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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Chart Signatures for Lying and Deception?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Chart Signatures for Lying and Deception? Reply with quote

Since Martin got such a spectacular response to his recent question on dreams here I was hoping members could help me out on something I have been looking at in some charts recently. I was wondering about the traditional chart indicators are for deception or lying on a habitual basis? Its the kind of thing modern astrologers immediately link to Neptune but what might the traditional chart indicators be?

I am thinking it may involve an ill dignified Mercury ie communication or Jupiter ie truth/integrity. Or might the 3rd house and its ruler be a factor? Or should we be looking for Mercury links to an ill dignified, and/or out of sect malefic?

Thanks

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

i seem to recall reading in rhuetoris, or maybe it was firmicus matheas that mercury is mostly the culprit.. i will have to go look for a reference though... i don't recall jupiter being implicated, but mars might have been.. i know the hard aspects with mercury and mars was given an association with a few nasty topics..

additional note... i seem to recall mercury setting as a problem.. i remember looking at wayne gacy's chart which as i recall had the right set up for what conformed to the trad outlook on your enquiry... in looking at his chart - mercury in pisces - square the ascendant axis, with mars in gemini on the descendant.. mars square mercury..

i will look in the books to see a reference..

one example from rhetorius

james h. holden trans. page 145
mars and mercury angular in leo (gwbush has part of the set up but incomplete), without jupiter and venus and the sun, make bold persons, characteristically those who are thinking about shedding blood for nothing, or cheats, perjurers, sacrilegious persons, forgers and treacherous persons..

page 162 - why he was a traitor...
see mercury prevailing over mars by square. for one of the wise men says: and if now there is a four-sided figure ( square aspect) and mercury holds the upper part ( as it does in gacy's and ehud baraks chart- david addington has the set up but only by sign - see george soros, hilary clin and Anwar al-Awlaki for reverse examples) and the worst planet mars dwells at the humblest place, dangerously it denotes villains or those wanting to be robbers and to make losses for others, migrating from one place to another and changing allegiance from one man to another man, or another time we also fine the rest: they will fall upon traitors with their own mischief, and they will strip them bare of their property..

there may be other examples in this book.. i am not finding them quickly... i do recall fm's book had these kinds of ideas articulated somewhat in a similar manner.. the other possible source to i neglected to think of is ptolemy's tetrabiblios... i am sure there is probably something in that book to reference your question as well..

it seems only fitting to be talking of mercury/ mars contacts on a day that it appears mercury and mars are conjunct... merc retro, non the less , but sticking around in close quarters with each other for the time being... i think the conjunction is a lot less problematic then the square...

mars with moon in the 3rd gets a bad rap - page 62 same book, which is lessened if mars is in his own sign or face..

page 54 - mercury rising in a day chart - if aspected by mars by opp, square or partile conjunction - thrice evil.. trine aspect has to be judged independently..

this book is filled with stuff along these lines!

ps - i put my posts below all into this message for simplicity... please delete the 2 post below... thanks..


Last edited by james_m on Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this has been fun, reopening these books i hadn't looked at in a few years...
fm book - j r bram translation 1975
page 191 - mars in square to mercury... i can quote it to you if you'd like and you don't have the book.. here, i will do it anyway for anyone else interested..

" 8. if mars and mercury are in square aspect and mars hold the superior part of the right square, this indicates a fearful outcome to all evils.. it weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, make him the victim of evil rumors, and stirs up dreadful dangers of accusation, so that all these difficulties end in prison... these evils grow stronger in a diurnal chart but are lessened in a nocturnal.
9. but if mercury holds the superior position and the right side, he makes the natives wicked and malicious, displaying poisonous desires, carrying on all kinds of fraud, and greedily devouring the goods of others.. they pass from one victim to another, always rapaciously seeking what they can get; eventually they are made destitute by their wicked tricks and clever frauds and in the end lose all their possessions.."

wonder if anyone at skyscript has this aspect and would like to share? LOLOL...

page 196 "3.mars and mercury in opposition idicate the greatest calamities. either the natives will be apprehended for the crime of forging documents, or they are associated in evil knowledge with criminals, or they live a life of crime with wrong-doers and poisoners. or they may be dragged to public judgment through pressure of debts.. "

page 201 mars in conjunction.

