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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Charles Manson died.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my view, it is not so much the Mercury/Moon connection per se which tends to make an individual psychopathic, unless these bodies are under severe strain by Saturn and/or the outers. This is characteristic of the chart of mentally ill individuals, and we also see it clearly in CM's chart, as the two along with Jupiter form part of a Grand Square with Pluto and Uranus, most of these positioned near angles.

Likewise in the linked chart of the All Fire's psychopath, Moon and Mercury are at the tip of a very exact so-called Boomerang Yod involving Pluto and Neptune, with Saturn at its bottom.

You have got to look at a chart holistically. Wink
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's cool this thread has engaged more conversation! yippee!

on the general topic of similar charts, it is very hard to find them! twins might be a way to go, as sometimes the lives of twins turn out very differently.. why? purely a few minutes difference can't account for the very large differences as i see it.. i think one has to look elsewhere, beyond astrology..

fleur - stationary planets as i see it are always very powerful and have greater influence on a chart then they would otherwise.. and yes - the more recent uranus-pluto knock up would account for some of world events in the past few years too...

and as michael points out - the moon/mercury square is also in a wider picture with uranus/pluto...

i make my comment on mercury-moon hard aspects - square and opposition... not on mercury/moon contacts in general.. and yes, i do think other factors have to be taken into account as well, just as i mentioned to tom earlier in the thread... so, with all this in mind i would like to share a mystery chart for commentary.. this person - male- has the moon/mercury square that i speak of and it might or might not be considered more problematical, given it's position in this chart.. michael - what do you think?? fwiw- mercury is at 10 scorpio..

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Tom
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me start with a couple of quick anecdotes regarding same day births. My wife's sister was born the same day and within a few hours of Gary Ridgeway, aka the Green River Killer. My own sweet mother was born the same day as John List, a man who murdered his wife, children, mother and even the family dog, then left home and started a new life for himself without an ounce of remorse. I have no birth time for either. I do have birth times for both my sister-in-law and Ridgeway, but there is little to compare them. My sister-in-law loves the TV program "Wives With Knives," so ...

RE: Twins

Catherine Thompson (1858-1934) was a famous American astrologer primarily known for her financial astrology and disagreeable personality. She had a twin brother who died I think at age 16. True they were born about 90 minutes apart. It is widely assumed that twins are born within minutes of each other. They can be, but they can can also be born a decent time apart.

Free will: Ahhh we can wax eloquent on this for days on end. Interestingly I was just becoming acquainted with St Augustine of Hippo who had quite a bit to say about free will and it is not what we might think it is - at least according to him. It's a long story for another time, but as a caveat, it is not "free whim."


Quote:
Charles Manson was reputed to be intensely magnetic, especially to young women.


Yes and herein lies the problem for the astrologer working with public figures and public information. Manson has been called "magnetic" and "charismatic." Those references are in every article written about him and I suggest it's codswallop from some editor's desk.

To whom was Charlie magnetic? Well there were handful of drug addled teenage girls willing to trade sex for drugs and kill for thrills if it pleased a psycho. Everyone else thought he was just nuts or they were scared of him. The most insightful comment I ever read about Manson is that if he wanted something he thought he was entitled to it. The word "no" didn't register. His closest followers were similar with the notable exception that they tended to come from families who were financially well off. In short Charlie and his girls had problems with boundaries of any kind. The rest of the so-called "family" a tag given to Manson's group by a friend of Dennis Wilson's, found a kindred soul in their belief all should be theirs, if they wanted it. And anyone who they believed kept it from them could be killed with impunity. Charlie was nothing more than a con man and a thief who spouted gibberish that sounded good when the listener was stoned, as they often were. Once it was known that they would kill for him, fear became part of "family life." Some magnetism.

The lack of boundaries observation is interesting given Charlie's Saturn. It's elevated, in domicile and triplicity and in a good house. And it squares at least by sign, almost everything else in the chart. It rules the Moon, and Mars rules the 7th, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and the Sun. Charlie provides boundaries. He doesn't respect them.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, I will need to spend a lot of time puzzling over your mystery chart. I noted that in your chart Mars is caught up in a pattern with the Jupiter opposition to Saturn Neptune. Venus also is 45 degrees to Pluto, and conjunct Uranus. I need to come back to your chart later as Charles Manson and all he represented as an ineradicable icon in our culture and counter culture was occupying my thoughts.

I did wonder if Sedna was part of Charles Manson's experience of great suffering as a child, so put it into these charts. The transits are for 9th August 1969, the date of the Tate murders.



