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Cazimi
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Cazimi Reply with quote

I've been through the past posts on combustion, so sorry to add more bytes to the topic... Narrow field question here, just Cazimi.

Philosophical arguments aside, does anyone have any "experience first" comments about Cazimi even being a valid principle in delineation?
Or is the whole concept redundant in practice?

As Lilly says, "when a Planet is within 16 minutes of the Sun, he is said to be in Cazimi, or heart of the Sun, and then it's an addition of fortune, and he is wonderous strong." (Horary book).

Which raises the question, is Lily talking specifically about its use in horary, or does the principle apply in natal work as well?

Thanks and Happy New Year.
~A.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi arvind,

good question..

i am reading a book right now on johnny cash - by robert hilburn.. great book..

anyway - here is adb's chart for cash... mercury is 17 minutes from the sun..
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cash,_Johnny

it seems like mercury functions quite well here in what i read on him.. maybe i don't completely understand how the use of cazimi has developed over the years either, or whether it was a specific horary technique, but from the book my impression is cash was considered quite bright by most everyone who speaks about him in the book.. his life was a mess on many levels too, but there is a human touch to him - maybe it is the water sign focus - that makes him a fascinating astro study..
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi james_m: Great example. Johnny Cash's Mercury is not only combust/ cazimi with a malefic Sun as ruler of the sixth house, but debilitated as well. One could infer that cazimi in this case strengthened an otherwise weak and afflicted (negative) Mercury. The close trine from the weak/debilitated Moon might account for a little positive spin, but generally in my experience the stronger/closer aspect wins.

I wonder if it would change things if Mercury ruled one the negative houses (H6, H8, H12) instead of the fourth and seventh?

I don't know a lot about his bio, but his music through his long career never grew stagnant and he was popular even in his senior years with younger generations of fans.
Best Regards,
~A.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arvind,

thanks.. yes, i think mercury operates in a really strong and helpful way in cash's chart here based on what i read.. he seemed to have horseshoes up his ass on so many levels.. i think the trine to the moon in his chart was also helpful.. the bio on him is quite fascinating and while i like reading bios to get a better feel for the important events in the persons life from an astrological angle, i have been so mesmerized by the story of his life, i have had a hard time stopping reading to check the astro!!!

this is one example where i am reminded of the question over how to balance the info one gets off a chart.. for example - mercury in pisces - debilitated, but what exactly does that mean here? mercurys rulership over the 7th house doesn't seem to impact his important relationships in any severe way.. it is true he was unfaithful to his first wife and eventually went on to marry june carter, but reading the bio i don't get the impression he was trying to be hurtful.. maybe his long term judgment was flawed and that led to the decisions he made which interfered with his first marriage.. as for mercurys connection to the 4th - his close connection with his family and parents is discussed much in the book.. he had a bit of a challenging dynamic going with his father, but adored his mom.. i guess i am trying to say that it is hard to weigh how much emphasis one is to give the concept of a planet in a sign, verses the planets position to other planets in the chart.. i think the later comes first.. food for thought..

in the case of this very close conjunction of his mercury with sun i wonder how much mercurys position influenced his health? his use of pills for a good chunk of time prior to him quiting would play into this. sun rules in the 6th and his health while generally strong - sun/mars conjunction) seems to have been adversely affected by the addiction to pills.. it seems like the pills where to deal with the uncertainties and unpredictabilities of living life as a traveling musician having to be on the road doing one nighters while never getting enough sleep as you were always either traveling or performing while little opportunity to sleep or even better - think of writing a song.. he is not a prolific writer like bob dylan, but he did write 'i walk the line' and other strong and memorable songs which would again have to go back to the position and strength of his mercury on some level!
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is only one example, but Oprah Winfrey has Venus cazimi in the second house and she is one of the richest women in the world. That's according to ADB (4:30 AM) and they give this an "A" rating.

Unfortunately, Solar Fire's Clifford database gives an entirely different birth time (7:59 PM), also rated "A" which puts an even tighter Venus cazimi in the 5th house.

Either way Venus is cazimi and she is or was the richest woman in the world.

