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The nodes in Primary Directions

 
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Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 44
Location: Israel

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: The nodes in Primary Directions Reply with quote

A quick question for any of you who use primary directions:
Do you ever use the nodes as promissors or as significators in PD?

The nodes are not planets, of course, but other symbolic points are known to be used in this predictive technique; like the part of fortune for example.

I know of a few charts where the direction of the nodes to the angles has brought forth some interesting result (event).

Thanks!
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 497

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Nodes in Primary Directions Reply with quote

Yes, they are important to be included... Here are a few examples using my own chart. The Node stands in for associations, often (but not necessarily) familial, often (but not necessarily) maternal in some way.

Grandfather dies: pd Node sesquisquare 8th (0° 3' orb)

Birth of Son: pd Jupiter trine Node (0° 3')

Marry: pd Asc conjunct Node (0° 10')

Grandmother dies: pd Pluto conjunct Node (0° 4')

When my pd Node contacted Jupiter, I met my future, foreign wife, overseas!

When my Node would by primary-directed conjoin the IC, one could expect a major, emotional event involving a family member (or close associate)... the event was that my Brother died suddenly.

Positive planets/houses (I can only speak for Topo cusps) contacting the Nodes are usually gaining a new association somehow (often represented by the planet/house) or something positive relating to some existing personal association. Negative planets/houses contacting the Nodes are usually deaths or separations or some new association often symbolized by the planet/house.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: The nodes in Primary Directions Reply with quote

No, I don't. And for what it's worth, I haven't seen the Lot/Part of Fortune (or any other Lot) work consistently in directions either, whatever Ptolemy says.

Naturally, the more points (and aspect angles) you include, the greater the likelihood that something will hit something around the time that something happens in your life. The real question is, does the symbolism of the direction match the event well enough to be reliably used in prediction?

(A recent real-life example: a client had given me some life events to verify her time of birth, including the date of her marriage. I checked and found:

- Asc to the trine of the moon, ruler of the 7th, in the terms of Venus
- Moon to the trine of the sun in the terms of Venus in the 7th house

but also:

- Asc to the body of Saturn with latitude

The last direction was definitely the odd one out, so I asked what had gone wrong in her life at the time she got married. She replied that she hadn't wanted to get married at all and didn't love her husband: she only accepted him in order to escape life with her harsh mother and grandmother, and once she had, she felt that there was nothing she could do to prevent it going ahead; she just had to do her duty. That's Saturn!)
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 681

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The North Node returns to its own place every 18.6 years. The eclipses, like the New Moons, also have their return cycles, the most striking being the Metonic returns in which an eclipse recurs on the same day and the same degree as it did 19 years previously. And halfway in this cycle, the positions are inverted. They show periods in life where we meet challenges to grow and times when something old dies and something new begins.

If we look at the planets in our charts, some will be between the NN and the SN (North Latitude). Others between the SN and the NN (South Latitude).

"Identifying with the South Node position too strongly means leading a life which depends on using the abilities we already have to keep us safe from risk, challenge and therefore growth; whose main priority is comfort; whose mode is a habitual and largely automatic response to life.
Taking up the challenge of the North Node, on the other hand, brings with it a life which feels meaningful and open to new experience; which takes opportunities to develop innate talents and new insights and skills through responding positively to the impetus for change; whose mode is of acceptance of conflict and discomfort as a necessary part of developing as a person." (Ann Whitaker on Astro.com)

And since the Nodal axis is a pair, I will look at the rulers involved to see how these transitions periods will go
SU/SA Leo, Aquarius
MO/SA Cancer, Capricorn
VE/MA Aries/Libra - Taurus, Scorpio
ME/JU Gemini/Sagittarius - Virgo/Pisces

The astrologer Alain Hades (1932-2019) wrote a series of books on each pair.
It is obvious here that the SU/SA and MO/SA axis will revolve around issues of separations or commitments and family matters. VE/MA around relationships and ME/JU on mental processes and place in society. And you will see patterns emerging in your life with the Nodal cycle.

They can show events but more likely 'trends'.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 4017
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is just a random comment... i haven't been looking at primary directions lately, but i did have an interesting experience that i wanted to understand astrologically.. it was a very specific event and the only way it made sense astrologically was via a direct connection of south node to natal saturn... the true node as opposed to mean node was used.. it was the only way it made sense...it was an exact conjunction.. it was via sidereal as it didn't work in tropical... like i said - just a random comment fwiw... personally i would use the nodes in pd's, but only conjunction and opposition aspects... i know parashara uses the backward trine for ketu and forward to rahu, but i don't have any real experience with them in primary directions - yet - as memory serves..
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Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 44
Location: Israel

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean:
except for the following thing:
"pd Node sesquisquare 8th (0° 3' orb)"
most of the things you've written seem quite impressive. Are your nodes somehow connected to the 7th house, to L7 or to Venus?

Martin:
Thanks for replying.
Somehow I'm not surprised that you don't usually consider the nodes in PDs.
I agree with most things you've said though.
Question - do you usually use angles (AC, MC, DC, IC) as promissors and planets as significators? and if yes, do you consistently get impressive results? And, do you usually consider the term a planet is in? Either as a promissor or a significator? it makes intuitive sense, if we consider the distribution through the terms technique, I guess.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I never use the angles as promissors, but what I do use is traditional terminology. So the significator is the point signifying something, and the promissor is the point promising (or threatening) something for the topic signified, irrespective of which point is kept fixed and which is moved with the primary motion; and the significator is always mentioned first.

