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Conception and miscarriage, the role of Neptune

 
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Conception and miscarriage, the role of Neptune Reply with quote

Hello,
I am currently awaiting the results of a fresh embryo transfer, the last step in the first round of IVF, in an attempt to become pregnant. I will not know the outcome, short term, for another week, and long-term, well really, for another 9 months, if it is successful. I had asked a horary just prior to the transfer, "if i transfer this cycle, will it be successful." What I would love is input on the role of Neptune [and also the Sun] in this chart. I should state I am what is considered "advanced maternal age" so the chances of conception in the first place are low, and the chances of loss if I do conceive are high. I"m prepared for that, and right now there would be measures I can take to try to solve any potential (hormonal or other) deficits that might help things along. (in addition to all the medications am currently taking). So that is the reason for this question. Even there are negatives here in the chart, I would like to hear about them and what they might mean for me, because maybe I can then be proactive in solving any potential problems or staving them off. If this is another loss for me, i'd like to know in advance also in order to plan timing and next steps.

First, this is my take (and I could be wrong here). Moon reaches Venus the child in trine - a "yes" for conception. But then Venus goes on to aspect Neptune which in my experience has been loss. Venus/baby is in my 11th of hopes and wishes. Neptune is in the baby's 10th (contracts (???)). Not sure what to make of the 10th.

The other point of concern is how Venus is under the sunbeams, making it not that strong. On the one hand, in medical terms, high progesterone levels would increase my body temperature (and I am on high doses of progesterone now). On the other hand, Sun doesn't necessarily represent medication or my female body/uterus, it is a malefic, so the message here may also be "heading for loss". (?)

As for reception and dignity:

Moon in Leo, not a great position (also - hot and dry). Venus in Sagg, in term of Jupiter, almost in term of self so a bit stronger. No special dignity to either.
Trine = harmonious.
But Venus Square neptune = challenging.

Any thoughts? am I on target in presuming SunNeptune are threats in this chart? I do realize the ascendent was early, i think that's simply because I had not yet done the transfer at the time of the question (and now I have done it).

[img]https://imgur.com/a/snocq[/img]
https://imgur.com/a/snocq
https://imgur.com/a/snocq
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polina,

Some quick comments:

The Moon trining Venus here can show conception.

There are several afflictions so there will likely be difficulties, as follows:

Saturn, L1 is in the 12th afflicted by a conjunction with a debilitated Mercury, L6
Both are on the ascendant by antiscion suggesting an unseen affliction
Venus is combust and is applying to the Sun
Jupiter is angular and in Venus and the Moon's detriment and fall respectively so Jupiter is actively against them.
Jupiter is on the South Node's antiscion so weakened. There could be a debility/incompatibility with the sperm used.

Since Jupiter is your L12 and there's plenty of activity in house 12 it is worthwhile investigating if there is something you may be doing against yourself in this situation that might interfere with the process.
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 272

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jupiter is very important in the chart and I think something for the astrologer to focus on regarding what it is trying to say (as the astrologer and the one going through the process, you should know better than us). The Moon is first going to aspect Venus and then translate the light of Venus, the subject matter, and give it to Jupiter via square and without reception. Additionally, the querent and Venus are disposited by Jupiter, so it holds a lot of influence over the question. Squares without reception are very difficult for much to happen, however. Still, Jupiter is right on the MC (the 10th often represents treatment plans and other things that aid the health problem), so powerful, and is the only thing fruitful in this chart. It is in a fruitful sign and is itself a fruitful planet. It could be representing the next step but it could also represent something that hasn't been tried yet (such as surrogacy?).

What is Neptune saying? Neptune often represents disappointments, unfortunately, especially when dealing with hopes that are not realistic. It can also represent problems that come up that are not easy to explain or cure. The Sun? Its heat here is likely emphasizing the conception is not taking, especially by ruling the 8th house and being with both the querent and the 5th ruler. This is an early morning chart with the Moon above the earth and in a fire sign - the day is not fruitful for the Moon, especially above the earth (making it less moist and conducive to life), and the Sun here is debilitated in the 12th, which again emphasizes life not being able to form. The Moon and Sun are the lights that give life to a chart, especially the Moon in horary. The excess heat suggests the fertility quickly being lost once gained. The north node is normally positive except when with the Moon, where the eclipse points are debilitating and decrease its energy also.

