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Tropical or sidereal zodiac
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miguel wrote:
Quote:
I will quote again from Al Biruni to confirm this:

"...the nature of pecularities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

In a way this is a rather strange statement as no "pecularities" were given to the mansions in Al-biruni's time. So it seems to be a theoretical statement only. We really have to begin with the historical picture of when and how characteristics became associated with the tropical mansions in later centuries.

It's certainly a topic of research as to whether the characteristics of tropical signs have remained the same through the centuries. This has been discussed on Skyscript before with quotes from Valens. There are opinions and observations on both sides of the question!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This looks like a good historical review of the tropical mansions, but I don't have time to read it carefully at the moment. I would welcome posts by anyone who has studied the history of what are known as the "Arabic mansions."

http://www.yeatsvision.com/Mansions.html

I'm puzzled. I see references to Dorotheus on lunar mansion sites, but I've never read anything about Dorotheus in relation to lunar mansions. Can anyone help??
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Miguel



Joined: 31 Dec 2017
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In a way this is a rather strange statement as no "pecularities" were given to the mansions in Al-biruni's time.


What are your sources for this? You say you are not familiar with the Arabic Moon mansions, but instead use the Vedic Nakshatras.

However, Al Biruni is writing as if they existed in Arabic culture, althought it's indeed possible he invented the concept of Arabian Manzil drawing from Indian sources. I am not an scholar on the subject, so I will leave this to others.


Quote:
It's certainly a topic of research as to whether the characteristics of tropical signs have remained the same through the centuries. This has been discussed on Skyscript before with quotes from Valens. There are opinions and observations on both sides of the question!


This is true, I doubt it can be properly tested. It's a matter of philosophy, do you take the meanings of the constellations in themselves or tied to the seasons? Either way the first option is a little misleading.

Some siderealists recognize there is some seasonal signification in their zodiac.
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Miguel



Joined: 31 Dec 2017
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
This looks like a good historical review of the tropical mansions, but I don't have time to read it carefully at the moment. I would welcome posts by anyone who has studied the history of what are known as the "Arabic mansions."

http://www.yeatsvision.com/Mansions.html

I'm puzzled. I see references to Dorotheus on lunar mansion sites, but I've never read anything about Dorotheus in relation to lunar mansions. Can anyone help??


Thanks for the link. I agree it would be a good idea to have the opinion of scholars on this issue.

Dorotheus is clearly a pseudonym, but you should know this. You are a scholar, right?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just found an excellent discussion of the Arabic mansions in Ben Dykes' Choices and Inceptions (Cazimi Press, 2012), pages 39-47. It would help if I'd find time to actually read the books I purchase! It will take a while to get my thoughts and research together before posting further on this topic. Thank you for your patience, Miguel.

According to Ben Dykes, "Dorotheus" (when mentioned as a source for material on the lunar mansions) isn't a pseudonym. Mansion material related to Dorotheus was apparently taken from Book 5 of Carmen. Dykes writes:

"But did the original Dorotheus use signs, mansions or even decans? My view is that he probably used the mansions or decans, since in a couple of places he mentions specific degrees before which or after which it is all right to undertake an action." (Choices and Inceptions, p. 45)

Ben Dykes has just given us a new translation of Carmen Astrologicum (2017). Another treasure from Ben who seems to be a magician in his ability to provide numerous translations of historic texts for astrologers!!
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Miguel



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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprising find. More scholarship would be needed on this issue.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miguel, before I post further I want to be sure I understand your meaning here:

Quote:
Therese wrote:
You can't adjust the stars to always remain in the same place in the tropical zodiac. That is a contradiction in logic.

Miguel wrote:
Why not? It has been done with the zodiac signs by Ptolemy, while the Arabs did it with the Arabic moon mansions. Why not with the fixed stars?

Then Miguel posted this quote from Al-biruni:
"...the nature of peculiarities which are attributed to the first [Mansion]...are peculiar to the first part of Aries and never leave this place, although the star (or stars which form the Lunar [Mansion]) may leave it. In a similar way all that is peculiar to Aries does not move away from the place of Aries, although the constellation of Aries does move away." Chronology of the Ancient Nations Sachau, trans. at 338.

So Miguel, are you saying that what the "Arabs did with the Arabic Moon" is that the meaning of each mansion remains the same today as it did centuries ago (beginning with Aries and the spring equinox) even though the original mansion stars have moved to entirely different locations in the tropical zodiac? (Now approximately 24 degrees removed from the original sidereal positions)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miguel wrote:
Quote:
Some siderealists recognize there is some seasonal signification in their zodiac.

As the sidereal astrologers I know make it a point to divorce their zodiac from the seasons, I am curious about your source for this statement? I'm referring to modern times as many factors were combined in Ptolemy's time when there was little awareness of which zodiac was referenced.
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