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Will my mother recover from this illness?

 
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Harlequin



Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 118

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:36 pm    Post subject: Will my mother recover from this illness? Reply with quote

11th. October 2021, 4:34 pm, Worcester, UK. 18 degress 50 minutes Aquarius rising.

The querent's mother is very old and frail, has dementia and is currently in hospital with pneumonia. The querent asked, "Will my mother recover from this illness?

The mother is represented by lord 10, Jupiter, at 22 degrees Aquarius and Rx in the 1st. house. With her being so old and frail it seemed sensible to check whether she was going to die. Lord 8, Venus, makes no aspect to Jupiter. The turned eighth lord, Mercury, is separating from a trine with Jupiter, suggesting the worst is over and she will recover.

However, both Mercury and Jupiter are Rx and both will soon turn direct, and when they do Mercury will apply to trine Juptier again. I fear this will signify her passing. Am I mistaken?
H.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 565

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harlequin,

I agree with you, the worst is behind her.
- The Sun, frailed vitality just moved away from Mars and applies by trine to JupiterL1
- MercuryR L8 moving away from JupiterR L1
- The Moon is trine Fortuna and also to the Part of Sickness 29Lib21 but her mental condition may deteriorate as the Moon is moving in Detriment in Capricorn.
- Her 6th House Lord - Venus in Detriment in her 12th conjunct SN and the Part of Death 1 Sag 58 - It shows the chronic disease and it says she will die in hospital or nursing home.

According to Ptolemy's calculations, the Sun is the Hyleg in her chart. I would watch when the Sun will enter Sagittarius to conjunct Part of Death, SN and VenusL6 as a critical moment for her.
That's also the time when MercuryL8 will come back Direct to trine JupiterL1 portending a peaceful death.

Please don't quote me on this. The time of her death is really a long shot for me here. If you have her birthchart, check the midpoint Mars/Saturn as it moves by hard aspect to her natal Sun, Moon or ASC.

Blessings and good luck,
Ouranos
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Harlequin



Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos, thank you. Unfortunately I don't have her birth chart.

Despite the chart giving a positive answer to the querent's question, (Will my mum recover from this illness?: yes, she will recover, turned lord 8 is moving away from Jupiter, I am reluctant to give her this answer because of Mercury and Jupiter turning direct very soon and once more applying to trine. I fear that this time she will not survive when turned lord 8, Mercury, perfects the trine.

As they do not apply to aspect in this chart, it's very difficult to give a timing. I guess the best answer to give the querent is yes, she's just survived a life-threatening episode but be prepared for another one soon which she might not survive, given her frailty and age, so be prepared for the worst.
H.
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maleja.rangel



Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Bogotá

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

What I have notice with this kind of situations where Mercury is retro is that the conclusion comes when mercury being direct goes and perfect the matter. So probably, this time there isn't much time left for her and her health altough she is recovering it will deteriote again faster than we might think. Also, the chart was casted with mercury at 14 degrees, so check what happen when mercury direct go trought 14 degrees so that's around 25th Octuber, probably the person that asked for your help will worry again for her mother health or what he might think that is a recover, isn't one.
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Harlequin



Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Maleja.rangel.

I spoke to the querent today. She went and visited her mum today in hospital. The doctors said she is improving, which the chart shows, and they are thinking of discharging her into a nursing home. But I cautioned the querent that there was likely to be another crisis for her mum when Mercury trines Jupiter very soon. I think the querent is prepared for her mum's passing, she says it's very distressing seeing her mum suffering and thinks it would be a blessing for her to pass peacefully. We shall see when Mercury and Jupiter perfect the trine soon.
H.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 565

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In her chart, MercuryL8 (death) gets a score of -22 in Ptolemy's table.
- Retrograde
- Peregrine
- Oriental
- Combust
- conjunct Mars (The pause Retro to prevent the conjunction for now)
- Besieged
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maleja.rangel



Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Bogotá

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos, would you mind if I ask you something? Probably this is very novice thing to ask, but I’m learning, you said in her chart Mercury gives a -22 score and explained why, but in this case Mercury will leave that state and will recover from being combust and all the things you mention. Does it change the outcome? Probably if mercury would apply again in such a conditions will show a bad death, but he won’t be in that conditions, so will show a peaceful death?

Thank you
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard to say Maleja,
If you read Ivy Jacobson - Simplified Horary Astrology p. 241, 242 she has several aphorisms under
Will the patient recover? and Will there be a death soon?
Her mother has several red flags by planetary conditions in her chart.
I am no expert in predicting death nor do I feel comfortable doing so. I am just echoing what I have learned or read in horary books.

And timing in a chart can be hours, days, weeks, months, years (Symbolic)
Or it can be the ephemeris time (Transits)
Just like everybody's natal chart, we have an expiry date.
Even if some aspects improve by planetary motion, there are indicators you cannot change. The radix of the question is a moment in time, the starting point, the root from which you build your judgment.