The querent is not in the 12th, she is within 5 degrees of the ASC, so regarded as in the 1st classically, and at a critical degree and about to change to a sign of her dignity. Yet she is still now in a hot sign and a barren planet and the Moon is also in fire sign (fire signs are not fruitful) and is decreasing in light. Overall, the chart suggests continued difficulty for the querent and to think of trying something else, if possible (surrogacy, adoption, etc.).

Jupiter often represents other opportunities we had not considered that work out better than our initial plans. It being in a sign that is the fall and detriment of her significators may be that it is something she does not want to do, though. Since Mars rules the 10th and is afflicting the querent by aspecting it and being in detriment, my guess is the treatment is Mars and Jupiter is another option.

I hope I am wrong, though. Good luck.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First,wow, thank you both so much for the replies.

There is so much to think about here.

I'm pressed for time today trying to juggle business problems and my health, but I have a few questions, then will reply at length later in more detail because there is a lot here. For now, initial thoughts and briefly:

Since Moon/Venus is "conception" in this chart, is it safe to conclude that the combustion under the Sun means loss for sure? ie i keep looking for the overall picture is the message "yes but loss"? Because depending on how one defines it, the fact we have an embryo and it was placed inside me, some might say that means "pregnancy". But in my book, it's not pregnancy unless it *stays there* and you carry to term.

Not sure how helpful it is to list all I'm doing already but basically, everything possible I am already doing. And yes -- I am not considering (nor will I) adoption or surrogacy. The goal is to have a biological child of my own, not of someone else's.

Since the ASC is early and chart was run before the transfer (but now I am post transfer) is it possible the chart is showing some of the processes that have already been undertaken By that i mean: taking extra precautions, extra hormones, extra vitamins? My doctor has created a "pregnancy similation" environment in my uterus right now and we are just waiting to see how the embryo responds. I'm on 8 hormonal applications and 2 injections daily in addition to the regular (multivitamin, Omega 3, folate, E and D, calcium). No caffeine, no sugar, no refined flour, no nitrates. But all that (aside from the hormones which are just for the IVF cycle), I've been doing for the past 5 years, so it sort of goes without saying.

Also if we progress the chart, Venus would now be within 3 degrees of the ASC (inside the 1st house firmly) but I suppose a) we dont do that with horary and b) it doesnt remove its proximity from the Sun (?)

There was mention of sperm, this embryo is with my partner's sperm, which they tested for morphology and count but not genetics, so at least in terms of the peripherals he was good to go. The fact we got embryos from the process must mean, on some level, there's compatibility and they were the highest quality (8 cells) on day 3, and the required number of cells on day 5 before transfer.

What I already know and what we have to avoid like an obstacle course: endocervical scars (that is why we do IVF not natural). And point 2 is mild endometritis in *parts* of the uterus but not all. This is a trial and error part of it because no doctor can implant an embryo into a specific part of you, it goes where it goes, even with ultrasound guidance.

Finally, if the squares/hot signs etc indicate fertility or lack thereof, in a way, we already know that as a given (or I wouldnt be paying this money, wouldnt be taking hormones, wouldnt be using medical methods to become pregnant and to undo the damage done by previous losses). So is it possible to view the chart subtracting those since, by definition, IVF is done for (a term I think is highly inappropriate) "infertility" (since if you create eggs and sperm, and have conceived naturally at some point, then by definition, you're fertile in my book). What i mean is, if we look just at placement and aspects does it give us more information somehow as to what to focus on or pinpoint??

Quote:
Jupiter is right on the MC (the 10th often represents treatment plans and other things that aid the health problem), so powerful, and is the only thing fruitful in this chart. It is in a fruitful sign and is itself a fruitful planet. It could be representing the next step


At this point I'm trying to figure out WHAT Jupiter means> If it is the treatment then it's good, because it's fruitful and positive, no?? So what obstacles haven't I already 1) encountered and 2) tried to resolve??

In terms of body temperature/hormone levels/uterine environment/embryo quality we have the best we can work with at present time at least to the best of my knowledge.

I am still wondering if Sun equals something to do with body heat although in typical terms, hotter is better for an embryo (they are usually 2 degrees hotter than the mother's body temp FYI)
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A technical point: Saturn is in a different sign from the ascendant so it is in the 12th. It cannot move signs because of proximity to a house cusp, so it cannot be in the next house.

