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Receptions and conflicting testimonies
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Receptions and conflicting testimonies Reply with quote

I ran a horary and would love some help on the details. I've only started working with receptions in the past 6 mos to a year or so, and that's added a new component to horary for me, but professionals and more experienced astrologers always see more than I do, so I'm wondering what I am leaving out here.

The question and my take are as follows.
Will my civil husband (cohabiting for 13 months now) and I stay together at least thru 2019 and will we marry and have a child in that period of time?
One year ago I had asked if we would marry, and waybread and Paul were helpful enough to input comments on that chart (which was a "no" and was accurate). I'm wondering since the relationship has grown stronger, if marriage and a child are now a possibility. We have discussed a child given some health constraints of mine and he has mixed feelings on that, but if he is not going to participate, he knows i have a backup plan because a child is important to me. There are many other details here I am leaving out for the case of simplicity (a recent operation/ my health and his, finances, etc) but I can provide them later if it helps in deciphering the chart.

ASC is just past 3 degrees so it's not too early. It is Sagg/ so I'm Jupiter, but so is our potential (5th H) future child.
DSC is Gemini/Merc. Merc is conjunct the ASC by 4 degrees, and since the ASC is his DSC, his 7th house of legal unions, is that enough for a "Yes" about staying together and/or marriage?

The Sun could help answer it, but Sun is in Scorpio and loves "Mars"...which is my womb, my home, and also rules his 6th house. Sun is hidden from me in my 12th, can that mean he is hiding something from me?

What bout his hopes and dreams (his 11th/ my 5th)...that too is Mars. Mars is in his 4th of home. Mars sextiles him/Mercury in his 7th. I can't really get further than that as I dont know how to read it.
His secrets, his 12th is ruled by Venus, and Venus is in his 5th. (romance? with me? Am I missing something). Venus is in Scorpio, in case of relevance...

The potential child, if any, would be Jupiter as the natural ruler of children, and that is conjunct me/Venus in my 11th of hopes and dreams (accurate bc I dream of a child and real family). The 5th cusp is Aries (just by 1 degree so I am still going to use it?) meaning Mars is the primary significator for our potential offspring. Mars is in HIS 4th of home, and is sextiling him/Merc so that would suggest he accepts the idea of a child with me? And Merc being in Jupiter's home, means Merc would love the child in that way too, no? (I realize Jup rules the 1st house/me but it also rules the child, can we do that?)

What's the moon doing:
First, it concerns me Moon is in the 9th. I am living in his country which is a foreign country for me, and he is still trying to sell an apartment (and in fact our marriage and a potential child is predicated on that sale). You couls say i'm "moving towards" his home (his new home?) but i dont know what else Moon in the 9th signifies per se.
As for aspects: Moon is trining Saturn in my 1st, and also trining Uranus (not counted in horary but as it tenants the 4th, could be co sig for that house?). Since I can't trine myself that doesnt tell me much. Sat rules my 3rd of communications and also my 2nd house of income and resources. FWIW. But still those are "me". But my 2nd is his 8th of debt... is it just saying/showing he will support me financially?

Sun's lack of aspects concerns me (because normally I get the Sun aspecting me as Moon ie he's into me "as a woman" but not otherwise...yet here it's the reverse). I read somewhere if you're already in a relationship, a lack of aspect doesn't mean much per se (aside from An aspect showing An answer to the question). I suppose the chances of all significators trining each other in a given chart would be low, logically speaking, just planetarily, but still.
Sun is at 19 Scorp, in the Triplicity of Venus (me) and in the Term of Venus (me) ..it also has Face at that degree. One could probably argue the Sun is moving towards me/ASC in another 11 degrees as a positive testimony but 11 is quite a bit...

Mercury is in Triplicity of Sun (his male side), in term of Jup (me and/or the child) and in Face of Mercury, his intellectual (non physical) side.

Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio are in each other's houses (reception?) but no aspect. So can you say I "behold" the potential child, but since no aspect, this would say "no child" with him?

But if we use Jup as the child and Venus as me, the conjunct implies there would be a child? this is where I get stumped, when there are conflicting testimonies.

