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Resolved inconsistencies with John Carpenters natal chart

 
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skorpio87



Joined: 25 Dec 2016
Posts: 19

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:48 am    Post subject: Resolved inconsistencies with John Carpenters natal chart Reply with quote

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Carpenter,_John



For a long time I had difficulties understanding John Carpenter's natal chart; this is because he has a very strong "dark" streak, and you would expect to see lots of scorpio/8th house placements, or perhaps some strong plutonian aspects; however surprisingly in his chart you don't see much of these at all. However, while reading about some of the more esoteric and symbolic traditional meanings of the angles in a chart; the source of the darkness/morbidity that comes out in John Carpenter's movies becomes a lot more clear. First of all though, I will list the more conventional factors inclining towards "darkness" that I noticed in John Carpenter's chart:


1.8th house ruler mars in the 1st house

2.Saturn in the 12th house

3.Saturn dominating jupiter via trine (as well as the fact that saturn is aspecting jupiter from the 12th house)

4.His chart is nocturnal and the sun is in capricorn

5.His mercury and venus are in aquarius, which is ruled by saturn. This should theoretically give a dark/heavy energy to his mercury and venus.

6.Ascendant is trining his sun in capricorn, thus further personalizing some of this dark, saturnine/capricorn energy


While it is true that John Carpenter does have a lot of conventional factors that would indicate a rather morbid turn of mind, I still think that overall his chart is still pretty underwhelming and not quite what you would expect if you are at all familiar with the kinds of movies that he has made. That being said; as I alluded to above, I think it is the traditional interpretations of the angles that really tie together and make evident the darkness that is commonly associated with John Carpenter and his movies:

1.John Carpenter has an extremely angular jupiter conjuncting the IC

In traditional astrology the IC/4th house is commonly associated with the end of life, and also the grave. That being said, not everyone with planets conjunct the IC/4th house are morbid in character (at least not that I have seen), however...John Carpenter's saturn in the 12th is dominating trining jupiter conjunct the IC, thus I think that John Carpenter's saturn works to synergistically "enable" the inherent morbidity of the IC angle through its own affinity with death and the grave, which in turn makes a relatively mundane or even "joyful" aspect like jupiter conjunct the IC become much darker and somber in nature than it would normally be. In effect, "bringing out" the darkness of a planet conjunct the IC

2.John Carpenter's moon is conjunct the DSC

According to traditional astrology, the DSC angle also has an affinity with death, since it is where the sun goes below the horizon as well as the fact that it is opposite the ascendant representing life. That being said, I think its the same principle as the one above; not every person with moon conjunct the DSC is going to be emotionally drawn to the concept of death, however under the right circumstances I think that a morbid/death oriented turn of mind could be enabled if there are other concurrent factors which would "push" this particular placement in that direction. In this case, I think that the thing which would push John Carpenter's moon conjunct DSC towards a more morbid direction would be the following two things:

1.moon's ruler jupiter conjunct the IC (thus reinforcing the death/grave/under the ground symbolism)

2.moon's ruler jupiter being dominating trined by saturn

Thus, I think it is due to planets on the angles and utilizing their traditional symbolic meanings that John Carpenter becomes a much darker character than what would be initially seen from his chart using a modern or even less archaic, more conventional traditional reading of his chart.

Its interesting to consider how John Carpenter is essentially an "accidental" scorpionic character, in spite of him having no planets in scorpio and having no planets aspecting pluto (I am aware that scorpio and pluto do not have a monopoly on "darkness" or death, and in fact share similar significations with saturn, capricorn; however IMO the darkness that would be indicated by John Carpenter's natal capricornian placements would not be so intense were it not for the other placements on the angles). In much the same way, I suspect that other perplexing, "incongruent" charts might make more sense when the aspects of the chart are combined with the more esoteric/archaic meanings of the angles thus creating personalities that become incidental simulacrums of existing zodiacal archetypes.

Also, interestingly enough, I strongly suspect that it is saturn's dominating aspect of jupiter that lends the palpable "overwhelming", dark feeling that John Carpenter's movies often embody. Thus, saturn's dominating aspect can literally be felt in John Carpenter's movies which I find really interesting and it helps any astrologically keen viewers to more easily identify and personify the energy of saturn aspecting another planet via a dominating relationship.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I often find that those who enjoy horror, such as myself, also often have strong Uranus influences. It isn't just about violence, but extreme violence; extreme terror and shock (trying to surprise the viewer). Uranus is something you do not expect. His Uranus is tightly on the MC, coloring his career and public persona, and its energy connects to the Moon (extremes of emotions), Venus (creative interests, esthetics), Neptune (film, imagination), Jupiter (unorthodox and originality) and his Saturn conjunct Pluto (fascination with moments of restriction/helplessness). Someone born with a night Saturn opposite Venus and conjunct Pluto might also be able to detach themselves emotionally enough to handle the subject matter. Saturn in detriment can also have a fascination with cruelty, particularly with Pluto. Yet, he might have also understood characters like his Halloween heroine Laurie who defeats Michael Myers time and again (Venus coming up against terrifying and restrictive circumstances). So, one does not even need to look at his Mars much to see a lot of potential there. As he said in an interview I read, horror isn't about one thing, it is a combination of factors that come together. His ultimate goal was to scare (or shock) the viewer. He was able to understand all of the art behind it and not just the blood and gore. Mars in Virgo types can also be perfectionists and obsessive towards things they care about. I would regard his as the 8th ruler in the 12th. Were it in the 1st he might have acted on that darkness, as angular planets have more energy to act outright rather than, say psychologically.