Last edited by Fleur on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Fleur



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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles Manson's chart, including Sedna, with transits for his death. His natal Mercury is 3 degrees Scorpio, antiscion 27 degrees Aquarius, so transiting Sedna squaring his Mercury's antiscion at his time of death might mean something? Transiting Sedna was also opposition his Mercury at the time of the Tate murders.

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Tom
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You put up Manson's chart twice.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
You put up Manson's chart twice.


Sorry for the confusion, one was to show the transits for August 1969 Tate murders, and the second chart to show transits for the date of Charles Manson's death. I was curious that transiting Sedna was aspecting his natal Mercury, and that whole Mercury, Moon, Moon's Nodes, Ascendant pattern, both times.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

that is true about twins not being born the same time and sometimes a longer time difference then many might realize.. however, there are lots that are born within minutes of one another.. those were the one's i was thinking someone could do some research on.. and i recall we had a thread on this topic of twins.. i will go see if i can find it now..

twins threads - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7337&highlight=twins and - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7750&highlight=twins

i agree with tom about the idea of finding magnetism in a chart... i have heard pluto rising in connection to the idea, or just pluto generally, which i suppose could be projected onto a strong scorpio type more easily, but overall - i am not so sure of finding it in a chart..

fluer,

regarding mansons suffering as a child, a few things..

1) it is interesting to see his moon conjunct the north node, which is generally meant to confer some domestic, or emotional nurturing and a desire to do the same for others as i understand it.. it might throw into question the benefic nature of the north node, as opposed to the south node.. maybe moon in detached and cerebral aquarius is not as applicable..and this would be more complicated given the set up with his moon square mercury and etc. etc.. however, i find that interesting in light of any topic on his early formative years..

2) given it is a day chart and putting emphasis on the sun, i note the close square to saturn.. saturn rules the 10th - which could be a symbol for either parent here, but i would be inclined to question the relationship he had with his dad, given the sun- saturn square and think that perhaps it has some under current to his life.. of course saturn is in the solar 4th house as well - so again i think it stresses some family dynamic that i would be curious to know more about..

3) pluto in the 4th opposite the midheaven and out of sign, with his moon.. uranus rising square the midheaven.. personally i don't need sedna to see an astro source on the topic of his upbringing being turbulent and more on an emotional level.. maybe it was stable materially, but not emotionally is how i would see it - again without doing a study of his life..

i have another example of a recent person in the news who has the very same moon-mercury square, with mercury in the dominant position as it is in mansons chart as well... mercury is in the upper square to the moon in both examples.. in ratko mladic's chart, the combo is involved with the outer planet uranus, saturn and jupiter by 45/135.. the hard aspects involving jupiter are close, which again is something manson has in his chart as well - jupiter connections to the mercury/moon square.. i am not giving jupiter a free pass just yet, lol...

ratko mladics chart here -
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mladic,_Ratko
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noel Tyl used to teach, and perhaps he still does, that Jupiter-Mars contacts indicate charisma. Manson has them in a fairly wide sextile, at least it's wide for my tastes. I'm not too sure about the aphorism though.

Fleur. I didn't notice the planets on the outside of the natal chart. My fault. Sorry about that.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
it's cool this thread has engaged more conversation! yippee!

on the general topic of similar charts, it is very hard to find them! twins might be a way to go, as sometimes the lives of twins turn out very differently.. why? purely a few minutes difference can't account for the very large differences as i see it.. i think one has to look elsewhere, beyond astrology..

fleur - stationary planets as i see it are always very powerful and have greater influence on a chart then they would otherwise.. and yes - the more recent uranus-pluto knock up would account for some of world events in the past few years too...

and as michael points out - the moon/mercury square is also in a wider picture with uranus/pluto...

i make my comment on mercury-moon hard aspects - square and opposition... not on mercury/moon contacts in general.. and yes, i do think other factors have to be taken into account as well, just as i mentioned to tom earlier in the thread... so, with all this in mind i would like to share a mystery chart for commentary.. this person - male- has the moon/mercury square that i speak of and it might or might not be considered more problematical, given it's position in this chart.. michael - what do you think?? fwiw- mercury is at 10 scorpio..



What I find intriguing about the chart is again how the Mercury/Moon square ties in with other aspects. Not only is Mercury in conjunction to the Sun (not too unusual a thing, of course), but those two bodies - along with Pluto in his own sign! - are sextile to Saturn in his own sign, as well as to Neptune.