One other fact is that i have spoken of using donor materials to become pregnant if he cannot or will not participate and he hasn't opposed that yet but I'm also waiting for his final answer (by end of this month) so we can proceed in either case.

Here is the chart:
[img]https://imgur.com/a/osi5l[/img]
https://imgur.com/a/osi5l

Am interested in any input on the unaspected Sun vs Mercury on the ASC --which takes precedence?)
And the Mars vs Jupiter as child, and anything else I'm overlooking...
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 222

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polina,

Hope you are doing well since we last spoke here in your last thread.

With regards to reception, and things coming to perfection in a chart, I find this link very helpful.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9271&highlight=dignity

Except from the applying aspect between the relevant planets, ToL and CoL will perfect the matter. I can not open the chart link on my apple device for some reason I do not know, so I can not say if there is any ToL between Mercury and Jup.

Wishing you the best going forward.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Breeze,
I'm doing really well, thanks. I hope you are too)) Thanks for replying to the thread.

Hmm, I don't know why an iphone would not show you the chart, it's publicly on the Imgur site, but if you have access to a regular computer at some point, it should show up. I'm on a computer, and I can see it there plus on 2 different Android phones.

I looked at the link and I like what felipe wrote. he actually helped me get into receptions a bit more. Here is that quote:

Quote:
Dignity shows ability to perform:
Am I or the other party able to meet?

Aspect shows opportunity or occasion:
Are the parties coming together?

Receptions show inclination:
Do the parties want to come together?


So dignity: Sun has dignity at face. Jup has some dignity at Term in Scorpio. Moon has no dignity and therefore no power to act. Mercury has power of face, not more. So -- his sigs, Merc/Sun, both only have dignithy of face. Jupiter is the strongest of the four and Moon has zero. Wow. that's really depressing.
I guess it means the apartment is not going to sell for a long time and he wont move our rel'ship forward??

Aspect: no aspect between Merc and me unless you count the conjunction to the ASC.

Receptions: Merc receives Jupiter bc he's in his home (Or do I mean to say Jup receives Merc bc Merc is in his home?)
Is it enough that I asked the question and want the matter to perfect... I'm in his country moving towards his 4th of home, would that indicate my half of the issue "wanting" to come together? This is where I get confused between reality and horary. If I want X but my planet doesnt show that then....???

As for your post, I am guessing TOL is translation of light and COL Is "collection" of? (??) But I'm not sure what that would mean. I also do not know the details about TOL, I have read that only the Moon can translate light and it has to be between the two significators or the aspect has to occur timewise from planet A to the Moon and THEn to planet B. Here the Moon is not involved between Jup/Merc. As noted, Moon only aspects Saturn and Uranus in the chart.
Mercury only aspects Mars and Neptune. Neptune is in my 3rd in case that is helpful. Mars is in the chart's 10th house.

So given there is no TOL then the answer to the chart question is "NO" -- we will not stay together and not get married, am I right?

In other words, Merc on the ASC would not count. It has to aspect a planet?
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polina,

At this time of the year we have to be particular careful with changes in daylight savings time. So assuming the chart is correct, here are some comments:

It is useful, if not critical, to cast the Arabian part of Marriage in questions like this.

Quote:
It is Sagg/ so I'm Jupiter, but so is our potential (5th H) future child.


The potential child is L5, Mars. There is not reason to use a natural ruler if an accidental ruler is available. Besides, Jupiter is taken: you.

Quote:
7th house of legal unions


Legal unions is a house 10 matter. House 7th is your partner.

Mercury is in your house. Favorable for staying together as far as he is concerned.

Quote:
The Sun could help answer it, but Sun is in Scorpio and loves "Mars"...which is my womb, my home, and also rules his 6th house.


What is important do answer the question?

Do you want him? Does he want you? Do you both want the relationship? Do you both want a child.? Keep it simple and direct. There is no need of an apartment, your womb or house 6.

Quote:
What's the moon doing:


It is going to trine Saturn with negative reception. More about this below.

Quote:
and he is still trying to sell an apartment (and in fact our marriage and a potential child is predicated on that sale).


You can ask a separate horary about the sale, if you want to.