Stephen King was born the year before and you will find some common traits. His Moon is opposite Uranus, Mars in the 12th, night Saturn conjunct Pluto in Leo. It isn't a visual art to him as much. For him it is about the story. He has Mercury conjunct Venus/Neptune, sextile Saturn conjunct Pluto. Although, Carpenter also understood story telling with his Mercury trine Neptune, and opposite Pluto, of course. Mercury-Pluto types can actually have some of the darkest minds you can imagine. Moon-Uranus people in general can enjoy alienating others and certainly know how to do it. They can be provocative and push the line. I think both are masters at emotional manipulation with a goal to disturb the viewer.

I don't know much about him as a person and someone's career can be a small part of who they truly are. Also, not all of his work was horror.
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skorpio87



Joined: 25 Dec 2016
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
Personally, I often find that those who enjoy horror, such as myself, also often have strong Uranus influences. It isn't just about violence, but extreme violence; extreme terror and shock (trying to surprise the viewer). Uranus is something you do not expect. His Uranus is tightly on the MC, coloring his career and public persona, and its energy connects to the Moon (extremes of emotions), Venus (creative interests, esthetics), Neptune (film, imagination), Jupiter (unorthodox and originality) and his Saturn conjunct Pluto (fascination with moments of restriction/helplessness). Someone born with a night Saturn opposite Venus and conjunct Pluto might also be able to detach themselves emotionally enough to handle the subject matter. Saturn in detriment can also have a fascination with cruelty, particularly with Pluto. Yet, he might have also understood characters like his Halloween heroine Laurie who defeats Michael Myers time and again (Venus coming up against terrifying and restrictive circumstances). So, one does not even need to look at his Mars much to see a lot of potential there. As he said in an interview I read, horror isn't about one thing, it is a combination of factors that come together. His ultimate goal was to scare (or shock) the viewer. He was able to understand all of the art behind it and not just the blood and gore. Mars in Virgo types can also be perfectionists and obsessive towards things they care about. I would regard his as the 8th ruler in the 12th. Were it in the 1st he might have acted on that darkness, as angular planets have more energy to act outright rather than, say psychologically.

Stephen King was born the year before and you will find some common traits. His Moon is opposite Uranus, Mars in the 12th, night Saturn conjunct Pluto in Leo. It isn't a visual art to him as much. For him it is about the story. He has Mercury conjunct Venus/Neptune, sextile Saturn conjunct Pluto. Although, Carpenter also understood story telling with his Mercury trine Neptune, and opposite Pluto, of course. Mercury-Pluto types can actually have some of the darkest minds you can imagine. Moon-Uranus people in general can enjoy alienating others and certainly know how to do it. They can be provocative and push the line. I think both are masters at emotional manipulation with a goal to disturb the viewer.

I don't know much about him as a person and someone's career can be a small part of who they truly are. Also, not all of his work was horror.


While im not going to completely discard the idea of uranus playing a large role in john carpenter's chart, personally I don't think its the smoking gun that we are looking for. The only notable aspect that uranus really makes is its opposition to jupiter and sextile to saturn, but all the rest of the aspects that uranus makes to the other planets you mentioned are too wide in orb (and separating at that) to really have the powerful impact which you imply that they do. The same goes for the saturn/pluto conjunction itself, its pretty wide, and while it is true that they are in the same sign, I feel like the orb is too loose to really give the saturn/pluto conjunction a noticeable kick. As for the aspects to mercury and venus, again the orbs are rather wide, as well as the fact that venus is separating from saturn at 7 degrees; thats a fairly weak aspect.