"7. if the sun hides mars and mercury with his orb and they are all together on one of the angles and in aspect to the moon on another angle, this will produce natives with criminal tendencies, involved in every wrongdoing; their speech is always stained with falsehood. their criminal activities will be compared to the deeds of bandits; they also forge documents.."

we almost get this set up in a few days, but sun is not hiding both mercury and mars.. sun is about 13-14 degrees ahead of mars/mercury conjunction with moon in opposition...

mark - i am casually doing a quick read here.. i am looking for any role the other planets might play - in particular jupiter - but not seeing it mentioned any so far..
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

One of the most obvious configurations is Mars in harsh aspect with Mercury. Joseph Goebbels is a prime example. Though I will add that either Mercury or Mars have to rule something important in the chart such as Fortune, Spirit or the ASC otherwise everyone born with the aspect would be deceitful. I think this is the difference between being a liar and being lied to.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konrad - take a look at wayne gacys chart.. i am curious how wide of a net you want to throw for the rulership thing?

i found one person who might qualify for the description i shared above here "james h. holden trans. page 145
mars and mercury angular in leo without jupiter and venus and the sun, make bold persons, characteristically those who are thinking about shedding blood for nothing, or cheats, perjurers, sacrilegious persons, forgers and treacherous persons.. "

turns out the new kid who is running affairs in saudi arabia has the set up.. unfortunately we don't have a specific time for him, but mercury/mars conjoins in leo minus any benefics, while saturn squares onto the conjunction.. day chart - aug 31st 1985 jeddah, saudi arabia..

we can thank him for the ongoing war on yemen - along with a few other socio/psycho paths in other supporting countries...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_bin_Salman
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Paul
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark

What an interesting question, I actually can't think of any one house or planet etc. that would show lies or dishonesty in the same way as we did with dreams.

Certainly in horary things are not so straight forward - peregrine mercury or any significator with the malefics or malefics with the significator and so on could all show a dishonest person. Where fixed signs and benefics tend to show stability or honesty as might a received planet by a benefic.

In many ways this is a much tougher question. I'm interested in hearing what others find.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recall, and this seems to be corroborated by the various quotations given by James, Mars is the planet most often associated with mendacity, just as Jupiter is associated with truthfulness. I'm fairly sure that I have seen these interpretations even when there is no association with Mercury. Looking it up now, I see that Valens mentions lies (pseusmata) in his list of significations for Mars. I have certainly seen it in practice, such as when an undignified Mars is rising in a nativity.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee Lehman- Book of Rulerships my go to book .

Lying :
Moon - Al Biruni
Mercury- Al Biruni
Saturn - Gadbury

Liars :

Saturn - Lilly

Deceit - 6th house

Deceitful:
Merc - Lilly
Saturn- many..

Gemini and Scorpio

Deceivers : Merc, Mars , Saturn

More specifically- deception in matters of faith - Saturn in 3rd house - Gadbury.

Unless , of course , all the above are lying Very Happy because mercury and it’s signs along with Scorpio are signifactors of astrologers too .
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol pank.. i wish al biruni would make up his mind! moon or mercury - it can't be both!
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
lol pank.. i wish al biruni would make up his mind! moon or mercury - it can't be both!

Very Happy
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Al-Biruni,_Abdul

A combust mercury rising in Virgo and Moon in Scorpio.
He was being too hard on himself.

Moreover, there is a difference between lying and deception. A wolf in a sheep's clothing is a deception, so is bleating rather than howling - but if nodding at question if it is a sheep - is blatant lying.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for all your input. Much appreciated. Especially James for digging up all those traditional references! Thumbs up

I did a quick google check on the most famous frauds and liars.

I quickly came up with this chart which seems to nail so many signatures. And perhaps that is really the point. Finding several testimonies. Actually it was completely new to me but a nice change from the usual suspects like Nixon, Clinton, Goebbels etc.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gerhartsreiter,_Christian

My analysis below is obviously based on the tropical zodiac but I will be interested in sidereal takes on this chart too.

1 Gemini rising-Mercury ASC ruler
2 Mercury in fall
3 Mercury in detriment
4 Mercury peregrine
5 Mercury Rx
6 Mercury combust
7 Mercury on South Node
8 Mercury in applying trine to Mars
9 Mars in fall
10 Mars out of sect malefic
11 ASC in dwad of Scorpio
12 Mercury in dwad of Aries
13 Sect light Sun in Pisces disposited by Jupiter in sign of fall
14 Jupiter disposited by Saturn in its domicile.
15 Venus in Aries in detriment disposited by Mars

The themes of a debilitated Mercury and Mars are very prominent here. Mars is the night triplicity ruler of his sect light indicating that Mars in fall will be a major player in his later life.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mercury-Mars aspect is actually applying, as Mercury is retrograde. Mars is rising (well, in the quadrant/equal first house) while out of sect and lacking in dignity (in either zodiac). Aldebaran is about to rise, too, underscoring the importance of Mars.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
The Mercury-Mars aspect is actually applying, as Mercury is retrograde.


Yes I did see that and edited my post. Presumably while you were posting! I find this a really rich, interesting chart. So many intriguing features. Thanks for the additional analysis.

Using Valens outlook Mars, Mercury and the Sun have added power as they are 'advancing' towards the angles.

Mark
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also add that Mercury is one of the candidates for being the kurios according to Porphyry since it is in the 10th sign and ruling the bounds of the PNL. In the sidereal zodiac, it is without the ray of either benefic so is bound to misbehave when also considering that it is retrograde and combust.
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the modern version of astrology, Neptune Mercury aspects are indicative of lie (s) or liar.

b.r
Wolfgang
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