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Charles Manson died.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Charles Manson died. Reply with quote

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Manson,_Charles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

Astro data bank has an AA chart for him, based on birth certificate.

That Moon, Moons Nodes, Mercury, Ascendant T square, around 3 to 5 degrees of the fixed signs, seems significant. IsisTranspluto was at the end of Cancer when he was born, and his childhood would have been marked by its transit through 3 to 5 degrees of Leo.

Fame, or infamy, is shown by Moons Nodes aspecting the chart angles, and his Moons Nodes aspect his Ascendant. This is combined with the Moon aspecting the Moons Nodes, which can often be associated with autism, or being shut off from the world. Mercury being involved with the Moon and the Moons Nodes could indicate that he was dangerous and capable of carrying out violence (obviously this won't always be the case with this aspect, and there will be unknown patterns that change this effect).

He has a very strongly aspected Mars, but Venus, at 18 degrees Scorpio 18 minutes, doesn't seem to be doing anything much other than a 22.5 degree aspect to Pluto and a conjunction to his Sun, though it and its antiscion, at 11 degrees Aquarius 42 minutes, would have been transited by IsisTranspluto during the 1960's. His Mars Neptune conjunction is conjunct his IC/Descendant midpoint.

He has just had a Jupiter Return.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

i hadn't looked at cm's chart in some time... check out the mars/pluto midpoint - about 19 leo - directly square his sun... that smacks strongly of sexual predator..

and he was a sexual predator who was also mentally deranged.. the moon-mercury square in any chart, is always of concern as i see it.. connecting to the nodal axis only makes it more dangerous... moon conjunct north node and top of the opposition with mercury/ascendant - a real lunatic....

i see his death coincides with the jupiter return roughly... and jupiter rules his 8th house... his solar return for 2016 has an exact conjunction of saturn in sag/midheaven at 15 sag - which lands in his 8th house and in the solar return chart - jupiter in libra is in the 8th house and also the ruler of the pisces ascendant...

the square of his sun/venus conjunction to saturn is interesting here as well as it would only make a lot of challenging astro even more challenging in a normal persons chart.. that this guy was able to live out a good chunk of craziness is really unfortunate.. the chart is a heavily fixed one... the only cardinal planets are uranus and pluto - both square one another and a reflection of some of the intolerant, totalitarian thinking that would have been more pronounced at the time of his birth.. i am sure his upbringing and early formative years had a huge impact on the choices he made over his life, to the point they might not have appeared like choices..
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see Charlie is all the rage this week and will be for about a month or so. Couple of points then an astrological point or two.

Was Charles Manson stone cold crazy or just plain evil? Probably both. By any objective standard his rantings made no sense to anyone but him and his drug addled followers. They were all so daman crazy that prosecutor Vince Bugliosi sold a jury a tale as bizarre as any Charlie ever told - that the killings were the result of a distorted interpretation of a Beatles' song "Helter Skelter" and that Charlie thought would start a race war. I have a lot of respect for the late Vince Bugliosi, but I never bought that one. True, Charlie validated it after the trial and they did smear the words "Healter (sic) Skelter" on the walls in blood, but the rest is a bit hard to swallow. I believed Charlie thought that was a really cool thing, but Bugliosi thought it up. One Manson family member,l and I've forgotten who, supposedly told Truman Capote it was really a drug deal gone wrong. Either Roman Polanski, who was not home, screwed Charlie in a dope deal or (more likely) Charlie was enraged that Terry Melcher, a rock music producer who visited the Spahn Ranch wouldn't promote Charlie's music. Melcher recently sold the mansion to Polanski and Charlie didn't know that. He thought he was striking out at Melcher. That makes more sense to me. Anyway because of the insane horror of the killings, Charlie became a cult figure instead of a forgotten psychopath as I'm sure Jack the Ripper would become today if his crimes were recent.

What always struck me about his chart is Saturn in Aquarius in the 11th. Most traditionalists would have jumped at the conclusion that this is a splendid placement that should have produced some good. Saturn is in the sign of its traditional rulership and in is the triplicity ruler of air in the chart. Its in a good house and free from a hard aspect from Mars. If ever there was a well placed Saturn in a chart, this should be it.

OK OK Venus, his ASC ruler is in detriment and combust - not good. Saturn squares them, but it's a good Saturn, so harmful things shouldn't be all that harmful. Jupiter, the greater benefic, is angular and in a water sign. He is a triplicity ruler of water.