As for mars being in the 1st or the 12th house; personally I prefer to use whole sign houses since I find the interpretations to be more accurate, that being said I think that john carpenters movies reflect more of a "weighty", "hopeless" saturn in the 12th house vibe. Although I can see how a mars in the 12th house placement could be descriptive of some of his films though as well. Im agnostic on this point, although I do think that pluto being in the 12th house (via WSH) would be a good proxy for mars, and in fact pluto in the 12th house would be even more befitting of many of john carpenter's movies as opposed to mars being in the 12th house. All that being said, I still feel like the aspects that pluto has with the other planets are still too wide in orb to really have a powerful influence, but if we do assume that the aspects do have some kind of noticeable effect, then the aspects that pluto is making to saturn, venus and mercury from the 12th house are more descriptive of john carpenter's movies than mars being in the 12th house in my opinion

As for the angularity of mars and how it would be expressed; his mars is actually falling away from the ASC at around 21 degrees. While it is true that his mars is in an angular house, it itself is not actually that angular. This in turn would give a more subdued energy to his mars as opposed to if mars was actually conjunct to the ASC. Not only that, but most importantly is the fact that the 8th house ruler (the fact that it is the ruler of a malefic house makes the ruler no matter what planet it is, malefic itself) is coming to the 1st house. This implies that a person with the 8th house ruler mars in the first house would experience misfortune and injury himself (doubly so since mars is a universal malefic), as opposed to acting it out on others (although I suppose the latter is a possibility).

I would say its safe to say that John Carpenter is a pretty dark character, or at the very least has a dark streak. You cannot make the kind of movies that he did without truly resonating with that energy on some level, its not something that you can just fake and build a career off of it. Also I never said that John Carpenter directed horror movies, I said that his movies are very dark and heavy. This encompasses almost all of his movies, not just his horror ones.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skorpio87 wrote:
Quote:
While im not going to completely discard the idea of uranus playing a large role in john carpenter's chart, personally I don't think its the smoking gun that we are looking for. The only notable aspect that uranus really makes is its opposition to jupiter and sextile to saturn, but all the rest of the aspects that uranus makes to the other planets you mentioned are too wide in orb (and separating at that) to really have the powerful impact which you imply that they do.


I think you are excluding from consideration how exceptionally close Uranus is to the MC here even if it is retrograde. It also forms a very close parallel by latitude and declination to the MC. By longitude they form a partile conjunction and although the MC has just separated by primary motion I would still consider the conjunction as operative due to their proximity. They are also in the same term/bound. Looking at its declination Uranus is almost out of bounds here. The solar declination limit is 23°27 while Uranus is at 23°24 here.

The domicile ruler of the ASC and MC is of course Mercury in Aquarius in the 5th.

As outer planets seem to be creeping in here I would also note that John Carpenter has Pluto out of bounds. What makes this more personally significant here is that Pluto forms a tight parallel of declination to the MC.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as soon as one puts a post in the 'trad technique' forum it cuts off alternative perspectives on the chart.. i can see a number of astrological reasons for the question, but i am prevented from offering them given the box this post was put in!
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
as soon as one puts a post in the 'trad technique' forum it cuts off alternative perspectives on the chart.. i can see a number of astrological reasons for the question, but i am prevented from offering them given the box this post was put in!


I clearly lack your admirable self restraint James as i have bent the rules myself here! But i guess the whole point of posting here is provide people with analysis from a traditional perspective rather than people sticking in analysis based on asteroids, chiron, black Moon Lilith, sabian symbols, midpoints, TNOs, etc. If your looking to avoid that modernist smorgasbord this is the place to post. But if you want an anything goes, eclectism typical of contemporary astrology the internet is your oyster. So rather than see these restrictions in an exclusively negative way ,as you seem to, I know many members take a contrary view and regard this forum as an oasis to study and discuss traditional astrology undisturbed.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

I clearly lack your admirable self restraint James as i have bent the rules myself here!

If your looking to avoid that modernist smorgasbord this is the place to post. But if you want an anything goes, eclectism typical of contemporary astrology the internet is your oyster. So rather than see these restrictions in an exclusively negative way ,as you seem to, I know many members take a contrary view and regard this forum as an oasis to study and discuss traditional astrology undisturbed.

Mark


thanks mark... i do see the upside in it all too and take what i can to make the best of all the info out their.. i get it... for anyone interested in my take - take a look at the midpoints on a 90 degree wheel, or consider the solar 8th with saturn/pluto, not to mention the very close square of nodal axis to same saturn.. this along with the prominent uranus, with mercury in the 5th as ruler of asc/midheaven as you note.. some of the midpoints that i can think off the top of my head - sun/mercury=pluto.. start there and work your way on, if you are interested..
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skorpio87



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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Skorpio87 wrote:
Quote:
While im not going to completely discard the idea of uranus playing a large role in john carpenter's chart, personally I don't think its the smoking gun that we are looking for. The only notable aspect that uranus really makes is its opposition to jupiter and sextile to saturn, but all the rest of the aspects that uranus makes to the other planets you mentioned are too wide in orb (and separating at that) to really have the powerful impact which you imply that they do.


