa chart. Bernie has a double Mars-Mercury contact as navamsa Mars conjoins natal Mercury-Moon-Sun. Pluto, Rahu and the Sun from the navamsa cross to Neptune in the 2nd house (equal cusps at center of houses). In Bernie’s chart Mercury is lord of the 11th house of gain, and the 2nd house of financial resources. Bernie has Leo rising in both the tropical and sidereal zodiacs with Regulus on the ascendant. He has earned the title of ‘King of Fraud.’

Both Christian and Bernie have a Mars-Moon-Sun conjunction, Christian in the navamsa chart in Sagittarius (8th natal house) and Bernie has navamsa Mars conjunct natal Moon and Sun in Aries in the 9th.

An interesting note about both these chart is that the Sun is strong in the sidereal zodiac, in Aries for Bernie in the 9th house and in the 10th house for Christian. To pull off massive deception and to be trusted and respected by others, one has to project a great deal of confidence and charm, and possess genuine ‘chutzpah.’ Valens gives wealth to Aries, and the old texts give confidence and authority to Aries and the Sun.



If we turn to Frank Abagnale’s untimed birth chart, he has a Mercury-Sun-Rahu (north node) conjuction in Aries, and from the navamsa Ketu crosses to this conjunction. Mars doesn’t aspect this conjunction, but navamsa Mercury crosses to Frank’s natal Mars-Saturn-Pluto. After his arrest, Frank went on to work with the government, helping the FBI and banks to track down fraud.

All three of these men were consummate actors, helped along by a dare devil personal self confidence. The Gauquelins isolated Jupiter as the planet of actors. Frank has the natal Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Sagittarius. Bernie has Jupiter on the descendant squaring Ketu-Venus-Mars at the zenith. Christian’s navamsa Jupiter crosses to the natal MC.

From the sidereal point of view, rather than emphasizing planets in weak signs, the picture is that planets strongly placed allowed others to trust these men as they projected charm and confidence. In Jyotish Ketu can be the great deceiver, placing a veil of illusion over the truth, much like Neptune is believed to do in western astrology.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernie Madoff will go down in history as one of the greatest con artists of all time. He operated his Ponzi scheme for decades. His sidereal sign positions are interesting as they are so positive:

Sun is exalted in natal Aries and in its own sign Leo in the navamsa chart.
Mars is in its own sign of Aries in the navamsa chart.
Venus (10th lord) which is in partile square to the ascendant is in its own sign (Taurus) and triplicity.

So rather than making a moral judgement these positions allowed Bernie Madoff to have a very successful (but fraudulent) life and career for decades. Without Ketu we wouldn't be able to see the possibility of deception and fraud. It's interesting that from the navamsa Ketu conjoins natal Jupiter on the descendant (partnerships and exchanges with others), Jupiter being the planet of truth and morality.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
A lot of physicist and engineers will have this combination- someone closer
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Haldane,_John_Scott

I think it is the ones that have exalted planets rise in station and get visible , good or bad.
BTW many Nobel laureates do have the Mercury -Mars inconjunct - even the Physicists.

For contrast to the three criminal charts above, here is the chart of John Scott Haldane referenced by Pankaj. (Scottish writer, scientist, philosopher and physiologist.)



Again we have an exalted Sun at the top of the chart which receives the trine of Mars in Sagittarius, but also the square of Saturn above the ascendant. Mercury does receive the square of Mars from Sagittarius, but Mars itself receives the partile opposition of Jupiter which no doubt places Mars on the high road.

From the navamsa Mercury stands alone in its own triplicity on the natal 7th cusp. There is no contact of Ketu with either Mercury or Mars in natal or navamsa charts. So the exalted Sun trine Mars can indicate a successful career without the duplicity of Ketu.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Mark invited sidereal comments, I just realized that this is the Traditional forum. If Tom is still in charge, he may delete all my posts. If so (Tom), please give me the opportunity to move my posts to the sidereal forum. Thank you.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In A History of Horoscopic Astrology (pp. 12-13) James Holden mentions that the early decans were subdivided into thirds of 3°20' which could quite possibly be the origin of the Hindu navamsas. I know I've seen 'the ninths' mentioned in early western texts, but don't have time to check for references. Holden notes that the 3°20' subdivisions were called in Greek leitourgoi 'ministers' and in Latin munifices 'duty-officers.' So the ninths aren't a foreign entry into traditional astrology although we lack examples of how they might have been used. The term navamsa however is Indian.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
Although Mark invited sidereal comments, I just realized that this is the Traditional forum. If Tom is still in charge, he may delete all my posts.


I dont moderate on this forum and its ultimately not my call what stays up here or gets removed. Tom remains the moderator here so he is at liberty to make his own judgement on the presence of sidereal charts here. I had hoped to let a few sidereal comments in looking at Christian Gerhartsrseiter chart effectively under the radar. Thats kind of how the mundane forum goes where all analysis is welcome. But I accept the traditional forum is a very different astrological context. Your numerous posts using sidereal charts do seem in direct conflict with the forum line Tom has repeated several times here.

Thank you for the chart data on Frank Abagnale. That was new to me.

For me personally the really awkward thing about your posts is not the siderealism but the Jyotish content. Does Jyotish come within the bounds of traditional astrology? I had always thought that there was a kind of consensus here that by 'traditional and ancient' we meant for want of a better word the western tradition with incorporates the astrology of West Asia and Europe as opposed to the eastern tradition found in India? So I assumed this forum existed to discuss hellenistic, Perso-Arabic and European astrological tradition. We do after all have a forum dedicated to Indian astrology. And there are countless others all over the internet. I fear allowing this forum to include Jyotish techniques will dilute the focus here. This is not to deny the fact that Perso-Arabic astrology had an influence on Indian astrology in Tajika. So there is a clear overlap in that area.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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