Is this chart, taken as a whole, all that bad? The ASC ruler is a concern, and outside of Saturn there isn't much to shout about here, but where is the deranged murderer?

I've wondered, and never investigated, whether or not natal charts work well for clinically insane people. Do the same rules apply? I don't know. Maybe the misery he caused others is in the chart and that in turn is the tip off that something is really wrong him. Or maybe the cosmos expects rational behavior from everyone.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tom,

i think the sun/venus conjunction applying to saturn is bad and i don't think some dignified saturn is going to help that.. but i think the real problem - insanity, or mental health - is caught in the mercury square the moon at the nodal axis and angles... i personally see this square as a critical part of the overall picture... the first part - sun/venus square saturn - might not have been as horrific, if the moon/mercury/nodes/angles pattern wasn't there... all of it works in tandem...

i suppose i would include jupiter in the whole mercury/moon square as it just expands all the craziness further and doesn't help any here.. that is how i view it, but again - hindsight - 20/20!!
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
all of it works in tandem...


I think that's the key - the piling up of testimonies. Just to add to it, Solar Fire lists Mercury as stationary and it just went direct about 16 hours before Charlie was born. Stationary planets can wreak havoc. Sure did with his mind.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know, i often wonder what happened to the many other people that would be born at a very similar time to any of these people that became famous thru something positive or negative? my thinking on this is that it can't be just explained via the astrology.. there has to be something else at work.. i don't know what it is..
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you know, i often wonder what happened to the many other people that would be born at a very similar time to any of these people that became famous thru something positive or negative?


I've thought about that, too and I've come up with two so-so answers. The first is that for all the talk about all the people who were born at the same time as Hitler, or Einstein, or Mother Theresa or Al Capone, I've never seen two nearly identical charts of total strangers. Over 20 years ago AOL put up a bulletin board. Remember computer Bulletin Boards? People were asked to leave their birthdays including the year, then contact could be established between them, if anyone so desired. I found 3 other people who shared my birth date and year. None had the same ASC even by sign. The two closest were born about 40 miles and four hours apart. Life experiences were similar in that all were American and experienced the things that Americans experience, but other than that, there was little in common in personality or experiences.

So out of millions and millions of AOL users and thousands of people who signed up, there were no true time twins to my knowledge. The fact is, they may not exist except very, very rarely.

I had an experience at an astrology club meeting when I was really new at the subject. A member put two charts up that were similar. They were not identified. The group was asked, "If you had a daughter, which of these two would you prefer that she marry?" The group almost unanimously chose Adolph Hitler over Charlie Chaplin. They were born 4 days apart. Show me Hitler's time twin with a biography or Chaplin's or any two people and we'll compare notes, but until I start seeing them, I'm going to insist they are rare and the question as to why one became famous or infamous and the other did not is just not that important, because it doesn't happen enough to bother with it.

The second thing I considered is less cynical. An awful lot is symbolized with very few symbols in a chart. Or put another way, there is more than one way that the symbolism can be carried out or realized. Suppose F. Scott Fitzgerald had a time twin. Is the only way that chart can be played out is a gifted but alcoholic writer? Doubtful. Do people become famous only because of their talent? Also doubtful. In fact it is very easy for me to visualize a person with great writing talent who never was published because he or she didn't realize the talent was there.

If there is one characteristic that most successful people have it is the will to succeed. The author Stephen King tried and tried to get his first book published and it was turned down over and over and over. He even gave up and tossed the manuscript in the wastebasket. His wife rescued it and urged him to keep at it until it was published. Suppose he married someone else or suppose another talented writer with the same chart gave up and no one encouraged him? The chart would play out within the limits of the symbolism, but not the same way. I think this is why we can be, and some of us are very, very good at hindsight astrology, but if we are handed several charts and are asked to pick out the plumber, we're lost.

I'm not going to get any more philosophical than this. I don't have the answer to the question and I freely admit my musings are likely to be way off base. Maybe the chart is little more than an inkblot test and the astrologer just projects on to the symbols. That sure as hell is the case with a lot of mundane astrologers. Why not natal?