Quote:
You could say i'm "moving towards" his home (his new home?) but i don't know what else Moon in the 9th signifies per se.


The Moon is your emotions, that is what is important in the context.

Quote:
Uranus (not counted in horary


Of course Uranus is counted in horary, and very effectively. If some do not want to use it then let them not use it. Here it is quite remarkable as it is in a trine with the Moon and Saturn, so it imparts a "theme" to that trine. The theme is "giving up", "letting go", "loss", "separation", or something to that effect, as far as your emotions are concerned, within the context.

Quote:
Sat rules my 3rd of communications and also my 2nd house of income and resources. FWIW. But still those are "me". But my 2nd is his 8th of debt... is it just saying/showing he will support me financially?


If Saturn does not rule a relevant house then it is a general obstacle. That is what the Moon is going to encounter. Notice that Saturn rules Mars (the child) by exaltation. This configuration hints at an obstacle in getting a child within the current state of affairs.

Quote:
I read somewhere if you're already in a relationship, a lack of aspect doesn't mean much per se (aside from An aspect showing An answer to the question).


It depends on the context and the type of question. Here, aspects, or lack thereof, between you and him are irrelevant. The only aspect that would be relevant here would be between you and Mars, the child.

Quote:
Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio are in each other's houses (reception?) but no aspect.


The mutual reception shows how much you want the child and how meaningful/important it would be to you.

Quote:
So can you say I "behold" the potential child, but since no aspect, this would say "no child" with him?


Actually you do not "behold" the child at all, you are in adjacent houses. Since there is no aspect of ToL or CoL the child is inaccessible to you within the current arrangement and state of affairs.

Quote:
But if we use Jup as the child and Venus as me, the conjunct implies there would be a child?


We cannot do that in my astrology. Jupiter is you, and Venus is also you. But if someone with experience comes and says that is acceptable in their astrology then you have a "yes".

Quote:
this is where I get stumped, when there are conflicting testimonies.


There are no conflicting testimonies, you just got the significators wrong or are simply mixing techniques, which is a problem.

Overall, I don't see anything in the chart showing actual separation between you and him. Uranus certainly shows that is in your mind in some way. But none of your planets are angular and he is in your house so he wants to stay with you. It looks to me you are staying as you are for the foreseeable future. As for the child, I don't see it in this chart. Mercury sextiling Mars makes no sense to me in that respect.

If we look at the PoM we may get further insight. Look at the receptions towards the PoM dispositor and you get the "feelings for the relationship". And any impending change of signs or aspects will tell if the relationship is changing and how.

But, this is your chart and there are different ways to approach it. So if someone else has the experience and can interpret it using a different technique you might get a different answer.

With best wishes,
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much Felipe for these details. There is a lot to digest here so I am trying to let it soak in. Where I am located we don't change clocks at all, so the time on the chart is 100% correct for my location.

I ran the POMarriage and it lands at 24 almost 25 Capricorn. So ruled by Saturn in my 2H of income and resources/assets. Moon aspects Sat as noted (of course i would like marriage, no news there) but in the chart HE doesn't aspect Saturn...so that means "no"??. Sun will aspect the Part in 6 degrees time. But the part itself doesn't count as an event right?? . I dont think it makes other aspects (well moon in 150 degrees)... Its in my 2nd house. He values me or he just wants my money? Nobody is changing signs though, none of the planets are near any house cusps.

You said the sextile makes no sense, it took me a few hours to figure out what you meant Wink -- I think you were saying that since my significators do not aspect BabyMars, and since we cant flip significators and say the child is Jup and I"m Venus, THEN we have no aspect between me and potential child. Which would make it odd that HE aspects the child if there will be no pregnancy. Is that sort of what you meant?
So....if he is against a child (which I presume), then why the sextile(?)

[by the way: I had read or thought or somehow understood that we always take Jupiter as cosignif for potential child. I don't know if that's true, or only true IF the ASC sign does not also rule Jupiter. That's why i suggested we take Jup/Venus as child/me. If that is a cut and dried wrong rule, then it's good to know. As another side note whenever I get the baby aspecting Neptune, in my personal charts it means loss. I can't speak for others but for me it has (3 times indicated miscarriage)]

Wait...His 10th legal contracts is Aries so Mars sextiling him as Merc. marriage(?) in 5 degrees of time. Merc Angular in 1H, Mars Angular in 10H. So years.?

