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Decumbiture: Gout, or Pseudogout?

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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Decumbiture: Gout, or Pseudogout? Reply with quote

I am hoping this image posts--wish me luck!

Gout is a good traditional disease. Considered a sign of longevity, it is known as an "old person's" disease. With increased age comes the increased chance of getting gout. As our population ages, the incidence of gout is on the rise here in the USA.

Short-term, gout and pseudogout have similar treatment strategies. Long-term, there may be a difference in approach, so here we are interested in figuring out which condition the patient has.

I am applying Saunders' rules for decumbiture to this chart to help get to the root of the cause of the illness. The work cited below is [i]The Astrological Judgment and Practice of Physic, etc.[/i]

Thursday, October 5th
7:27 pm
Cincinnati, Ohio
Hour of Saturn

Aries 20 Rises

Planet Degrees Aspect to Moon

Mercury 10 Libra 41--Opposition
Sun 12 Libra 54--Opposition
Moon 15 Aries 30 (Waning)
Mars 19 Virgo 22 None
Venus 19 Virgo 32 None
Saturn 22 Saggitarius 32 Trine
Jupiter 29 Libra 1--Opposition

Aspects pertaining to illness:

Moon conjunct ascendant
Moon opposed Sun
Moon opposed Mercury
Moon opposed Jupiter
Mercury conjunct (combust) Sun
Venus conjunct Mars
Mars square Saturn
Venus square Saturn

The patient woke up on Tuesday and experienced slight pain in her left foot on getting out of bed. The pain kept getting worse until by Friday evening, she realized she could no longer put her weight on the foot at all, and she was in constant pain. The foot was swollen, hot and reddened. This chart shows the time she called her daughter for a ride to the emergency room.

Look at all those aspects! Full Moon--she reports the ER was packed.

Moon, waning, directs us to the cusp of the twelfth in Pisces for a description of the illness; an illness ruled by Jupiter (blood), affecting the left foot (Pisces, feminine sign = left side of the body, ruling feet).

"Saturn in Sagittarius, Lord of the Hour. Lord of the twelfth or sixth, causeth
the dry and hot Gout, and swellings in the feet remediless." Saunders Vol 1, p. 124.

Saturn is square to the Lord of the Ascendant, Mars.

Saunders has us look at planets on the cusps for symptoms of the condition. Moon is in the twelfth house conjuncting the Ascendant.

Saturn is on the cusp of the ninth, a place on the chart Saunders associates
with the belly. --Saunders vol. 1, p. 97. The patient may be experiencing belly pain, but she is more concerned with the painful foot indicated by Moon in the twelfth conjunct the ascendant.

The patient reveals she has kidney failure, a potential cause of gout, so we
will look at the tenth house, the place indicating kidneys on the chart.

The cusp of the tenth indicates the condition of the reins (or kidneys).

Of the four humors, indicated by Venus=choleric/attractive,
Saturn=melancholic/retentive, Moon=phlegmatic/expulsive
Jupiter=Sanguine/digestive, Saturn has the strongest essential dignity at 11 Capricorn. This results in the kidneys' retention (Saturn) of impurities in the blood (Sagittarius) which cause gout. Perhaps the cause of this particular gout involves the an error affecting the bone marrow, because Saturn is in the
sign of Sagittarius, ruling the marrow of the long bones which are vital to the formation of blood cells.

There are several planetary placements that can indicate gout. Saunders calls this one an "remediless" gout, which may mean one of several things.
Acute outbreaks of gout tend to be intermittent. The underlying condition
that leads to gout never goes away entirely, thus it might be considered
"without remedy." On the other hand, this might be a gout look-alike called
"pseudogout," identified in more modern times, which involves the calcium
leaking from the bones (suggested by Saturn in Saggitarius), increasing
calcium levels in the blood until it crystalizes, eventually settling into
and inflaming a joint. Although the causes differ, acute pseudo-gout is
treated in generally the same way as acute gout.

Blood tests done during this illness show both an increase of both uric acid
and calcium. A high uric acid level is an indicator for gout; calcium, for
pseudo-gout. Neither condition can be ruled out by blood tests.

Doctors (ruled by Venus in Libra) were in a hurry to diagnose and discharge
this patient (Libra, a moveable sign, on the cusp of the seventh house.)
Doctors, ruled by Venus conjunct Mars, did not closely examine the cause of
the inflammation but treated the condition as an infection (Mars) with
antibiotics and painkillers.

The patient was misdiagnosed with cellulitis and sent home before the diagnosis was corrected and tests that would clarify which condition caused the gout could be performed.