However, I know of a non-celebrity, born the same day with Venus cazimi in the 8th house who did not become the richest woman in the world or even close. Things played out a whole lot differently.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 678

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example of Sun making a Cazimi conjunction with Venus is Gordon Ramsey, whose chart has been discussed on this board recently.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ramsay,_Gordon
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi james_m:
I agree with your assessment of JC's Mercury. I have not read the bio you mention but in general it agrees with little I know of his life details. [My Mum was a great fan].
james_m wrote:

this is one example where i am reminded of the question over how to balance the info one gets off a chart.. for example - mercury in pisces - debilitated, but what exactly does that mean here? mercurys rulership over the 7th house doesn't seem to impact his important relationships in any severe way.. it is true he was unfaithful to his first wife and eventually went on to marry june carter, but reading the bio i don't get the impression he was trying to be hurtful.. maybe his long term judgment was flawed and that led to the decisions he made which interfered with his first marriage.

Signs for me are mostly used to determine the strength of a planet, that is, can it protect and promote its natural and particular significations (house placement and rulership). Debilitated Mercury in Pisces being combust would ordinarily mean to me that Mercury cannot do this well at all, so its significations suffer greatly due more to lack of ability for that planet to project its energies in Pisces. The significations of debilitated planets manifest within an environment of restlessness, unhappiness, and general disharmony.

At least in JC's chart, the cazimi Sun does seem to promote and project Mercury's particular and natural significations that wouldn't be the case otherwise without the cazimi, but it is a mixed blessing (benefic and malefic influence) due to the Sun's rulership of the negative sixth house of disputes/health and Mercury being lord of the seventh=substance abuse and rocky relationships.
Mercury's influence on the Sun is minimal I think, because it is so weak in debilitation and combustion.
The Moon's trine is mildly beneficial to the Sun/Mercury, but it is not very strong due to the Moon's debilitation. Mars is very weak in early degrees and so lends little help too.

Tom: Thanks for pointing me to Oprah's chart. As you said it is just one chart, but the Cazimi principle seems supported in this case too. Her eleventh "house of good fortune" and additional income really gets a boost. Maybe one of the clearer charts for rich and famous I've looked at in quite awhile.

Needs more research, but in these two cases I would say that the traditional principle of Cazimi, "an addition of fortune, and he is wonderous strong." holds good.

Cheers,
~A.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks arvind,

i especially like what you have stated here and agree with you...

Arvind wrote:
The significations of debilitated planets manifest within an environment of restlessness, unhappiness, and general disharmony.

At least in JC's chart, the cazimi Sun does seem to promote and project Mercury's particular and natural significations that wouldn't be the case otherwise without the cazimi, but it is a mixed blessing (benefic and malefic influence) due to the Sun's rulership of the negative sixth house of disputes/health and Mercury being lord of the seventh=substance abuse and rocky relationships.
Mercury's influence on the Sun is minimal I think, because it is so weak in debilitation and combustion.
The Moon's trine is mildly beneficial to the Sun/Mercury, but it is not very strong due to the Moon's debilitation. Mars is very weak in early degrees and so lends little help too.

Cheers,
~A.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 678

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possible chart with the Moon Cazimi. Queen Christina of Sweden.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Christina,_Queen_of_Sweden

Example of Mars Cazimi is the singer Nick Cave, where the orb is almost exact in the noon chart so if he was born within about six hours either way Mars would still be Cazimi, the Sun moving 30 minutes in twelve hours. His time of birth is not known.

Example of Venus Cazimi is the artist Francisco de Goya.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arvind wrote:
Quote:
I've been through the past posts on combustion, so sorry to add more bytes to the topic... Narrow field question here, just Cazimi.


Actually, even your ‘narrow field question’ has come up before here a few times before. In particular these two threads I had a role in:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7005&sid=22cde21c7a8865d1f0d03aed75c6bcd5

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4348

Arvind wrote:
Quote:
Philosophical arguments aside, does anyone have any "experience first" comments about Cazimi even being a valid principle in delineation?
Or is the whole concept redundant in practice?


Its one thing to discuss the historical and philosophical origins of a technique but asking whether it works in praxis is always more subjective. We have numerous factors in a chart to examine so isolating one specific element on its own like cazimi and clarifying it as the exclusive or definitive explanation for something manifesting in a chart is an uphill challenge.

Traditionally, there are numerous ways of seeing a planet as more efficacious in a chart according to essential dignity, house placement/rulership, aspectual connection, sect, solar phase, fixed star conjunctions, antiscia etc. The traditional dignity scoring systems provide an indicator as to how these were assessed:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/schoener_dignity_scores.pdf

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

Arvind wrote:
Quote:
As Lilly says, "when a Planet is within 16 minutes of the Sun, he is said to be in Cazimi, or heart of the Sun, and then it's an addition of fortune, and he is wonderous strong." (Horary book).