Quote:
You can ask a separate horary about the sale, if you want to.

I asked one and posted it over a year ago on this site, no one gave input> I have a really hard time with real estate charts. Also his apartment situation is complicated...as they did find a buyer right away, but that sale fell thru because there was a lot of deceit involved, they fired the agency... and I have no idea how to read that in a chart. Then two months ago they finally lowered the price. So I did run another chart (a year later) after that change to the new price. That one is showing me he meets the buyer in X units of time which, when looking at the ephemeris, gives me the 2 planets meeting on January 7th, give or take a day. But again, i dont know if that's accurate enough to finalize a sale.

I was chided for asking "too many questions" before. But actually a clue about the apartment sale would also give me a huge clue about when he will be feeling more free to make decisions about us such as marriage/children than right now. It's a complex situation but he is trying to keep the peace with his ex while waiting for a sale and the market right now is not good.

But i digress, for now, I wanted to focus on our relationship & this chart. Just providing that additional info in case it can be incorporated.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polina,

Comments below:

Polina wrote:
Where I am located we don't change clocks at all, so the time on the chart is 100% correct for my location.


Ok. Good.

Polina wrote:
I ran the POMarriage and it lands at 24 almost 25 Capricorn. Moon aspects Sat as noted (of course i would like marriage, no news there) but in the chart HE doesn't aspect Saturn...so that means "no"??. Sun will aspect the Part in 6 degrees time.


Saturn does not signify the desired legal marriage, it signifies your relationship with him. Aspecting Saturn does not mean legal marriage.

Neither of you are in major dignities of Saturn so whatever your interests are in this situation they are not about the relationship. As you said, no changes for Saturn and no changes in receptions from either of you in relation to Saturn.

The Moon trine shows you staying in a relationship that the Moon dislikes. You can expect some degree of emotional rejection towards your relationship while at the same time wanting the Sun in your life. That, along with the lack of aspects to a child gives us a picture of the foreseeable future.

Polina wrote:
He values me or he just wants my money?


Mercury wants you more than anything in the situation.

Polina wrote:
Which would make it odd that HE aspects the child if there will be no pregnancy. Is that sort of what you meant? So....if he is against a child (which I presume), then why the sextile(?)


You want a child. Mercury aspecting Mars does not show me you getting a child so that sextile either means something else or it has no discernible meaning at all. Personally, I would need to start imagining scenarios in order to come up with a meaning for that aspect.

Polina wrote:
by the way: I had read or thought or somehow understood that we always take Jupiter as cosignif for potential child.


Jupiter is the natural ruler of children according to some sources. Natural ruler does not automatically mean co-sig. A child is house 5.

Polina wrote:
Wait...His 10th legal contracts is Aries so Mars sextiling him as Merc. marriage(?) in 5 degrees of time.


The house of the legal system is not turned. I would want to see radical L10 ToL or CoL between L1 and L7 to show legal marriage. Or a conjunction in house 10. Something to symbolize the actual meaning of the event.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Felipe,
Thanks for posting back.

Why is Saturn the relationship? It is tenanting my 1st house, wouldn't that mean it's "me"? It rules my 2nd and 3rd / his 8th and 9th. How do we conclude it is the relationship itself?
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polina wrote:
Why is Saturn the relationship?


The dispositor of an Arabian Part signifies the object.

Polina wrote:
It is tenanting my 1st house, wouldn't that mean it's "me"?


Not in my astrology. It can already be difficult to interpret a chart with one significator for something why complicate? Here you already are Jupiter and Venus.

Saturn has a strong influence in your house, thus indicate a strong presence in your life, as does Mercury, but they are are not you.

Polina wrote:
It rules my 2nd and 3rd / his 8th and 9th.


The question is not about house 2, 3 or 8 or 9.

Polina wrote:
How do we conclude it is the relationship itself?


It is horary technique: The dispositor of an Arabian Part signifies the object.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so if I follow your logic, the Arabic Part of Marriage is represented by Saturn, although the Part itself falls at 24/25 Capricorn.

