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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Chart Signatures for Lying and Deception?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1142
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply, Mark. Actually the technique I used (the overlapping of 9th harmonic planets to natal planets) isn't how the navamsa is traditionally used in India. I discovered this application of the 9th harmonic through years of study and experimentation. So the only real reference to Jyotish is the word 'navamsa' and also the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Oh, and 'Ketu' which is much easier to type than 'Moon's south node.'

Recently I've noted however, that this technique has appeared here and there in contemporary Indian sources. Who is to say that this technique might not be applicable to Traditional Astrology since the 9ths have been known since earliest horoscopic astrology?

I wouldn't have posted here if I'd noticed that this was the Traditional forum. I've moved my posts to the sidereal forum, so Tom is at liberty to delete my posts. Here is the link to the Lies and Deception topic on that forum: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9779
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've continued this topic on the sidereal forum where the chart of Jonathan Aitken has been added to the discussion. His birth chart conforms to the fraud pattern of the other three charts.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9779

EDIT 8 SEPTEMBER 2017: Notes on additional planetary patterns in the four charts have been posted on the link above.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 103
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

James. M wrote:

Quote:
i would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example..


I have Saturn in 8 (Pisces) and am not prone to lying/decepetion (so says me, anyway Cool ).

Bernie Madoff's Saturn is unaspected and in its fall. (tropical)


Cheers.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi moonbright!

i am sorry i missed your post, but i will just emphasize what i believe mark said further up the thread.. no one factor is going to cover anything.. there would have to be more then just one factor like saturn in 8th for example... and yes - bernie madoff has saturn in aries - solar 12th to his taurus planets too, which is only further confirmation for me of a set that includes a number of astro signatures that mark already identified... i think mars in gemini is another one that could be added to the list, but again - nothing in isolation..

on another note - i saw the exhaustive post you made on the eclipse for the usa and hurricane irma.. you put a lot of work into that, but i didn't comment as it was going to take up too much of my time! i was also hoping mark would, but he has yet to... i might still, if he doesn't... good work and obviously you are into it! i think the rules and process for mundane is different then horary and i have had this conversation a few times at skyscript over the years.. really it might be a thread for the philosophical section! cheers james
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've associated the 12th house with lies. Possibly as a feature of secret enemies.

Hillary Clinton is an interesting case study. During the 2016 campaign she had all kinds of criticism thrown at her for being a liar, notably about the incident at Benghazi under her watch as Secretary of State. Donald Trump nicknamed her "crooked Hillary." Anne Coulter claimed that HC covered up for her husband's sexual predations. Previously, the Clintons spent several years being investigated for possible impropriety in a failed real estate development named Whitewater.

On the other hand, as Secretary of State a majority of Americans thought Hillary Clinton was doing a fine job. She has a long list of honorary degrees and honours to her credit. She was popular enough to become the Democratic presidential nominee.

So.... using the commonly rectified 8:02 am birth time

In Placidus, Clinton has sun, Mercury, and Venus in the 12th house, with squares to Venus and Mercury from a 9th house Saturn and Mars.

Looks like the liar, right?

But if you switch to whole signs, Clinton's 12th house planets move to the angular first house, notably including Mercury. Her domiciled Jupiter moves to the second house ($$$.) Her Mars and Saturn move to her 10th house of career, with the sun and Mars in mutual reception.

Looks like the strong leader, right?

I don't quite know what to make of the impact of the change in house systems on whether Clinton was a truth-teller, other than to note it.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread,

to go back to some of quotes i shared from the old texts - mars and mercury in hard aspect being one of them - i note hilary has a mercury square mars in her chart too..

working with houses is tricky, especially if the time hasn't been verified..

from a post i made sept 2nd.. hilarys chart has mars in the superior position to mercury..


