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combustion, prohibition, translation of light
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 931
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: combustion, prohibition, translation of light Reply with quote

I am hoping you good horary astrologers can clear up a point of confusion for me.

Lately we saw Saturn, and now Venus, combust the sun in Capricorn; which I would read as the combust planet being in a weakened state. A faster-moving planet (Venus, Mercury, moon) approaching the sun would hit the zone of combustion and then a partile conjunction, barring retrogradation. But the sun is a fairly fast-moving planet on its own. So if the sun perfects a nice trine or sextile with a third planet (currently Mars in Scorpio) while the combust planet is still approaching the sun, do we have a case of prohibition (the combust planet hits the sun first,) a nice cazimi strengthening when the conjunction behcomes exact, or a translation of light if the sun perfects the positive aspect with the third planet first?

This question just came up for me in a relationship horary, where she's Venus, he's Mars, they've split, and she asked whether she and her ex-BF would reunite. Venus applies to a sextile with Mars. Venus is combust and close to an exact conjunction with the sun before it will reach Mars. I think the sun, however, might perfect a sextile with Mars before Venus does.

I get that there are additional chart factors to consider, but I'm unclear whether the sun would be a help or a hindrance with a combust planet. if both the sun and Venus apply to a sextile with the quesited.

Hey, thanks.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most horary astrologers would say that a combust planet is incapable of perfection, so whether or not there is prohibition is a moot point, since even if there weren't, the planet is heavily debilitated by being combust (except if cazimi). A powerless planet cannot do much. Venus and Mercury are combust the most and Deb has posted info on the dance between Venus and Sun in romance horaries. Currently Venus is oriental, which is supposed to suggest a woman who is more bold (I have that in my own chart and I am fairly bold). Men don't always respond well to oriental Venus because they often like to be the one in charge.

Also, the bigger issue is actually Jupiter regarding prohibition. I don't even have to look at the chart because I know where the planets are currently. Mars aspects Jupiter way before the Sun gets involved, although Venus being combust is another issue (does she greatly fear losing him?). I would think that maybe Venus is pretty upset about the break up and doesn't know how to fix the problem and might make it worse if she does anything further, rather than let him make a move. Mars being in its own sign would show the quesited has the upper hand and is likely thinking of himself and may act selfishly, although he receives her by exhalation. I don't know what Jupiter rules or represents but any conjunction makes me wonder about someone else getting involved in the situation. Maybe Mars is just seeking counsel with Jupiter. Jupiter can be a helpful planet and a partile conjunction adds to Mars' strength (according to Lilly). It is hard to say without more info.

You always want to keep an ephemeris handy when reading a chart, to sort of the aspects.

Also, what is Saturn in the chart? Saturn is the querent's ruler and is very strong now, so understanding how/why it is acting in the chart might be important too. Perhaps Venus wants Mars to commit to a marriage or something like that. She may carry a heavy expectation with her and not having that might be what is shattering the relationship for her with the applying combustion. She sounds to be the one debilitated here, although we don't know house placements.

What is the Moon doing? If the Moon is adding to the other semi difficult testimony, that might help to understand if it can be sorted out. All in all, prohibition between a sextile of Venus and Mars where Mars is strong and receives Venus by exhalation would at least suggest that the quesited cares for her. She does not receive back though and is combust and ruled by a strong Saturn. Sextiles are also fairly weak, which could show the mutual link between them but that it might not be strong enough for the long term.

A combust querent is one of the considerations. Sometimes the querent may misinterpret what the astrologer says or does not listen to the astrologer. They cannot be "regulated." The reading could even do further damage to the situation, possibly.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit, thanks. Your post is really helpful.

I can sort out the other chart factors as a subsequent step, and I did post here prior to checking the ephemeris. Actually, when planetary degrees are so tight like this, I might cast a chart, to see when Venus goes cazimi.

What I am picking up from your post, though, is that we can't really think of the sun as translating light, because the planet that it touches is automatically toasted. If the sun doesn't make a prohibition, the concept is close enough.

Have I got this right?