I think you are excluding from consideration how exceptionally close Uranus is to the MC here even if it is retrograde. It also forms a very close parallel by latitude and declination to the MC. By longitude they form a partile conjunction and although the MC has just separated by primary motion I would still consider the conjunction as operative due to their proximity. They are also in the same term/bound. Looking at its declination Uranus is almost out of bounds here. The solar declination limit is 23°27 while Uranus is at 23°24 here.

The domicile ruler of the ASC and MC is of course Mercury in Aquarius in the 5th.

As outer planets seem to be creeping in here I would also note that John Carpenter has Pluto out of bounds. What makes this more personally significant here is that Pluto forms a tight parallel of declination to the MC.

Mark


I recognize that uranus is conjunct the MC, but tons of people have this aspect. John Carpenter's uranus is not aspecting any personal planets (although it is aspecting saturn and jupiter, somewhat significant yes), so I do not really pay it much attention. Besides, why bother using the signification of uranus when there are much better, and much more descriptive indicators in the chart? (IE the heavy presence of saturn and saturn ruled signs like capricorn/aquarian placements)

I recognize that by using placidus the 5th house ruler is mercury. Personally I don't find placidus very convincing most of the time, but to each their own.

I understand that some people want to analyze this chart using modern astrological techniques. However, I posted this thread in the traditional astrology section in order to get feedback for a traditional interpretation of the chart (I feel that the traditional indicators for this chart are plenty explanatory without including modern astrological techniques). I concede that some modern astrological techniques are useful, however I am more interested in attempting to generate conversation about traditional astrological interpretation techniques.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't just talk about Uranus and I included traditional information. As I said, a person's chart is a combination of information, and trying to simplify why he was good at horror will not be found by one placement alone, or else many people would have this same talent. Many astrologers who use traditional techniques combine them with modern information, such as the very creator or this website (Deb). The outer planets/bodies still existed during ancient times, after all, and most astrologers would agree that they help describe things like interests and character when touching personal planets. Whether or not you agree with orbs is besides the point, but those planets are all within 2-6 degrees of Uranus. In this case, I do think Uranus is vital to understand his chart. That is not always the case. If someone wants to omit that, that is their choice but I think they are missing out on important information.

A seven degree orb opposition to Saturn is weak?! Uh, OK. Perhaps I do not understand your use of the word weak. Anyone here with this separating aspect at 7 degrees want to comment on the little effect it has in their life? Eeven if received (if a retro planet is capable of that), an opposition with Saturn is significant. Venus is debilitated, but again, that is expressed in his work and is why his art is not beautiful in the typical ways of Venus, but painful and disturbing and overcoming adversity/something more powerful than the protagonist. That is the last aspect Venus made with a personal planet, so she is holding that light, and it is perhaps the most significant influence on her. She also rules the 2nd, showing his source of income is through something Venusian. Unlike some astrologers, I do not view debility as inability of a planet to do anything, but it will likely behave in ways that are out of character, at the very least (or sometimes in ways that work against the interest of the person, etc.). I think he turned the debility into something useful in his work. Also, Jupiter receiving Saturn and being so strong, helps to keep it under control and turn it into something more positive.

Ted Bundy had the same ugly Saturn except in the 12th, and received by the 1st house ruler (had Saturn been the receiver instead, that might not be so bad). He has other scary stuff in his chart but I think that especially is disturbing. Carpenter doesn't have this and his Saturn is received by Jupiter, a benefic, and Jupiter isn't L1, but I am just saying Saturn in detriment can have some potential for darkness.

Saturn is also the dispositor of the 10th/1st lord, so lords over Mercury, and also rules the 5th house of Venus/creativity while also opposing her. Personally, I think had his Saturn been in a day chart his work might have shown more depth and insight into the supernatural. His work, to me anyway, often lacks any true purpose and is just cold and hard and leaves you without really learning anything, other than maybe understanding how to survive difficult, often unrealistivc, situations. Saturn can have more clarity regarding that type of knowledge, or esoteric knowledge in general, in a day chart. However, perhaps in a fire sign and being received by dignified Jupiter (via triplicity) makes a difference. There is also a sense of humor to his work often, which I think is due to his strong Jupiter, which is angular and dignified (as was mentioned regarding the "fun" he had with his work). My nephew has that same Jupiter in Sag conjunct Uranus instead of the opposition and he is also playful and likes to shock people (and prides himself on his originality).

I also said his Mars is NOT angular, but it sounds like I might have been misinterpreted. I clearly said why I think that is important (and another thing shared by Stephen King - also 12th).

How about another viewpoint on orbs (I am assuming you use 5 degrees, which I think is incorrect and limiting):
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html
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