Therefore we presume Saturn represents the relationship as a whole.

Why this doesn't make sense to me, is I thought that the aspect (or non aspect) between our 2 significators in the chart indicate the relationship and how it currently stands (example: he/Merc in my 1st house, he values and wants me). But I thought that the significator for the Part would refer only to Marriage, not to cohabitation, not to romance, not to whether we love each other, just to legal contract marriage.

But you are saying it has a broader meaning, I suppose?
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felipeastrologo



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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An aspect shows influence among planets or an event, it cannot signify an entity.

The Arabian Part is disposited by Saturn because it is in Capricorn. So Saturn represents the entity or object named by the Part.

A relationship is a separate entity, thus a separate planet signifies it, although it often happens that a planet already in use is the significator. The people in the relationship are part of it but the relationship is totally separate and a more complex entity.

If it is legal marriage or not, if people love one another or hate one another, or if it is cohabitation, it is all the same entity: it is a relationship.

For example: some couples do not care for one another but the security or comforts of the relationship makes them stay together; or fear of being alone makes them stay together. Or they are too old to go out on their own. Or they stay together because they do not want to break the family even though they have had enough of one another. Or they stay together because the relationship enables them to do spiritual work together, or they work or have a business together. These examples have nothing to do with how they feel for one another; the relationship is the glue that keeps them together and has its own qualities which the people in the relationship have their own individual views about.

Of course, lots of relationships exist because of how we feel for one another. Your chart is clear about that: Mercury really likes/values you and the Moon really likes/values the Sun. But the chart shows you are not very happy about the relationship itself. This is not uncommon.

The only way we can assess the relationship itself is by assessing the dispositor of the PoM.

It is called Part of Marriage, but that is only a name. We can easily call it Part of Relationships. It is the same thing. It applies to any type of ongoing relationship or partnership involving house 1 and house 7.

Also, it is worth mentioning that there are different formulas to calculate some Parts. For the PoM I use Asc + Desc - Venus. Using that formula the Part falls in Cancer in your chart so the relationship would be signified by the Moon. So it looks like you used some other formula.

Curiously, analyzing the receptions in your chart gives a generally similar interpretation to Saturn. Both Jupiter and Venus (you) are in the Moon's fall; while the Moon (you) is in Saturn's detriment.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks Felipe. this makes more clear sense now. I was keeping it more heavily divided, and using the name (Part of "marriage") literally. I didnt realize it had wider meaning - good to know.

I use libracentre.co.uk for automatic Arabic Part calculations but i've also seen that their formulas dont match other ones. I used to always do Parts by writing out the mathematics by hand, but I haven't done that in a while and can't find my notes on the process (adding the 360 degrees etc), and...I'm really bad at math! Shocked Very Happy So I trust that your calc, with Cancer/Moon is probably the correct one and mine may be wrong. It sounds like the ending result/chart message is the same.

Reminder to self. A planet in detriment means it is "negative, misused, or non-existent or weakened." So I'm weakened by the relationship.
A planet in fall "loses its strength and influence." I guess it means i have little power to affect change in the situation.
I want to look at receptions again and see if the relationship exalts him or helps him (more than it does me) or is just neutral...
So Merc in Sagg: "When Mercury is in Sagittarius, it worries about the big picture, and as a result, often loses sight of the important details"
is also in detriment. He's not in a strong place to act. Sun in Scorpio is at least neutral though so he has more power there in his manly side than in his mental logical side. I guess.

The relationship itself has gotten better between us over the past 6 months, truth be told. But there are these big ticket items that concern me (hence the post).

Thanks for your input, this really helps me learn - alot of it is new information for me.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polina wrote:
Reminder to self. A planet in detriment means it is "negative, misused, or non-existent or weakened." So I'm weakened by the relationship. A planet in fall "loses its strength and influence." I guess it means i have little power to affect change in the situation.


It ALWAYS depends on the context. In some charts essential dignity is of no relevance at all, in some charts esential dignity is merely descriptive and has no positive or negative connotation. Is some it is as the quote you wrote.

In your chart we have two distict examples. And since this is a relationship/psychological chart (it allows you to look at different parts of your psyche) you can understand which part of you is weak or strong.