Saturn and Neptune furthermore are forming exact semi-sextiles to the Moon, so - along one line of astrological thinking - the square is being "bridged over" by two easier aspects, the way the tension of an opposition can be eased by a trine plus a sextile, although a semi-sextile is a bit more of an ambiguous aspect than the latter.

Being in his own sign and sextile Mercury and the Sun, Saturn's consideration and self-discipline may act as stabilizers for this probably emotionallly volatile individual. By the same token, he may add rigour (and possibly rigidity) to the supposedly rather extreme ways of thinking we are dealing with here. All this is underlined by the Moon being in Aquarius.

Overall, I think this chart belongs to a pretty radical "reformer", but it's really hard to say if this would rather be a terrorist or an ingenious scientist.
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, thanks interesting example in Ratko Mladic's chart. This chart also shows the Mercury Moon and Mercury Moons Nodes aspects

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spencer,_Brenda

Brenda Spencer's Mercury is 1 degree Aries, which is a 135 sesquiquadrate aspect to her Moons North Node at 15 degrees Leo; also her Mercury's antiscion at 29 degrees Virgo makes a very wide orbed opposition to her Moon at 26.5 degrees Pisces. There definitely seemed something autistic about her, which would indicate certain Moon aspects, including Moon to Moons Nodes. This is an AA data chart with birth certificate, and her Midheaven/Ascendant midpoint is 26 degrees Pisces, so her Moon is exactly conjunct it; I think this midpoint is another chart element that can "twist" what they aspect, in her case her Moon.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks fleur.. bizarre example with brenda spencer.. i note saturn in aquarius in the 10th very prominent, as it sort of was with charles manson.. i wonder how tom would view this, since he thought it might offset the negative in mansons chart..

this chart is harder to read for me... i notice the saturn/neptune square at the nodal axis.. saturn on the south node - considered a negative, while neptune squares the nodes... further to that - moon 135 neptune.. mercury is 135/45 the nodal axis too, but i probably wouldn't be looking at that near the top of my consideration of a retrospect on this persons life..

i do see the mercury/ mars with moon in the middle.. a guy once wrote a book on planetary containments.. essentially the way it works is it is like a sandwich with the planet in the middle taking on the nature of the bread on both sides.. in this case i wonder if the moon was expressing the mercury/mars - violent and aggressive thoughts? it is mostly wild conjecture on my part here.. i also note a wide opposition between mars and pluto - more prone to violence as i see it.. the chart is a hard one to fathom.. very last phase of the sun/moon cycle here too.. perhaps this also feeds into an unrealistic orientation to life - moon and all the other planets in pisces all contributing to her loss of contact with reality? that would emphasize neptune on an angle too..

i have a hard time reading her chart.. i would probably fall back on the critical idea in astrology that planets on angles are always the most important.. in her chart this goes back to my first comment - saturn/neptune square which includes the nodal axis.. some kind of depressed and delusional dynamic was at work here.. some alternative outlets might have been helping others, artistic pursuit, and etc - but for whatever reason - these outlets were not given or taken.. one could blame it on saturn on south node too i guess... she was never given the right chance to live life in a more fulfilling way..
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook shooter. A chart without a time.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lanza,_Adam
Mercury is within 2 degrees of a square to the Mean Moon's Nodes. Also it could be square to the Moon, but we don't have a birth time. That would put the Moon conjunct the Moon's Node too, depending on the birth time, and Adam Lanza had been diagnosed with autism.
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


i do see the mercury/ mars with moon in the middle.. a guy once wrote a book on planetary containments.. essentially the way it works is it is like a sandwich with the planet in the middle taking on the nature of the bread on both sides.. in this case i wonder if the moon was expressing the mercury/mars -..


Yes, it does look as though the Moon is carrying Mercury, and maybe Mars too, with it.

I hadn't heard of planetary containments. I have vaguely read about translation of light,
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html
but not really sure if that has to involve the Sun and Moon, and people use the term loosely for want of a wider term.


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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another curious chart with Mercury to Moons Nodes. Mercury is 7 degrees Leo, giving an antiscion of 23 degrees Taurus, which is exactly conjunct his Moon's North Node.

No time of birth is known, but using this chart for 00 hours, which puts the Moon in a strongly aspected position regarding planets that indicate artistic talent, the Moon is 135 degrees sesquiquadrate aspect to Mercury.

Richard Dadd, for anyone who hasn't seen his paintings or doesn't know about his life, was a massively talented artist who painted fairyland, and who was imprisoned in Broadmoor, a prison for the criminally insane, after murdering his father.

His Sun is also conjunct his Mercury and the antiscion of his Moon's North Node, and the Sun represents the father.

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