I'm afraid you cannot really escape consideration of the historical and philosophical issues in regards this kind of subject. As you will have noticed in the links above the ancient and early medieval astrologers did not use the 16 or- 17 minutes- definition used by Lilly and other renaissance astrologers. Actually, even up to the later medieval period some astrologers applied a wider orb of cazimi extending half a degree from the Sun. But originally, in the ancient and early medieval period they considered planets as specially connected with the Sun if they were within a degree of each other. For example, the Perso-Arabic astrologer Sahl used this approach.

So a planet considered combust by someone working with Lilly’s approach would be cazimi according to a more ancient or early medieval outlook. I personally, work with the more ancient approach myself.

I see cazimi as just one of a number of astrological factors that link planets to solar phase. Others include oriental and occidental of the Sun, combustion/under the rays, retrograde , stationary or direct motion, planetary speed, and heliacal rising and setting.

Arvind wrote:
Quote:
Which raises the question, is Lily talking specifically about its use in horary, or does the principle apply in natal work as well?


I think its clear that Lilly and other renaissance astrologers like Johannes Schoener use the same dignity tables to assess planetary strength with both horary and natal charts.

However, we define cazimi it seems to be seen as like an oasis in a desert of combustion or calm eye in the middle of a hurricane. Planets in this way are seen as protected from the detrimental effects of combustion. And beyond that their close conjunction to the Sun is seen as highly benefic in influence.

While this situation is a unique exception to the effects of combustion for renaissance astrologers like Lilly there were several indicators of this in ancient astrology. In Hellenistic astrology planets in their ‘chariots’ ie domicile, exaltation or bound were seen as immune to the harmful beams of the Sun. So if we are looking at praxis its interesting to understand different ways to approach the effects of the Sun’s rays and cazimi.

I note James’s comment about Mercury in proximity to the Sun in the Johnny Cash’s chart. Actually, a few astrologers have made the case before that Mercury appears to be less effected by combustion than other planets due to its constant astronomical proximity to the Sun. Others such a David McCann have gone further and suggested that combustion does not operate in nativities at all. Although McCann conceded horary seems to be different. I well recall discussing this with Deborah Houlding and her strong disagreement with McCann on this point.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercuryorbit.html

As I see it the point is not that combustion has no effect at all in nativities. Its just that the frames of reference are completely different. I have long had the view that examples of lack of dignity such as being under the beams or rays of the Sun manifest differently in horary and natal charts. Philosophically I would suggest this is because fate works out differently between the short and long term time frames involved. For example, a combust and retrograde significator for the querent in a negative house is so weakening many sources suggest the matter cannot turn out favourably for the querent in a horary. After all a horary usually normally works within a timeframe of days, and at most a few weeks or at the outside months. In contrast in a nativity we are discussing at least many decades. Although in the past this might be seen as manifesting in shorter life expectancy or an indication of early death in childhood.

You can compare this to a race. In a short sprint if you just stumble and fall you are effectively out of the race. But in a race like the marathon early set backs can be made up for later. I don’t think this is guaranteed but depends on how the person expresses their free will and expresses the potential of that planet.

Below are examples of nativities with Mercury within 1 degree of the Sun which I offer to all Skyscript members to aid further research. As not all nativities listed are AA or A the conjunction may be more than 1 degree in some instances.

Composers & Musicians
-Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
-Giuseppe Verdi
-Irving Berlin
-Johnny Cash
-Jimmy Page
-Don McLean
-Carole King
-Lorenza Pavarotti
-Sonny Bono
-Lena Zavaroni
-Annie Lennox


Writers
-Edgar Allan Poe
-Marcel Proust
-Gertrude Stein
-Alan Watts
-Philip K Dick

Actors
-Sharon Tate
-Keanu Reeves
-Sophie Marceau
-Elizabeth Taylor
-Jennifer Jason Leigh
-Christopher Reeve
-Omar Sharif
-Dirk Benedict
-Tatum O'Neal
-David Jason
-Tom Baker
-Pauline Collins

Others/Misc
-Henry The Navigator-15th century Portugese explorer. First European to explore and chart African coastline.