For example, the ruler of the 6th in the 12th (chronic illness)
Or the Moon in a critical degree (29th) about to move in Capricorn (Detriment).
Or the ruler of the 8th (Mercury R) conjunct Mars combust and besieged.

As for Timing
If days, you can say in about 2 days and 1/2.
If years, each unit or degree will represent 1 year.
If transits, you have the real time when the aspect will perfect.

You have already identified Mercury perfecting the trine to Jupiter at the end of November. This is also the time when the Sun will enter Sagittarius to conjunct her Venus (ruling the 6th in the 12th), SN and the Part of Death.
You have 2 timings saying the same thing here.

Question remains whether or not we have picked up the right significators but my understanding is that this will be a 'critical' time for her.
Normally, we base our judgment on a combination of factors not just one.

And for most of us, we fear pain more than death.
The Greek philosopher Epicurus argued that death cannot touch us because “while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist.” Since death cannot touch us it cannot be bad. Fear is rational only for something bad. So Epicurus concludes that fearing death is pointless.
Or to quote an old woman who left this message for her children 'Don't cry, I know where I am going!"
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Last edited by Ouranos on Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Will my mother recover from this illness? Reply with quote

Harlequin wrote:
However, both Mercury and Jupiter are Rx and both will soon turn direct, and when they do Mercury will apply to trine Juptier again. I fear this will signify her passing. Am I mistaken?
H.


But before all this, the Sun will, by his trine with Jupiter, prohibit the trine of
Mercury.

Nevertheless this could be very dangerous, because the Sun could be seen
as positioned in the 8th, and the Sun is very bad being peregrine and in his
fall.
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maleja.rangel



Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Bogotá

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos, I agree with you about the other factors, I also will read Simplified Horary Astrology, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me.
I wonder why people try to get time in Horary Charts, I find that weird, if time is something created by humans, isn’t something that the universe care about, is it? So why would the chart give us a time if in the universe there isn’t such a thing called time?


You explained everything so well. And with the final teaching you gave a big light of wisdom, wisdom that I did not see until today.


Last edited by maleja.rangel on Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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maleja.rangel



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Location: Bogotá

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes, Im trying to understand what you said, Sun trine with Jupiter but in the process Mercury still retrograde so isn’t really a prohibition, is it?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I don't understand you, Maleja.Rangel.

Why should the Sun not prohibit Mercury from trining Jupiter?

Mercury will apply to Jupiter after his second station. But BE-
FORE he can perfect the trine, the Sun has perfected his own
trine with Jupiter being much nearer to him by dgrees amd in
time.

Please, explain your problem, that I can't see as yet.
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maleja.rangel



Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Bogotá

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don’t take my words like a final thing, because I’m just analyzing and it’s exactly what you are saying, Mercury was retrograde when the sun trine Jupiter, how can exist a prohibition when Mercury is going away and not applying? Mercury will apply to Jupiter but the trine between sun and Jupiter didn’t happen when mercury was applying, the trine happened when mercury was retrograde.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 565

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sun trine Jupiter is almost partile so we saw that the prohibition already happened.
She was transfered to a nursing home (JupiterL1 R in her 4th)

Anthony Louis explains the prohibition here...
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2021/03/04/prohibition-in-horary-astrology/

"Lilly’s delineation of “prohibition,” namely that “the matter propounded is hindered and retarded.” Note that Lilly does not say that the matter is completely negated or rendered impossible, although that is one of the possible outcomes. The dictionary definition of “hinder” is “to create difficulties, resulting in delay or obstruction,” and the definition of “retard” is “to delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment.” Finally, the word “impedite” is an obsolete form of “impede,” which means “to hinder, obstruct, delay or prevent.”

The word 'prohibition' is misleading in English as if it prevents and only prevents. Historically, the Prohibition in the 20's did not prevent people from drinking, it only put obstacles to get some booze. Like a steeplechase that puts ditches and hedges in a horserace.

My understanding is that she will not die now (in the hospital) but after she got transfered to a nursing home.
Jacobson describes Jupiter in the 4th as "favors from the family and a generous adjustment in the matter inquired about and the way it ends."
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maleja.rangel wrote:
Please don’t take my words like a final thing, because I’m just analyzing and it’s exactly what you are saying, Mercury was retrograde when the sun trine Jupiter, how can exist a prohibition when Mercury is going away and not applying? Mercury will apply to Jupiter but the trine between sun and Jupiter didn’t happen when mercury was applying, the trine happened when mercury was retrograde.

Time of the question:
1. Mercury separating from Jupiter, the Sun applying to Jupiter.
2. The Sun completes his trine with Jupiter.
3. After this Mercury turns direct and perfects a Trine with Jupiter.

Too late, because the Sun intervenes before Mercury could perfect his trine.
That Mercury separated and applied again (far beyond their orbs, by the
way), cannot heal the Sun's prohibition.
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