Maybe horary is the only true astrology. It meets all the criteria of "as above so below." The horary astrologer knows through training and practice, what part of the chart to look for whatever he is looking for and knows how to apply what he's learned to the question. The question is answered and it is either right or wrong. The planets have a role in that chart, not multiple roles that have to be unraveled. Where is the cat? might not be the most important question facing the world at the moment, but if I can find the cat with a chart, and I can't determine the final outcome of war in the Middle East, maybe I'm better off looking for cats than trying to unravel the complexities of the world.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tom,

i like your post, especially the later part after the cynicism.. if i find identical or close to identical birth times, i will let you know.. however, i do think you sum it up best with the story on the stephen king and a different wife.. these external factors are not accounted for in astrology as i see it, and they have a big impact... maybe i am wrong and all we have to do is look at stephen kings 7th house and she how the wife played a very big role, but i doubt we get it that easy.. thanks for taking the time to wax philosophical here..
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
all of it works in tandem...


I think that's the key - the piling up of testimonies. Just to add to it, Solar Fire lists Mercury as stationary and it just went direct about 16 hours before Charlie was born. Stationary planets can wreak havoc. Sure did with his mind.


That is really interesting; I don't see stationary planets on the charts I use, and unless I look it up in the ephemeris I don't realise. I think Mercury in Charles Manson's chart was key to his violent acts. It is a stationary Mercury, a very powerful Mercury, that is twisted by its aspect (under one degree, conjunction square or opposition) to both the Moon and the Moons Nodes, the latter aspecting the Ascendnt putting him on the world stage and turning him into a sort of icon.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
uranus and pluto - both square one another and a reflection of some of the intolerant, totalitarian thinking that would have been more pronounced at the time of his birth


I have thought that the current Pluto Uranus square that has been around for a few years might account for some of the crazy intolerant totalitarian thinking that seems to have appeared suddenly out of nowhere.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi fleur,

i hadn't looked at cm's chart in some time... check out the mars/pluto midpoint - about 19 leo - directly square his sun... that smacks strongly of sexual predator..

and he was a sexual predator who was also mentally deranged.


Charles Manson was reputed to be intensely magnetic, especially to young women. That does seem to be something to do with his Sun Venus conjunction, which does form a 22.5 degree aspect to his Pluto, but that exact square aspect to the Mars/Pluto midpoint could be significant, I don't understand midpoints enough though I find the Asc/MC midpoint important from observation.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
you know, i often wonder what happened to the many other people that would be born at a very similar time to any of these people that became famous thru something positive or negative?


I've thought about that, too and I've come up with two so-so answers. The first is that for all the talk about all the people who were born at the same time as Hitler, or Einstein, or Mother Theresa or Al Capone, I've never seen two nearly identical charts of total strangers. Over 20 years ago AOL put up a bulletin board. Remember computer Bulletin Boards? People were asked to leave their birthdays including the year, then contact could be established between them, if anyone so desired. I found 3 other people who shared my birth date and year. None had the same ASC even by sign. The two closest were born about 40 miles and four hours apart. Life experiences were similar in that all were American and experienced the things that Americans experience, but other than that, there was little in common in personality or experiences.

So out of millions and millions of AOL users and thousands of people who signed up, there were no true time twins to my knowledge. The fact is, they may not exist except very, very rarely.

I had an experience at an astrology club meeting when I was really new at the subject. A member put two charts up that were similar. They were not identified. The group was asked, "If you had a daughter, which of these two would you prefer that she marry?" The group almost unanimously chose Adolph Hitler over Charlie Chaplin. They were born 4 days apart. Show me Hitler's time twin with a biography or Chaplin's or any two people and we'll compare notes, but until I start seeing them, I'm going to insist they are rare and the question as to why one became famous or infamous and the other did not is just not that important, because it doesn't happen enough to bother with it.

The second thing I considered is less cynical. An awful lot is symbolized with very few symbols in a chart. Or put another way, there is more than one way that the symbolism can be carried out or realized. Suppose F. Scott Fitzgerald had a time twin. Is the only way that chart can be played out is a gifted but alcoholic writer? Doubtful. Do people become famous only because of their talent? Also doubtful. In fact it is very easy for me to visualize a person with great writing talent who never was published because he or she didn't realize the talent was there.

If there is one characteristic that most successful people have it is the will to succeed. The author Stephen King tried and tried to get his first book published and it was turned down over and over and over. He even gave up and tossed the manuscript in the wastebasket. His wife rescued it and urged him to keep at it until it was published. Suppose he married someone else or suppose another talented writer with the same chart gave up and no one encouraged him? The chart would play out within the limits of the symbolism, but not the same way. I think this is why we can be, and some of us are very, very good at hindsight astrology, but if we are handed several charts and are asked to pick out the plumber, we're lost.

