Gender and Astrology

1
Hello everyone, I hope this potentially controversial topic finds you well.

I have had an ongoing struggle in my metaphysical studies and meditations on why many people throughout history have applied gender to whole star constellations and metaphysical elements with gendered qualities (male and female or feminine and masculine).

From my experiences, this simply does not make sense and is particularly nonsensical when you take in to consideration that we are applying human genders and concepts that can change or have variations in different cultures (not to mention alien species, if you believe in them).

For example, I often hear the element of water as being "feminine" in nature. What does this actually mean? Is yielding and adaption an inherently feminine trait? What does it mean if it is? I myself have strong water in all astrological systems that utilize elements in such a fashion (Pisces moon in Vedic and sidereal, Yin water rabbit day master in Chinese Bazi, huge Scorpio stellium in modern tropical Western), and yet I don't consider myself a "feminine" person. I don't want to give the impression that this is just about me, even though it is something that personally bothers me and I'm a particular example of this subject.

When examples are given of constellations and elements having genders and qualities, they are usually very vague, rely on contextual cultural stereotypes, or could, in truth, be applied to anyone.

Concerning Yin and Yang, here is an excellent article articulating what I'm talking about: https://www.embodyingman.com/men-arent- ... arent-yin/

One of the better ways to tackle this disparity between elements and constellations that I have come across is using polarities such as "negative" and "positive" or "introverted" and "extroverted". These concepts, I think, work much better without the baggage and preconceptions that labelling them with human genders and concepts.

I would like to hear other users' thoughts on this confusing subect.

Please note that this is not in response or inspired by gender politics or any related discussions.

2
Hi Tsukii

In the world view of the ancients, it is actually not so much that male and female characteristics as recognized in the human world were projected on metaphysical elements, rather, gender as we know it was seen a manifestation of universal principles. Which is the opposite, if you come to think of it.

Personally, I don't have an issue with that view as long as it takes into account the great variability that exists on an individual level. As astrologers, seeing the many factors that contribute the uniqueness of any given chart, we should not be hardpressed to appreciate that fact.

Some of the best evidence for cosmic gender indeed being expressed on the human level may be found in the research of Dr. Jonas who showed that the sex of a child depends on the Moon being in a male or female sign during conception.

https://thegenderexperts.com/blogs/news ... oon-phases
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3
Michael Sternbach wrote:Hi Tsukii

In the world view of the ancients, it is actually not so much that male and female characteristics as recognized in the human world were projected on metaphysical elements, rather, gender as we know it was seen a manifestation of universal principles. Which is the opposite, if you come to think of it.

Personally, I don't have an issue with that view as long as it takes into account the great variability that exists on an individual level. As astrologers, seeing the many factors that contribute the uniqueness of any given chart, we should not be hardpressed to appreciate that fact.

Some of the best evidence for cosmic gender indeed being expressed on the human level may be found in the research of Dr. Jonas who showed that the sex of a child depends on the Moon being in a male or female sign during conception.

https://thegenderexperts.com/blogs/news ... oon-phases
There really is no such thing as universal principles in the vast multiverse where concepts and ideas can change on a metaphysical whim, especially so if you believe in alternate realities, alien species (as I believe I mentioned before), etc. Quantum physics has also been nicely working to undo a lot of previously held human-centric beliefs in what we previously knew.

I study at least two forms of traditional astrology and know well the concept of humans applying human gender and qualities to non-human things.

Just because the ancients had this primitive understanding, does this mean we have to continue this practice? This isn't about denying human gender but realizing that human gender only exists as a human experience and biological state.

I reviewed the link you posted but I could not find any actual sources or data for the experiments that were conducted. Anecdotally, I have a Pisces moon sidereally, but an Aries moon tropically, yet am born male (the article curiously states both Pisces and Aries as being female(?) signs).

Here is an interesting article about how reality is possibly quite subjective, which may prove interesting: https://phys.org/news/2019-11-quantum-p ... oesnt.html

4
hi tsukii,

you raise an interesting topic! i think it is more philosophical in nature, but regardless, it is interesting what you raise... i read your first post and didn't automatically feel motivated to reply, but now i see michael and you have made a few more comments on this...

i like your link in the last post and i would like to quote the title which i have been saying here at skyscript for many years - "Quantum physics: Our study suggests objective reality doesn't exist" let me repeat the part i have been saying which is much the same - we only have a subjective viewpoint and all viewpoints are subjective in nature as i see it... in other words - "objective reality doesn't exist"... this is my personal belief...

regarding the male-female breakdown, the yin-yang symbol and etc. etc... i think we are all both at the same time and no one in spite of what there physical body is - are all of one or the other only... we are a mix of all of this... people will take symbols and impose their viewpoints on this - right or wrong.... but this is their own subjectivity imposing itself.. that is how i see the first article you linked to... people can impose any idea they want onto some symbol.. it makes it neither right or wrong, but more a reflection on who they are..

i read an interesting book a month or so ago - the left hand of darkness by ursala le guin... it explores life on a different planet where everyone is the same sex except for 2 days out of the month! it was written in the late 60's i believe... it is a fascinating idea to explore - transgender - way before this became a topic as it is more today...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness

interestingly taoism influenced much of her sci fi writing.. you might enjoy the book...

these ideas of male and female are just ideas or symbols to convey an idea... no one has to be attached to any of it, or take any of it in a literal sense.... i think this is why i like to emphasize how our own subjectivity is the ultimate voice we hear and need to be in harmony with... well, i am not sure if i said anything of any use or value to you, but it 's an interesting topic that you bring up.. cheers james