Just as a hypothetical, if we consider a situation in which Venus is leaving the sun but still within the zone of combustion, I would assume this is not as dire, because she's got the sun in her rear-view mirror.

Would this be your assessment, as well?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The background of the question are these perfections of the conjunctions and aspects:

1. Mars conjoins Jupiter at 17.55
2. The Sun sextiles Jupiter at 18.09
3. Venus sextiles Jupiter at 18.11
4. Venus conjoins the Sun at 18.54
5. Venus sextiles Mars at 19.41
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Johannes. It's really interesting to see the order in which 4 planets within a couple of degrees of one another perfect their aspects.

Interestingly, with the Mars-Jupiter conjunction up first, several people thought that Mr. Wrong had actually met someone else, as a reason why the erstwhile couple would not reunite. Since I think of Venus as normally moving faster than Mars, initially I missed that bit.

I got a PM from the querent asking me to read the chart, but clearly needed some more expert insights.

The thread in question is at:
https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1515151170
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That thread is incorrect that Venus has no dignity. She has triplicity and her dispositor is further very strong. Mars in the 7th conjunct the 8th/12th ruler to me seems he is being physical with someone else. He may be doing that out of spite or manipulation, since he is represented as Mars in Scorpio. I am curious what Saturn represents, since the Moon also applies to it. Maybe it represents starting something else that will help her forget him. Personally, I think his significator is not showing him in a very good light - a very self involved placement. I know Scorpio can be mesmerizing to some women, though. Unfortunately, even when they care about you, they can do things that hurt deeply or test you. Some people do fine with that energy but I would find it challenging as well. They are a difficult energy to understand.

The Sun on the MC can show that the truth of the matter is made public somehow, such as a lot of people hearing about her romantic situation or her wanting to express what happened in a public way.
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Tanit-- good analysis. Astrodienst is open to all persuasions of astrology, but it tends to be dominated by practitioners of modern astrology, who are not so into the "lesser" essential dignities.

Since my learning horary is an ongoing project, I'd be curious to learn what textbook you would recommend. I have Barclay, Lehman, Dunn, Louis, not to mention access to the tutorials at Skyscript. I find Lilly to be pretty indigestible, unfortunately.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am influenced by modern methods too and combine the info I have learned.

Unfortunately, I got rid of all of my books several years ago because I moved into a 240-square-foot apartment. I had a lot of books but definitely loved anything by Robert Hand and also would recommend Deb's Houses: Temples in the Sky book and Louis's book specific to horary. One book I found very useful for classical interpretation of all charts is Kevin Burk's Understanding the Birth Chart. Burk's book has classical interpretations of planets in signs that I never found anywhere else, such as what does a planet in exaltation do versus being peregrine. Online resources are great and I especially love X-Files Astrology for classical astrology. The website is hard to navigate and takes some getting used to. Bonatti's Aphorisms and Lilly's Christian Astrology are resources I used a lot when I first started. Warnock's Renaissance Astrology website has an easy to navigate area to follow sections of Lilly that are most popular and you might find that easier than scrolling through the text. My best resource is this website (Skyscript), including the articles but also the posts that talk about ideas (rather than personal charts). Many posts have links with further info. Deb has an area on her website that links to other resources too:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/study_aids.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/traditionallinks.html

If you are interested in ancient methods, Valens is a good resource too, although I always found him overly negative. X Files Astrology lists some of this information in their interpretations. My old Latin professor (my minor in college- before he retired!) Mark Riley translated this work (the first book is more so relevant):

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/2010/12/15/full-translation-of-vettius-valens-anthology-released/
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waybread



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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit, this is really helpful, thanks for putting so much thought into your response.

My situation is that I studied modern natal astrology for a long time prior to finally deciding to learn horary. Since I also wanted to at least familiarize myself with traditional western astrology, I thought to kill two birds with one stone.

(A shout-out/thanks to moderator Paul for his help, if he reads this.)

I have a lot of historical interest in the origins of horoscopic astrology, so I am familiar with Valens, Ptolemy, &c.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:

Since my learning horary is an ongoing project, I'd be curious to learn what textbook you would recommend. I have Barclay, Lehman, Dunn, Louis, not to mention access to the tutorials at Skyscript. I find Lilly to be pretty indigestible, unfortunately.