I'm not going to get any more philosophical than this. I don't have the answer to the question and I freely admit my musings are likely to be way off base. Maybe the chart is little more than an inkblot test and the astrologer just projects on to the symbols. That sure as hell is the case with a lot of mundane astrologers. Why not natal?

Maybe horary is the only true astrology. It meets all the criteria of "as above so below." The horary astrologer knows through training and practice, what part of the chart to look for whatever he is looking for and knows how to apply what he's learned to the question. The question is answered and it is either right or wrong. The planets have a role in that chart, not multiple roles that have to be unraveled. Where is the cat? might not be the most important question facing the world at the moment, but if I can find the cat with a chart, and I can't determine the final outcome of war in the Middle East, maybe I'm better off looking for cats than trying to unravel the complexities of the world.


Interesting. I was struck that there are two famous serial killers born within 24 hours of each other, Ted Bundy https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted and Richard Cottingham https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cottingham,_Richard

I disagree with you totally that everything isn't in the chart, I think it is. I can't prove this, but everything I have observed points to this. Stephen King's wife will be there in his own chart. His success will be in his chart, and even if you could find a close astrological twin, there would be differences in the charts that totally change things.

I remember seeing the charts of the Gibb twins, of the Bee Gees. They both died as their Solar Arc Ascendant progressed to their Suns, which was a few years apart. These are actual twins. Maybe Solar Arcs partly account for the "epigenetics" of a person's life.

As you point out, the main problem for astrologers is the lack of accurate birth data. Knowing where the Moon is, and where the chart angles are. Four hours changes the Moon by two degrees, which totally changes who that person is. The Solar Arc angles probably change a transit that could pass with little happening to a major life event. I haven't studied Solar Arc progressed chart angles anything like as much as I need to, for lack of data.

Charles Manson's chart is striking because of its 5 degrees Taurus Ascendant, Taurus being a sign of short ascension in the northern hemisphere, so very rare. Also his 4 degrees Aquarius Moon, which after about six hours won't be making the same striking aspects. His Mars Neptune conjunction falling on his Descendant/IC midpoint would pass within minutes of his birth; not least, this pattern does seem to show some musical ability, and Charles Manson was said to have made music recordings. Also maybe implies drugs.


Last edited by Fleur on Sat May 19, 2018 9:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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amymaddalozzo



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Charts of the same day Reply with quote

I am a strong believer in free will-astrology cannot explain everything. Via Noel Tyl's web site, I received an e mail from a woman whose chart was very very close to mine. We were born the same day, slightly different time and palce but it seemed these 2 more or less cancelled each other out so that our charts were very similar. What struck me was how different our lifes were. We both had the same moon/mercury/ moon nodes's t square but it played out in different ways. The other woman lost her mother as a child and was raised by a grandmother, I was raised by both parents but my mother and paternal grandmother had a big influence one me. When my husband died, this other woman's sister died and her husband found out about his health issues.
I would like to point out that Charles Manson's family has said that he was not abandoned by his family--when Manson's mother went to prison, other relatives took him. Manson was just a bad seed from the get-go. AMY
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amy, what I wrote about Mercury definitely doesn't include trines or any aspects other than 0, 90 and 180. And those have to be within one degree orb, or at most two. Possibly other 22.5 degree aspects if their orbs are very tight. And even then, this is just a partial hypothesis, I think there is something in it but it won't always work for reasons I haven't yet learnt.

I think Mercury in Charles Manson's chart is important. Compare it to Mercury in the chart I posted in this thread
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8981&highlight=psychopath
Which was a chart originally given by a poster called All Fire, on the Noel Tyl forum. (I wasn't able to either register or use old login details that I had never used, so couldn't reply on that forum).
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Vicki



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know of twins born 10 minutes apart but with different rising signs. Both became writers but one died in his 40s of cancer, the other is still living. Different rising signs means different house rulerships, particularly Lords 6 & 8.

Also Myriogenesis refers to each arc minute having a particular meaning. There is supposed to have been a book written about this, now lost. Firmicus Maternus mentions it.

There are 21600 minute positions. Each chart is unique because of this, so no astro twins. However we don't have access to this information at this time.
I wonder whether Myriogenesis might relate to fixed stars, their associated constellations and mythology.

However much as I would like to find out more about Myriogenesis the information would not be of much practical use. We do not have accurate enough birth times i.e. to the second, to be able to use it.
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