So assuming ordinary, direct motion, Asc to the trine of the moon, for instance, means that the point where the natal trine of the moon falls is rotated with the primary motion (clockwise) until it reaches the Asc. This is envisioned symbolically as the Asc moving forward through the zodiac (hence 'direct') until it reaches the trine of the moon.

Adjusting to this way of thinking and speaking may take a little effort at first, but the pay-off is that it enables you to read all the premodern or early modern authors on directions and actually understand what they are saying. Which, on this forum especially, has to be a good thing. Wink

Later edit: I see that I forgot to reply to the bit about the terms. Yes, these days (unlike when I wrote my Primary Directions book) I always consider the terms through which a significator is directed. This is not a separate technique, but just the standard way of using directions, all the way back to the early Greek authors (though some tended to put more emphasis on the divisor = term ruler, while others, like Ptolemy, gave more importance to the promissor = body or aspect encountered). The new terminology that has emerged over the past 25-30 years or so (including 'circumambulations' and 'distributions') unfortunately obscures this continuity.
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Last edited by Martin Gansten on Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 497

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Primary Directions Reply with quote

Thanks.

My Node is in the same House/Sign as Venus and directly across from the 8th Cusp, where Saturn sits; so it's quite possible that nodal action (for me) has more death connotations than would be average. However, in PDs it is quite often malefics with the Nodes connotating negative circumstances (often including death) through association.

Some more examples from other charts...

My Wife:

Separation from Mother, pd Saturn-Node (0° 3')

Reunited with Mother, pd Moon-Node (0° 6')

My Mother-in-Law:

Gets married, pd Pluto-Node (0° 3')

Birth of Daughter, pd Asc-Node (0° 5')

A client:

Birth of Son, pd Node-Moon (0° 4')

Attended Sister's Wedding overseas, pd Node-MC (0° 3')

Long-time Boyfriend moves out, pd Node-Uranus (0° 4')

Sudden romantic affair, pd Uranus-5th (0° 3')

Reveals said affair to long-time boyfriend, pd Saturn-Node (0° 6')

Another client:

Gets married, pd Node-Jupiter (0° 5')

Separation, pd Uranus-Node (0° 4')

Friend:

Birth of Sister, pd Node-3rd (0° 5')

Death of Grandmother, pd Node-8th (0° 2')

Death of Grandfather, pd MC-Node (0° 1')

Death of Mother, pd Moon-8th (0° 9') & pd Node-Asc (0° 0')

[average orb 0° 3' 56"]
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Dima Gur



Joined: 12 Dec 2014
Posts: 44
Location: Israel

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean: Thanks for the extra feedback.

Martin:
Interesting, you've got me there going for a loop, refreshing my memory on distributions.
It would be hard for me to adjust as I'm quite used to promissors being directed to significators. Also on Solar Fire, when you animate a chart, it seems that the promissors actually move in direct diurnal motion until they reach significators.
Although, I do get your point, as the '4-minutes / 1-degree equals a year movement' is actually of the significator, till it reaches a promissor.

Anyhows Very Happy
I've also wanted to ask a couple of things:
[1.] You probably don't use converse directions (the modern kind where you move the chart counter clockwise as if time went backwards), right?
[2.] When I use PDs I usually look for conjunctions between promissors to {a.} angles {b.} luminaries and {c.} planets, in that order, but you seem to be using all of the Ptolemaic aspects. Do you think they are all equal and produce comparable and observable effects in the native's life?

P.S. I was sure for some reason that you're German (maybe it's that academic rigor Wink ), but I see that your signature shows that you're from Sweden. Always been a fan of Sweden, you guys are on my travel list. Hope to visit Stockholm till I'm 40 YO.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dima Gur wrote:
Interesting, you've got me there going for a loop, refreshing my memory on distributions.

Or directions, as they have been called in the west for the past millennium or so. Wink

Quote:
It would be hard for me to adjust as I'm quite used to promissors being directed to significators. Also on Solar Fire, when you animate a chart, it seems that the promissors actually move in direct diurnal motion until they reach significators.
Although, I do get your point, as the '4-minutes / 1-degree equals a year movement' is actually of the significator, till it reaches a promissor.

The real point is that the terms 'significator' and 'promissor' have nothing to do with which is moving and which is not. A significator signifies; a promissor promises. It's as simple as that.

If the promissor is located ahead of the significator in the zodiac, so that the significator is symbolically imagined to move forward through the zodiac, the direction is called direct; if the opposite, it is called converse. In terms of real motion, of course, nothing is moving through the zodiac (or rather, what little motion is accomplished in a few hours is disregarded, and natal positions are used).

If this is confusing, don't worry: you're in good company. About a thousand years ago, al-Bīrūnī wrote (transl. Hogendijk, slightly modified):

It can be imagined from their terminology and their work that the direction is directed from the preceding [body] and ends at the following [body], but this is not the case. Its [real] meaning is contradictory to that idea: it is the arrival of the following [body] by the primary motion [of the universe] to the place of the preceding [body].

Quote:
[1.] You probably don't use converse directions (the modern kind where you move the chart counter clockwise as if time went backwards), right?

No, I only use converse directions in the traditional sense (and sparingly).

Quote:
[2.] When I use PDs I usually look for conjunctions between promissors to {a.} angles {b.} luminaries and {c.} planets, in that order, but you seem to be using all of the Ptolemaic aspects. Do you think they are all equal and produce comparable and observable effects in the native's life?

With the reservation that sextiles tend to be a little weaker than the rest, my overall answer would be Yes. A number of factors go into deciding whether a direction will have a major effect, but a trine or a square can be as effective as a conjunction.

And thanks for the compliment about academic rigour. Very Happy
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