The chart is showing me conception and afflictions. There's nothing else I could tell for certain.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 272

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is not a classical interpretation of where a planet lies. Maybe if you use whole houses. I primarily follow Ptolemy, since his rules are more accurate.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8124&sid=0a46b27618f8503a20c05ce6b0b6cd5c

He also says a planet within 5 degrees of the next sign (+/-) will take on characteristics of either sign, and will be neither one nor the other (it suggests instability or changefulness).

Polina - there are fertility astrologers you could talk to. Natal tends to be better at helping someone with these sorts of problems. All we can really gather from this chart is that if you proceed as you plan, there is unlikely to be success.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm well IVF is my only option now so I can't really see that there's anything else to be done, short of a miracle. We wont adopt or do surrogacy and I do not want another woman's eggs or DNA. So this is it.
I did consult one fertility astrologer but she does the most effective dates/times for conception, she doesn't look into personal natal charts. If you have recommendations for the latter, I am all ears though. Maybe they can see a physical symptom that can be treated and isnt being treated (altho frankly I'm taking so many drugs right now, i think the entire spectrum is covered!! but who knows!!)
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 272

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the astrologer base those conception times on your birth chart? One common astrological tool is to use the phase of the moon you were born with as a a guide for when you are most fertile. For example, if you were born on a waning full moon, during the month when the moon is in this position and the day before you would want to try at that time. When the ovulation cycle and moon cycle line up is when you are supposed to be most fertile. I don't have a lot of experience with fertility astrologers but I do know predictive astrologers who are knowledgeable in fertility. I think this is something one can learn on their own with research, though. I also think looking at the natal chart will tell you whether this is going to happen or not. I don't like to be too fatalistic but there are certain things in a chart that are more likely to occur than others.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit,
Yes, she does. She has an entire system/methodology that guarantees higher conception results using transits /progressions of various times above and beyond just normal natal chart opportunities. If natural conception is 25% her rates are like 30 or 35 or more... but again, it's not every month or every year that you get those lucky streaks. Some people can go 5 or 10 years without one.
And yes, I looked into the Moon phase situation about 4 years ago. But to be honest, that's not too helpful because it is not every year that the Moon returns to that position in your chart and also coincides with ovulation - its extremely rare that those two happen in tandem.
I've had my natal chart judged also, long ago, about pregnancy. The verdict = "difficult but not impossible". Just briefly I have Cancer rising/Scorpio 5th house cusp, Mars 11H in fertile Taurus [trining Venus in 7H Cap and squaring Aquar Sun in end 8th] and Moon 28 Libra.
That is why I turn to horary to see (where) the difficulties lie and try to solve them as best I can.
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Polina



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 109

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to loop back with the answer on this. It did not take, ie there was no conception. I had measured hormones to assess if the embryo survived in me or not and the numbers simply fell, so it did not. I have no way of knowing if this was due to my uterus or the DNA in the embryo though, no sure way to know. The indicators for transfer were all good as far as the doctor was concerned; since I have so few options she is very careful about proceeding if something isn't aligned and looking good for the transfer. So in terms of doing all we could, well, we did all we could.

In short: an applying trine between L1 and L5 is not enough for a "yes" if that planet then aspects Neptune later or is combust, or has any afflictions, apparently. I find this surprising because I would think an applying conjunction/trine/sextile would overpower things like reception or combustion etc but apparently the reverse is true. I mean when I read a chart I first look for an applying aspect. Is it the case that reception with no aspect would be better?

I just transferred another embryo, and now have 2 left, but as they are all fertilized w/the same material ...well... this is scaring me now. It took this long for my body to recover from the previous drugs, which is wasting a lot of precious time too. I have reread this thread still trying to make sense of what the chart meant,and Tanit's comment that if i continue this path it won't be successful.
I am now thinking if i should do a horary just about the quality of the embryos and see if the answer is there.

The only other options I have is to either buy donor material or hope to find a different partner but at my age/health, another partner is not a realistic option.

I wanted to thank both of you for the input on this thread last December, because I refer back to it as training material when I try to read other charts on the topic. I am grateful for your time & help!

p.s. why is Moon next to north node considered bad luck? I've never heard that. I heard South Node is bad luck.
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