" 8. if mars and mercury are in square aspect and mars hold the superior part of the right square, this indicates a fearful outcome to all evils.. it weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, make him the victim of evil rumors, and stirs up dreadful dangers of accusation, so that all these difficulties end in prison... these evils grow stronger in a diurnal chart but are lessened in a nocturnal.
9. but if mercury holds the superior position and the right side, he makes the natives wicked and malicious, displaying poisonous desires, carrying on all kinds of fraud, and greedily devouring the goods of others.. they pass from one victim to another, always rapaciously seeking what they can get; eventually they are made destitute by their wicked tricks and clever frauds and in the end lose all their possessions.."
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.... which is why I am skeptical of some of the old deterministic doom-and-gloom cookbook delineations.

Clinton has had many undeniable successes in her life: most recently a best-selling book.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread,

a person will not get very far in astrology if they aren't sceptical on pretty near everything to do with astrology! i think that goes without saying.. to flip it around on you the new 'non deterministic - you can be anything you want' cookbook delineations suck big time too!

as for h clintons success with her book... good for her!

here is the not so pretty side some folks picked up on her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtH7iv4ip1U
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, I supported Hillary Clinton, in recognizing that she-- like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders-- was a flawed candidate. I read all of the right-wing boiler-plate about "crooked Hillary."

My sole purpose in posting on this thread was to suggest how, if lying has a house connection such as the 12th, a finding of untruthfulness may be a function of the house system selected. Not to re-hash the 2016 election.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i understand waybread.. it's interesting conjecture - houses and whether there might be a component to lying built into them.. i mostly think of the planets being the active ingredients and houses being more of a passive receptor, but that is a kind of static thought which might be wrong.. i don't know..
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't see houses as having a "lying component built into them," although the 12th has a wretched reputation in traditional astrology. It's more like a given interpretation might be an artifact of the house system used. Re: the 1st and 12th, it makes a big difference in whole signs with a late degree rising.
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfgang wrote:
In the modern version of astrology, Neptune Mercury aspects are indicative of lie (s) or liar.

b.r
Wolfgang


Wolfgang and everyone else:

I would agree that natal Mercury and Neptune is the signature of a liar and or con artist. Another signature to watch for is natal Mercury in Pisces, in square aspect or opposition to natal Mars.

A third signature of deception is Gemini rising, especially if the chart ruler is afflicted with Neptune or Mars.
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the issue a lot differently.

Labeling someone a liar is a serious charge, because it implies deliberate deception vs. a mistaken belief. Particularly labeling someone merely on the strength of a simple Mercury-Neptune contact, because you don't know in a "blind" chart how the person has conducted herself.

A happy Mercury trine Neptune might be someone with a rich imagination who writes fiction. Wilhelm Grimm, of the Grimm brothers' fairy tales had this aspect. Thor Heyerdahl, famous for his sailing adventures and best-selling books, had a Mercury-Mars conjunction in the 9th (journeys over water) square Neptune (ocean.)

Roughly 1/12 of the entire human population will have Mercury in Pisces, or something over 633 million people. To put this in perspective, this figure is over twice the entire US population. For Gemini rising, you'd have to look at ascension times of the different signs, but we're still talking hundreds of millions of people. Then if you do the arithmetic on hard Mars aspects, giving Mars, say, a 7 degree orb, we'd allow 14 degrees x 3 on either side of the conjunction, square or opposition. That makes 42 degrees or roughly 12% of the 360 degree circle. I don't think you can say that all of these millions of people are con artists without any prior knowledge of them.

So, yeah. If we see something fishy about Mercury-- the planetary ruler of thieves and liars-- let's take note. But we cannot label someone a liar without knowing something about him.

(I have none of the suspect chart placements, so trust me on this one.)
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
I see the issue a lot differently.

Labeling someone a liar is a serious charge, because it implies deliberate deception vs. a mistaken belief. Particularly labeling someone merely on the strength of a simple Mercury-Neptune contact, because you don't know in a "blind" chart how the person has conducted herself.

A happy Mercury trine Neptune might be someone with a rich imagination who writes fiction. Wilhelm Grimm, of the Grimm brothers' fairy tales had this aspect. Thor Heyerdahl, famous for his sailing adventures and best-selling books, had a Mercury-Mars conjunction in the 9th (journeys over water) square Neptune (ocean.)