Several days later, the patient was seen by a specialist and diagnosed with
gout. Again, tests for the cause of the gout were not performed.

Moon is in the twelfth house within five degrees of the ascendant.
This placement of the Moon in the twelfth house again emphasizes the patient's foot, the site of sudden (Aries) acute pain.

Anyone like to comment on whether they think this condition is caused by calcium buildup, or uric acid crystals? And . . . why?
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

Last edited by spirlhelix on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 965
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really impressive work!

I don't have sufficient astrological or medical expertise to help you out, except to ask whether it is possible to have both illnesses at once.

I'd think of Saturn as ruling calcium, and Mars in the 6th house of ill health applies to a square with it.

Gout was also considered a rich man's disease, associated with too much rich food and drink. This seems like Jupiter, which some would consider to be in a critical degree at the end of its sign.

In modern astrology, Neptune rules diseases that are difficult to diagnose, and it's sitting in the 12th house of the feet.
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Waybread!

Thanks for your response! I think the chart tends to bear out your theory that both causes may be involved, because Pisces on the cusp of the twelfth and Saturn, Lord of the hour squaring Mars, the Lord of the ascendant are both found in double-bodied signs, signalling dual conditions.

The podiatrist, the first specialist who diagnosed gout, claimed the two conditions were mutually exclusive. The second specialist, a nephrologist, seems quite sure they are not mutually exclusive, and wants to follow up with further testing at a future time.

As you noted, Jupiter, ruling the illness, is poised on the last degree of Libra, ready to enter Scorpio. Interestingly, Saunders says this about Jupiter in the first degrees of Scorpio Saunders Volume 1, p.145:

"Jupiter in the first six degrees of Scorpio is cold in the first degree, and moist in the second, ingendering Diseases of thick and stinking Flegm, corrupting the Blood, and Flegm predominates in the commixtion, ingendering cholera vittellina, with Gouts in the Feet, swellings and pains in the Feet . . ."

So I wonder if the chart is saying that the primary cause of gout might have triggered the secondary one?
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I don't have your knowledge of medical astrology-- or medicine-- but in a desultory way, I am trying to learn more about it, so I hope you will post further case studies. Including ones where you know the outcomes, as a teaching device.

With that applying 6th house Mars-Saturn square, I would think that calcium this is the more acute problem.

BTW, I don't have gout or pseudo-gout, but I have been diagnosed occasionally with high blood levels of calcium. With natal Mars opposite Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn, perhaps this isn't surprising. Twice my MD/RN requested a bone density scan, because with calcium in the blood it's usually not adequately going onto the bones. Osteopenia and osteoporosis are often outcomes. Hopefully this woman has been checked out for her bone density.
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call!

The patient has been diagnosed with hypercalemia, hyperparathyroidism and osteoporosis.

She was treated in the past with a partial paratyroidectomy, but the blood calcium levels are back up again last I heard.

She says she is due to have a DEXA scan next week. I will see if she can give us the time of the test for an updated decumbiture chart.

Thanks for the encouragement to post on medical astrology! It requires a degree of open-mindedness to find the correspondences between modern medicine and traditional decumbiture, but they are still there! Modern medicine focuses on the very small, while traditional medicine looks to the cosmic.

"As above, so below!"

Since you have expressed an interest, here is an older post of mine exploring the four virtues used in traditional decumbiture:

Like you, I become interested in medical astrology from time to time on an "as needs" basis. Unless you are a full-time astrologer, the strict rules of decumbiture provide examples only occasionally. I tend to rely on times provided by friends of mine having a medical crisis. This isn't a very systematic way of studying decumbiture, but over the past few months several of my close friends have experienced illnesses resulting in need for bed rest, ER visits, etc. So I will try to get a few more permissions to post decumbiture charts from these folks for discussion here.

I encourage you to ask any of your questions as they arise. Who knows where they will lead?

"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
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Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much.

I'm coming at medical astrology from a more modern approach, where I have had some small success with the Ebertin degrees for specific parts of the body. For example, after several years of a very painful, wonky knee, I had my left knee joint replaced. My Jupiter is at 19 degrees of Capricorn, and the Ebertins give this degree to the left knee ligaments.

Have you used them?
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Waybread

Decumbiture is traditional by definition, so I'm not sure how to translate this system to modern techniques or planets. Also, I don't consider myself a brilliant natal astrologer, although your explorations sound intriguing.

I do know that some traditional physicians used natal charts for comparison with decumbiture charts, possibly to look for matching degrees in signs that might indicate the severity or effect of the condition. I am curious about any source materials describing this practice, so perhaps that's another thread.

I sent you a pm about the rest.

Best regards,

"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
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