Venus is in detriment so you are unahappy/weak in Venus matters. As a woman. You are not getting what you want in some facet of the Venus department. Which I think you will agree, in relation to getting pregnant and having a child.

Polina wrote:
I want to look at receptions again and see if the relationship exalts him or helps him (more than it does me) or is just neutral...


Mercury is not in major dignities of the Moon. Mercury's interest is you. The Sun is in the Moon's fall so there is a measure of disappointment from him towards the relationship.

Polina wrote:
So Merc in Sagg: "When Mercury is in Sagittarius, it worries about the big picture, and as a result, often loses sight of the important details"


Maybe that applies to him, maybe not. The important thing is that Mercury here shows he is totally "into" you.

Polina wrote:
is also in detriment. He's not in a strong place to act.


Mercury's detriment can be disregarded in this chart altogether because it is automatic. L7 in the sign of house 1 is automatically detrimented. The fact that it is in house one is the important part. He wants you and he is important to you. He is in a meaningful place to act (your house) and his actions have a deep influence in you.

Polina wrote:
Sun in Scorpio is at least neutral though so he has more power there in his manly side than in his mental logical side. I guess.


The Sun represents the "man" stuff including the "male" logic. Being peregrine is a debility, it is not neutral. It means that the Sun is at the mercy of external circumstances and has no clear direction of its own. Again: in the "man" department. (The same applies to the Moon in your "emotion" department.)

And you have to differentiate between essential and accidental dignity. A Sun peregrine in a fixed sign in the 12th house will not or cannot do what is required to produce pregnancy (which is a "man" function). House 12th is not a good place to be to do just about anything. Planets in house 12 are often experiencing fear and thus can much more easily find reasons not to do something than to do something. Plus, there may be medical reasons for the Sun to be there so you guys have to investigate all the variables (sperm, vitality, etc) in order to rule out obstacles.

Polina wrote:
The relationship itself has gotten better between us over the past 6 months, truth be told.


The Moon (the relationship) is peregrine so it will go where the wind blows. Sometimes it will go in a nice direction other times not so nice.

Polina wrote:
But there are these big ticket items that concern me (hence the post).


And hence the receptions from Jupiter and Venus towards the Moon. There is a certain amount of disappointment about the relationship or about those big ticket items that you value in a relationship but are missing here.

Polina wrote:
Thanks for your input, this really helps me learn - alot of it is new information for me.


You're welcome. I'm glad you find it useful.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I think I understand it now. One thing stands out though, this:

Quote:
The Sun is in the Moon's fall so there is a measure of disappointment from him towards the relationship.


So on the one hand, his thinking/psychic/male self is super into me, and that is the predominant direction he's going in (towards me or staying with me).
But his virile side feels .. a measure of disappointment can we know how or in what way or about what? Does that mean sexually? is it like he imagines our relationship should be something else (what else?) and it's not? Or am I taking things too literally again? Wink

Or is the point that we disregard that too since the Mercury placement is stronger? Would we always presume a planet in H1 in a rel'ship sort of gives the stronger testimony if the other planet (like here, the Sun) is in a bad house ilke H12?
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polina wrote:
The Sun is in the Moon's fall so there is a measure of disappointment from him towards the relationship. So on the one hand, his thinking/psychic/male self is super into me, and that is the predominant direction he's going in (towards me or staying with me).


There is no one single predominant direction. There are things going in different directions in your relationship. This is all shown by the receptions.

Also, the Moon is your emotions. So there is more meaning here. The configuration in your chart is very common in relationships. The man does not want to hear about the woman's emotions. That is displayed clearly by the Sun in the Moon's fall. That alone is a lesson on receptions. And I would bet money that this is happening to some degree in your case too. The chart shows it. The man is in his "cave"…: don't bother me with emotions.

How much of that he is able to hide the fact behind some explanation or by changing subject or how much you are aware of or not if something for you to observe. The Moon is disposited by the Sun, so whatever the Sun expresses in the relationship has a direct impact on your emotions. The Moon is peregrine so totally susceptible. So, nice Sun: nice for you, if the Sun is not nice you get the short end of the stick in whatever subject is at the forefront. Here: having a child.