5
james_m wrote:hi tsukii,

you raise an interesting topic! i think it is more philosophical in nature, but regardless, it is interesting what you raise... i read your first post and didn't automatically feel motivated to reply, but now i see michael and you have made a few more comments on this...
It has certainly been a difficult topic to discuss with some people unwilling or not having the prerequisite perceptiveness to understand the point I'm bringing up (does that sound arrogant?).
i like your link in the last post and i would like to quote the title which i have been saying here at skyscript for many years - "Quantum physics: Our study suggests objective reality doesn't exist" let me repeat the part i have been saying which is much the same - we only have a subjective viewpoint and all viewpoints are subjective in nature as i see it... in other words - "objective reality doesn't exist"... this is my personal belief...
I'll be the first to profess that I am not well read at all on quantum physics or mechanics, but what I do read often resonates with me in a particular way so it motivates me to research it more.
regarding the male-female breakdown, the yin-yang symbol and etc. etc... i think we are all both at the same time and no one in spite of what there physical body is - are all of one or the other only... we are a mix of all of this... people will take symbols and impose their viewpoints on this - right or wrong.... but this is their own subjectivity imposing itself.. that is how i see the first article you linked to... people can impose any idea they want onto some symbol.. it makes it neither right or wrong, but more a reflection on who they are..

I disagree with the male-female part, but energetically, I agree with the idea that we are both a mixture of varying polarities and exist in a peculiar crossroads between the two (or more, who knows?).
i read an interesting book a month or so ago - the left hand of darkness by ursala le guin... it explores life on a different planet where everyone is the same sex except for 2 days out of the month! it was written in the late 60's i believe... it is a fascinating idea to explore - transgender - way before this became a topic as it is more today...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness
I remember reading something similar in an ancient Greek or Roman pre-cursor to science fiction where there was an all male species that occupied the moon and had strange means of reproduction. If we can imagine such things, imagine how much stranger the rest of the multiverse can be?
interestingly taoism influenced much of her sci fi writing.. you might enjoy the book...
I actually read a very interesting Taoism/yin-yang article recently as well: https://www.embodyingman.com/men-arent- ... arent-yin/
these ideas of male and female are just ideas or symbols to convey an idea... no one has to be attached to any of it, or take any of it in a literal sense.... i think this is why i like to emphasize how our own subjectivity is the ultimate voice we hear and need to be in harmony with... well, i am not sure if i said anything of any use or value to you, but it 's an interesting topic that you bring up.. cheers james
The problem with these symbols is that most people do not realize the extent of what they're saying when they label things as masculine or feminine.

For example, official definitions of feminine include:

"having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women."

"characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women"

"having characteristics that are traditionally thought to be typical of or suitable for a woman"

This will give many people the wrong idea if we agree that elements, planets, constellations, etc, don't have an actual gender.

6
tsukii wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:Hi Tsukii

In the world view of the ancients, it is actually not so much that male and female characteristics as recognized in the human world were projected on metaphysical elements, rather, gender as we know it was seen a manifestation of universal principles. Which is the opposite, if you come to think of it.

Personally, I don't have an issue with that view as long as it takes into account the great variability that exists on an individual level. As astrologers, seeing the many factors that contribute the uniqueness of any given chart, we should not be hardpressed to appreciate that fact.

Some of the best evidence for cosmic gender indeed being expressed on the human level may be found in the research of Dr. Jonas who showed that the sex of a child depends on the Moon being in a male or female sign during conception.

https://thegenderexperts.com/blogs/news ... oon-phases
There really is no such thing as universal principles in the vast multiverse where concepts and ideas can change on a metaphysical whim, especially so if you believe in alternate realities, alien species (as I believe I mentioned before), etc. Quantum physics has also been nicely working to undo a lot of previously held human-centric beliefs in what we previously knew.

I study at least two forms of traditional astrology and know well the concept of humans applying human gender and qualities to non-human things.

Just because the ancients had this primitive understanding, does this mean we have to continue this practice? This isn't about denying human gender but realizing that human gender only exists as a human experience and biological state.

I reviewed the link you posted but I could not find any actual sources or data for the experiments that were conducted. Anecdotally, I have a Pisces moon sidereally, but an Aries moon tropically, yet am born male (the article curiously states both Pisces and Aries as being female(?) signs).
Obviously, both males and females can have the Moon in either a male or a female sign in their natal chart. An individual's gender depends on the Moon's respective position during conception, according to Dr. Jonas' research.

The listing of Aries amongst female signs is a mistake. Obviously, Scorpio should take its place in the female part of the list (not mentioned at all, whereas Aries is mentioned twice overall).

Dr. Jonas' survey is based on the tropical zodiac.

I may be able to provide further sources on Dr. Jonas' well known research later, however, a quick search should easily lead to such for anybody genuinely interested.
Here is an interesting article about how reality is possibly quite subjective, which may prove interesting: https://phys.org/news/2019-11-quantum-p ... oesnt.html
I agree with the view that we tend to perceive reality through the filter of our beliefs, yet we can't help creating systems of categories in order to deal with things effectively.

And the male/female distinction existing on each level (spiritual, mental, physical) is one of those conception that does make sense to me and that I therefore personally accept. It is elaborated on e.g. in the Kybalion, one of the more important Hermetic texts published in more modern times.

Whereas I generally find Uranian ideas of 'gender fluidity' (so on vogue nowadays) rather confusing. But hey, whatever floats your boat... :)

By the way, I may not have time to continue contributing to this thread much longer. At any rate, I agree to disagree.

Cheers

Michael
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7
Actually, the more I think about it... If you happen to be a male hetero individual that's into women (no euphemism intended, ok?), and you don't appreciate the innate (fathomless, for all intents and purposes) differences between boys and girls... Well, I'd say you are in for alot of trouble!

But again, that's just me, be free to consider me a spiritual dinosaur or something... :)
Last edited by Michael Sternbach on Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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