Roughly 1/12 of the entire human population will have Mercury in Pisces, or something over 633 million people. To put this in perspective, this figure is over twice the entire US population. For Gemini rising, you'd have to look at ascension times of the different signs, but we're still talking hundreds of millions of people. Then if you do the arithmetic on hard Mars aspects, giving Mars, say, a 7 degree orb, we'd allow 14 degrees x 3 on either side of the conjunction, square or opposition. That makes 42 degrees or roughly 12% of the 360 degree circle. I don't think you can say that all of these millions of people are con artists without any prior knowledge of them.

So, yeah. If we see something fishy about Mercury-- the planetary ruler of thieves and liars-- let's take note. But we cannot label someone a liar without knowing something about him.

(I have none of the suspect chart placements, so trust me on this one.)


Yes, good little Waybread .always the humanitarian, everyone is good, never untruthful or a liar in her eyes.

I can cite many excellent examples of Mercury in Pisces being untruthful, outrageous liars, but whether it will mollify Waybread remains to be seen LOL ! I have a long time client with natal Mercury in Pisces in the 12th who admitted during a recent consultation that she was driving a motor vehicle with an expired drivers licence that she refuses to renew, because she feels that the driving licence laws in her country are cumbersome and difficult.

This client has a natal chart laden with Neptune. Pisces rising, Sun in Pisces, Neptune square natal Moon, etc.

Natal Mercury is also found debilitated in Pisces, in the 12th house of Pisces.

My advice to her (and anyone else who deliberately breaks the law) is to think about the serious karmic consequences of their actions and, when caught breaking the law, ponder the possible jail time and consequences of a criminal record.

I happen to come from a family where everyone (mother, father, daughter, brother and sister) have something in Pisces, Sun or Moon, and or Gemini or Virgo prominent.

They are all much like my Sun in Pisces client, in denial about everything, "POOR ME". playing the victim card, lying, deceiving, exaggerating facts and running from one crisis to another. Meanwhile, blaming transiting Neptune in Pisces for their woes ! LOL

The best examples of lying and deception are the ones in your own immediate family, watching the lies, the b.s., everyday !

Therefore, who do you think knows more on this subject, me or you !
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabunim, I am not your or anybody's "good little Waybread." Mad Nor have I ever believed that "everyone is good, never untruthful or a liar." Nothing I posted leads to that surmise.

But notice a big irony here: you fabricated a deceitful description of me, a mature and not-so-little woman whom you've never met. So what does this say about the astrological signatures of deceit? Would it include your own Mercury placement?

I pointed out that roughly 1/12 of the people on the planet, or something around 633 million people, would have Mercury in Pisces. This is more than twice the population of the entire United States, which just happens to be the 3rd most populous country in the world.

I'm sure you've got some super anecdotal examples of chronic liars with Mercury in Pisces. But you do not have any kind of systematic or random sample of the global population of people with Mercury in Pisces. On even a small scale, what sort of objective research have you done with a decently large sample?

I don't believe in karma in any past- or future-lives sense. There's no hard evidence supporting it. Metaphorically I think karma hits us in this life, but not in a one-to-one correspondence. But notice how reporting this one client anecdote rhetorically situates you as the Wise One. Ditto for you being the Wise One who knows better than your family members.

But are you, truly? Note that true wisdom entails a measure of humility and compassion for people.

I basically left home at age 17 to attend college, and have seldom lived close to family members since then. None of them were/are Piscean. My 34-year old daughter's moon is in Pisces, and she also left home young to attend university. I have never found her to be deceitful by nature, but with Mercury in Virgo opposite her moon, I can attest to her rich imagination.

I have no idea what is the sum total of your astrological knowledge.

I can only say that I've been studying astrology since 1990, and for the past decade I've read hundreds of charts for people, primarily on the Astrodienst and Astrologers Community forums. You can peruse my analyses there. I estimate that on average, I get one request per week via PM for a reading. I am a happy amateur, and I have never charged for a reading. I have never been accused of being too soft on horoscope natives/querents, but have been told sometimes that I've been too hard on them.

And you?
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