-Thomas More-English lawyer, social philosopher, author, statesman, and noted Renaissance humanist. He was also a councillor to Henry VIII, and Lord High Chancellor of England from October 1529 to 16 May 1532. He wrote Utopia, published in 1516, about the political system of an imaginary, ideal island nation.

-Louis XVI of France-King of France
-Albert Schweitzer-German humanitarian, philosopher, physician, musician, clergyman, missionary and writer.
-Balthazar Klossowski de Rola-French artist
-Benito Mussolini-Italian Journalist/Fascist Dictator
-Bill Hicks-American Comedian
-Louis Althusser-French Philosopher
-Jacques Derrida-French Philosopher
-General Bernard Montgommery-British WWII General
-Joseph Campbell-American writer on comparative mythology
-James Hunt-British Formula One Driver
-Giorgio Armani-Italian Fashion designer
-Paris Hilton-American socialite/TV celebrity
-Emmanuel Macron-French President
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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astralwanderer



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Southwest England

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Inner Planets - Inferior and Superior Conjunctions Reply with quote

Hi there - one thing to bear in mind is the two types of conjunction for the inner planets - the superior and the inferior. So there may be two types - or styles - associated with the cazimi placement of Venus and Mercury. The inferior conjunction takes place with the inner planet retrograde and passing between the Sun and Earth (e.g. Macron's Mercury). The superior conjunction takes place with the inner planet direct and on the far side of the Sun (e.g. Cash's Mercury). The following charts place the inferior and superior conjunctions in the context of the natal chart. This module - Mercury Elemental Year - will be forthcoming in one of the next releases of Planetdance.

Emmanuel Macron



Macron has Mercury retrograde at birth and the inferior conjunction takes place a few hours after he was born (item f in the listing). This occurs in late Sagittarius. His pre-natal conjunction occurred in Libra (item e in listing) - this was a superior conjunction with Mercury direct.

Johnny Cash



Johnny Cash was born at the superior conjunction with Mercury direct, with the exact pass taking place a few hours after his birth (item f in the listing). This cazimi placement took place in early Pisces. Cash's pre-natal conjunction (item e in the listing) took place in late Sagittarius.

Cash and Macron were born 45 years and 10 months apart. They were born into similar Sun-Mercury phases. Cash's phase pattern is one step ahead of Macron's. Cash's pre-natal inferior conjunction is very close to the same degree in Sagittarius of Macron's post-natal inferior conjunction. Both men were born into a elemental phase change between Mercury's inferior and superior conjunctions in earth (inf.) and water (sup.) and the conjunctions occurring in fire (inf.) and air (sup.).

I will let people know when Planetdance is updated with this module so that you can download it and explore this cycle.
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"...the motions that are akin to the divine in us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe."

Plato, Timaeus, 90.
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astralwanderer



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Southwest England

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Mercury Elemental Year Reply with quote

Hi there - the latest release of Jean Cremer's freeware - Planetdance for Windows - now includes the Mercury Elemental Year script. This routine will produce the charts shown above, with the position of five Sun-Mercury conjunctions prior to the birth and five Sun-Mercury conjunctions post-natally shown in the wheel. Any of these ten charts can be calculated for the birthplace from directly within the module. Each conjunction is identified as inferior (IC) or superior (SC) in the listing.

You can download Planetdance from Jean's website at:

http://www.jcremers.com

Jean makes sure that Planetdance works well with Wine on Linux, so this is a good option of people that use this alternative OS.

Thanks. Ed
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"...the motions that are akin to the divine in us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe."

Plato, Timaeus, 90.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the link ed.. that is helpful to know and have a way of seeing it first hand, as opposed to using the animated feature of solar fire which will give these superior or inferior conjunctions with a bit more work...
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astralwanderer



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 132
Location: Southwest England

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Mercury Elemental Year - Planetdance Freeware Reply with quote

Thanks James - it's well worth trying Jean's software. There's some unusual and useful features. The program includes a very comprehensive research module too. Users with programming experience can contribute as well through the scripting facility that Jean developed called Astrobasic.

All the best to you. Ed
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"...the motions that are akin to the divine in us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe."

Plato, Timaeus, 90.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brigitte Macron's Venus is 23 minutes from her Sun. Does that qualify as Cazimi? Arvind's opening post on this thread says to be Cazimi a planet has to be within 16 minutes of the Sun. Is this tight orb always used?

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Macron,_Brigitte
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