His thinking part (mercury) is really into you. He likes you on a personality level. The Sun, his male part is in Venus's detriment. This can be read in different ways. The one that makes sense to me, given the context, is that his male side rejects and upsets Venus in at least one particular area of their relation. It does not necessarily mean that he is not into you sexually, although there is an impact on the quality and/or quantity of attraction.

So the Sun is not on Venus' or the Moon's side. The Sun will not help you, on the contrary. But Mercury will help you. So, if you want to get through to him you have to speak to his mind. Jupiter is Mercury's dispositor, that is: it has power over Mercury. That is a good but Jupiter is not strong so there is a learning curve for you to learn how to use that potential power. If you are too emotional he will close himself and, if he is skilled and you susceptible, will say whatever you need to hear to keep your emotional concerns, and Venus concerns at a safe distance. The obvious challenge is that men need to be more emotional and women more intellectual if we are to find a common ground of communication and understanding.

Polina wrote:
But his virile side feels .. a measure of disappointment can we know how or in what way or about what? Does that mean sexually? is it like he imagines our relationship should be something else (what else?) and it's not? Or am I taking things too literally again? Wink


You seem to be exploring the possibilities of the symbology. But the crux of the matter is that horary gives you some clarity and guidelines for thinking and action. It is up to you now to open the communication channels with you partner and sort things out. That is, bring up any fears to the surface and work through them. That means maturity, or maturing as a person and as a relationship. Honesty is needed.

Polina wrote:
Or is the point that we disregard that too since the Mercury placement is stronger? Would we always presume a planet in H1 in a rel'ship sort of gives the stronger testimony if the other planet (like here, the Sun) is in a bad house like H12?


Take all testimonies as a whole. There's no one testimony stronger than the other in meaning. They all mean different things to form a picture complete enough of what you need to know in order to conduct yourself in life in regards to the matters you are investigating.

My answer is: no child as long as the Sun is stuck in the 12th. Mercury can act in your favor but the Sun will not. He is split. What to do? He can go on being split and you depending on his will forever and time will pass and you remain in the relationship as it is now with all the low ticket items being addressed. That is: part of him likes you, part of you likes him, part is the opposite, and both are somewhat disappointed with the relationship but enjoying what you can. Or you talk, face your desires, fears and justifications and shake things up and see what happens next.
_________________
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Felipe,
Wow thanks - hugely helpful. I can say that i already broached the issue of doing IVF with him, since after severe medical scarring done to me by Suckerberg Medical Center in San Francisco, that is now my only option. (i will be suing but thats another story and another horary)

I explained, first without emotion, then with (bc i could not help it) what my options are, why it is this way, and that I want his help and participation. I need an answer by Nov. 25th and he knows that.

What is odd is, I believe a past chart showed the opposite: that the "man" part of him (Sun) was very very into me but the mind part wasnt. Here we seem to have the reverse. That is odd, why did it change.

Also he seems to react more to emotions but his Modus Operandi for any request is: 1) say no. 2) take a long time (months) to think about it 3) suggest we do exactly what I asked, as if it were his idea.
I'm not saying that will be the case here, but if he says "no" now, I'm hoping for it.
It is also odd and maybe doesnt relate to his own natal that he is a Water Sun (Pisces) so I would really expect emotion to touch him a lot more than this chart implies it does. In other words, if anything, I would expect him to react to my emotions and not a logical argument. I made the logical arguments this spring and they fell flat. Now there is new information medically speaking...and I shared that to the extent i could (given the limitations of his male mind to understand female reproduction and what it means to be standing before the risk of no children for the next 45 years of my life)...

I will try when I bring it up again this week to use more rational arguments then, if that should help.

Also - when will the Sun leave the 12th? Can timing this give us an answer or is it only symbolic? Because as I stated last year, when the apartment sells is when he is free and THAT is when things will move.

I will post the apartment horary in case that gives us insights, it might have the final answer there.
The link is here in case any real estate buffs want a look. To me these charts are difficult for some reason.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=104798#104798
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=104798#104798


Thanks again. I am still as ever digesting all this...
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