Personally my preferred book is actually Treatise 6 by Bonatti translated by Ben Dykes. Lilly is absolutely essential for his lists of signification that can be great to get your hands on for a reference, and then for his chart examples which really are unique in showing a master at work and how he brings it all together creatively to render his judgements. But for a beginner, in a weird way, I find Bonatti is just so super clear and he reiterates things so often that you cannot help but have it drilled into your head. If you just sat and read that treatise from beginning to end you would sort of instincitvely realise you've learned so much more than just how to answer the questions that he focuses on.

You'll learn automatically what receptions do, what malefics can signify and so on and there'll come times when you realise that Bonatti is painstakingly patient in having the reader assume nothing you may want to even skip ahead as you've really understood a certain point already from him having mentioned in the past.


As for this chart, I just skimmed through the answers here and I think Tanit and others have provided you with all the big pointers. Really combust planets, like others have said, are not really in a position to perfect matters unless those matters have to do with the symbolism of combustion itself: hidden matters, death, retreat, hiding etc.
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Paul. Good to "see" you again.

I got an amazon gift card for Christmas, so that should stake me to the Bonatti/Dykes translation.

Maybe I should give Lilly another try, but I just found his prose to be awfully turgid. I used to read turgid books and papers for a living, and no longer have much patience with them. On the two other astrology forums in which I participate, I try to clarify concepts for people.

Thanks for your take on combustion. I wondered if the cazimi moment of Venus might provide some hope for the lovelorn.
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Jupiterrising



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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....

Last edited by Jupiterrising on Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello:

@waybread: thanks very much for bringing our attention to this chart, it's a very interesting one.

There is an annotated version (by Deb Houlding) of Lilly's Christian Astrology here which might help with the turgidity:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/CA.html


@johannes susato: thanks for posting the perfections, really helpful for those of us fumbling around without computers!


@tanit3333 or @Paul: Does the house that the Sun rules add anything to the interpretation of combustion? Paul has outlined the general interpretations of combustion, do you then deepen the interpretation by looking at the house(s) ruled by the Sun for further explanation of the situation?

Also, I recently looked at a thread where Deb Houlding told the querent, whose significator was Mars combust, that now that cazimi was over and the Sun was moving away from her sig, that she would begin to feel better about the situation (also a breakup). I tried to find the thread but the search comes up with too many pages to wade through. If I find it again, I'll post it.

Thanks.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonbright wrote:

@tanit3333 or @Paul: Does the house that the Sun rules add anything to the interpretation of combustion? Paul has outlined the general interpretations of combustion, do you then deepen the interpretation by looking at the house(s) ruled by the Sun for further explanation of the situation?

Also, I recently looked at a thread where Deb Houlding told the querent, whose significator was Mars combust, that now that cazimi was over and the Sun was moving away from her sig, that she would begin to feel better about the situation (also a breakup). I tried to find the thread but the search comes up with too many pages to wade through. If I find it again, I'll post it.

Thanks.


Moonbright,

I would say sometimes the Sun's signification may shed some light on what it is that is overpowering/blocking or hiding the querent, but I wouldn't go so far as John Frawley, for example, who allows that the Sun when its a significator does not combust the planet. The sun always combusts in my view, and so you may find, say, that the Sun is Lord 4 and perhaps what's preventing you is something to do with family or house.
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

Wld. You pls. Tell me what you think about if L1 is Sun and Moon is combust. Also, I think there will difference between when applying Moon is combust and when separating Moon is combust, right ?

Can we say that Sun person is blocking his/ herself with his/ her own fears or overwhelms his/ herself with excessive thinking/ useless efforts etc ?

Best regards

Paul wrote:


I would say sometimes the Sun's signification may shed some light on what it is that is overpowering/blocking or hiding the querent, but I wouldn't go so far as John Frawley, for example, who allows that the Sun when its a significator does not combust the planet. The sun always combusts in my view, and so you may find, say, that the Sun is Lord 4 and perhaps what's preventing you is something to do with family or house.

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