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19 degrees Scorpio

 
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mtscot



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 3
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: 19 degrees Scorpio Reply with quote

New guy on board. I have, for some reason become very interested in astrology again. I studied in London 1985/86 and 90/91
This looks like a great forum and I look forward to being a part of ongoing discussions.
My question today is does anyone know why 19 degrees Scorpio is considered a malefic degree?
"The accursed degree of the accursed sign"

Thanks

Scotty
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Scotty,

Can you tell me what your reference is? I’m aware that 19 Scorpio is one of the 28 degrees that Lilly defines as ‘lame’ or ‘deficient’ but I’m not sure if this is what you mean.

Hi Kim,

If the tradition extends as far back as Lilly’s day I don’t see how it can relate Serpens because that was only at 17 Scorpio in his era. But a link with the fixed star Acrab, also known as Graffias from the constellation Scorpio is plausible. According to Ptolemy this is of the nature of Mars and Saturn and it is reputed to have a very malevolent nature. Al Biruni also mentions the area between 15-19 Scorpio as being injurious to the eyes because of the link with this star but whether that’s relevant depends upon how old this definition is.
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the original quotation is from Charubel - but it's repeated in numerous twentieth century astrology books. That would put Serpentis at about 19 Scorpio, as the first publication of Charubel was in the Astrologer's Magazine in 189whatever.

Kim
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does one, for teh fixed stars, only consider conjucntions with planets, or also conjunctions with house cusps?
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mtscot



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 3
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim and Deb,

I heard it from an astrologer, Dr Eric, Morse in London 1991. Also in the book "The only way to learn astrology volume II "by March & McEverers
At the end of the book they talk about important fixed stars.
The quote. "North Scale - brilliant mind, the accursed degree. 18 Scorpio 59".

I thought Eric had said it was a Lilly reference.

Hopes this helps.

Thanks

Scotty
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kim,

I think you are right. But what I’m now wondering is whether a 20th century tradition developed on the back of an older one.

Thanks for the references Scotty. The March and McKevers quote isn’t very helpful because the North Scale (of Libra) is generally considered fortunate, with a Jupiter/Mercury influence. That star wouldn’t define a degree as ‘accursed’ but it is presently at 19.22 Scorpio so they have obviously related its position to an older tradition. (In fact 19.22 Scorpio is the 20th degree; the 19th covers 18.00-18.59 Scorpio, but the NS would have been within that frame when their book was published).

This doesn’t seem to be a Lilly reference – not in the sense that he singled it out as ‘accursed’; but as I mentioned earlier he does include a listing to it as one of the lame/deficient degrees of which he writes:

Quote:
Called by some azimene degrees, … the meaning whereof is thus, if in any question you find him that demands the question, or in a nativity, if you find the native defective in any member, or infected with an inseparable disease, halting, blindness, deafness, &c., you may then suppose the native hath either one of these azimene degr. ascending at his birth, or the lord of the Ascendant, or the Moon in one of them. In a question or nativity, if you see the querent lame naturally, crooked, or vitiated in some member, and on the sudden you can in the figure give no present satisfaction to your self, do you then consider the degree ascending, or degree wherein the Moon is in, or the lord of the Ascendant, or principal lord of the nativity or question, and there is no doubt that you shall find one or more of them in azimene degrees. (CA., p.118)


The notion of a physical impediment or blindness makes the Al Biruni reference of interest. He writes (v. 460) that the area between 15-19 degrees Scorpio brings harm to the eyes because of the influence from the star ‘between the eyes of Scorpius’. This would be Acrab/Graffias, which was at 19 Scorpio in Al Biruni’s day, is located in the forehead of the Scorpion, has a very negative reputation and a Mars-Saturn nature.
I’m not convinced of this connection but for some time I’ve been meaning to do some deeper research into how these degrees which are claimed to be deep, lame, increasing or decreasing fortune, bright and smokey etc., originated. If they have developed out of fixed star positions we are left with the dilemma of whether they remain valid because of an accumulation of symbolism, or ought to be updated.
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Haku,

Sorry, I missed your question. Wiliam Lilly thought that the conjunctions of fixed stars with house cusps were very important.
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mtscot



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 3
Location: USA

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim and Deb,

I heard it from an astrologer, Dr Eric, Morse in London 1991. Also in the book "The only way to learn astrology volume II "by March & McEverers
At the end of the book they talk about important fixed stars.
The quote. "North Scale - brilliant mind, the accursed degree. 18 Scorpio 59".

I thought Eric had said it was a Lilly reference.

Hopes this helps.

Thanks

Scotty
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Hi Haku,

Sorry, I missed your question. Wiliam Lilly thought that the conjunctions of fixed stars with house cusps were very important.


thank you. i ws afraid so. i have scheat conjucnt my descendant Sick

but spica conjucnt the cusp of my 2d... maybe there is still hope financially. (even though it's hard to believe that) Confused
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siraxi



Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Romania

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also very interested in this Serpentis thing.

Last year I have experienced a so-called energetic attack, something that doesn't happen to me. I had just a few of those in my entire life. Mars was at 19.05 Scorpio (Dec 9, 2004). Coincidence ? Maybe.

Another occurence of this degree was in a horary chart: the querent described that she had enemies that were harming her - the Descendant was at 19.45 Scorpio. Coincidence ? Maybe. But again ?

It seems to me that the 19th degree is still active, regardless of the slow motion of the fixed stars. It may be something with that degree. What do you say ?
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Pocket Dragon



Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 48

Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have Venus at 19 Degrees Scorpio, and I'm proud of it! Laughing

I must say I haven't noticed any real malefic influence. My experience of it has been pretty much the same as the standard interpretation of Venus in Scorpio.
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Vyri



Joined: 01 Nov 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Oregon

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serpentis

Good reference material by Beven website-included is Serpentine; (although not specifically named in the discussion of the 'Accursed Degree') = Inconjunct the Exalted degree of the Sun etc.; things go wrong of planets near the degree. Also Serpentine which is at or about 21 degrees Scorpio. Unuk of the book Fixed Stars by Ebertin - Hoffman
Via Combusta reference material by Beven; website member of Facebook

Vyri
All the best alway






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