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Help with wedding election, please
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Help with wedding election, please Reply with quote

Being a novice in electional, I was wondering if some of you may want to check what I've come up with for friends of mine who asked me to find them a date for their civil ceremony next year.
With the limitations given (such as wanting a waxing moon, spring to early summer, business hours, weekdays etc) and after hours of trying around, I have come up with the following data:

19 May 2007 at 14:00 hrs in Lyon, France.

Mercury as AC ruler is heading towards an opposition with Jupiter, 7th H ruler and both are in domicile strongly placed. I believe Jupiter is in Mercury's term, which I suppose could be read as reinforcing? I was wondering about the retrogradation of Jupiter... are there any rules about retrograde planets? ( suppose it could be read as a coming together from both sides..?)

I remember hearing that it was quite nice when the 7th and the 4th are co-ruled as it brings the home into the equation. While Mercury rules the 1st and the 10th, which could indicate that they will also be working together (they want to build an osteopathy practice together).

Venus as the general significator of marriage is not as strong as I hoped, but the Moon may help?
And should we worry about Uranus in the 7th???
(I know some of you may scream now, but I am of the view that even if we don't officially work with the three outers, it feels wrong to totally ignore them, especially in an angular house..., no?)

As far as synastry is concerned with the individual partners: His Sun is at 9°21' Cancer, his Venus at 16°44'R Gemini, his AC at 26°20' Taurus. Her Sun-Mercury at 3°16' and 3°10' Virgo, her Venus at 17°29' Cancer.

I am really grateful for any constructive comments on this. Thanks to you all and especially to Deb, for providing such a great space for learning!
Rachel
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rachel

I would advise you get Joann Hampar's book, "Electional Astrology, the art of timing." The book was shown on this website a while back. It gives information on electing for various things and, especially, for electing a marriage chart.

A quote from the book, "try to place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in either a cadent or succedent house." I certainly wouldn't have any of those planets in the 7th house even if they were in good aspect to the main planets for a marriage election.

You can also do a web search for marriage election astrology, there are sites online that give information and samples.

Hope this is helpful Thumbs up
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SusieN



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rachel

See if you can find a decent time on 21 March 2007.

Best,
Susie
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies so far. Actually, I've just ordered the book... So the chart I came up with is no good then, is it?
R.
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Venus as the general significator of marriage is not as strong as I hoped, but the Moon may help?


The tight Moon square Mars translating to Venus is not promising – it threatens to make the marriage an emotional battlefield, or worse, especially in a day chart. As you suggested, the Moon, in any election, can overwhelm the entire chart.

The Sun is conjunct the Pleiades, which is often delineated as ‘something to cry about’ and deserves consideration all the more because of the stressed Moon-Venus-Mars. In a marriage election, I would not want to see the 7th house ruler opposition anything, especially not opposition the chart ruler/LoAsc (Mercury opposes Jupiter, angular). Regards Uranus, I have seen many a happy, long-term marriage with Uranus in the 7th. There is usually something Uranian about the couple and their life together, such as a high tech field or aviation, etc. – and at least one harmonious aspect. But in the case of this chart, both Mercury and Jupiter apply to square Uranus. However, based on the preponderance of evidence against Moon, Venus and L7 (primary marriage significators along with 7th) I would have set this election aside to look elsewhere long before I got to Uranus. It is possible you have already done so and found this date and time the best of the lot. Smile

Any benefic in good condition conjunct an angle is excellent. If that is not possible, then try for a close trine to an angle. In this chart you have chosen Moon-Venus in Cancer trine the descendant within a 4 degree orb. It is a very good placement, more so it encompasses the NN - but because of the Mars square to the all important Venus and Moon I'd suggest back to the drawing board...

If the couple’s natal charts (taken individually, before synastry analysis) show difficulties with marriage it is usually difficult to find a good election – maddening for the astrologer! The reverse is also true – if the natal charts show marital bliss it proves all the easier to find a harmonious date and time. I always look there first to get an idea of how much time I will need to carve out of my schedule for the election project. Laughing

Hope this helps for electing wedding bells.

Alex
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again to all, particularly to Alex. It really seems to be a matter of avoiding the worst. Confused
Have had alook at the 21. March again, but there (because we are restricted to notary opening hours) it is difficult to get away from involving a Mars-Saturn opposition before perfection, despite the lovely Moon-Venus conjuction that day..
On the other hand, what about 30 April at 11:30, again in Lyon?
The Moon as significator of one partner links up beautifully to Saturn (other partner) by sextile, then to Jupiter by sextile, then to Venus by trine, and finally to Neptune. The worrying thing there is that sun-mercury are not in aspect(and mercury is cumbust) , but as they are not involved as significators, I thought that might not matter that much. (?) Again, the individual birth charts link up quite nicely with it.
Any thoughts on that?
Cheers,
Rachel
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rachel

I took a look at the April 30, 2007, 11:30am chart Leery

Here are some excerpts from Hampar's book as a guide for marriage election.

"The Ascendant rules the groom, the 7th the marriage and the bride.

Natural rulers of marriage are Venus and Mars, always co-significators; good agreement to each other and to the Moon, and direct in motion.

1st and 7th rulers should be in good aspect to each other and the Moon.

A positive aspect between Venus and Jupiter is very helpful in marriage election. (This promotes happiness).

Strong Moon is important, never VOC, in good aspect to rulers of 1st and 7th houses and/or to Venus and Mars, free from difficult aspects. Her final aspect must be a positive one and a waxing Moon is desirable.

Moon is co-ruler of the person initiating action and should always apply to a favorabel aspect with the ruler of the house in question, the 7th house cusp or a planet in the 7th, or ruler of the 7th.

Sun and Moon are the natural rulers of men and women so a positive aspect between them is very beneficial, if possible place Sun and Moon above the horizon. This also applies to the benefics Venus and Jupiter.

Try to avoid difficult aspects between the marriage rulers and Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. In particular the Sun, Moon and Venus should not "apply" to a difficult aspect with a malefic.

Try and place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto in cadent or succedent house.

It is beneficial to place ruler of 1st in the 7th and, if possible, with the ruler of the 7th and/or Venus, the Sun or Jupiter.

Concentrate primarily on a strong Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars.

Select fixed angles for stability and long-term commitment. Cardinal next best.

Moon should be strong by sign and unafflicted, making only positive "applying" aspects. No difficult aspects to Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune or Pluto.

Select the time for the "pronouncement" of man and wife."

It is difficult to meet all of the above guidelines when you have a limited time frame, but a strong Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars and Jupiter is very desirable.

Good luck Smile
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rachel

A P.S. to my previous post. Please note in the Arpil chart the Sun (man) is applying to a square of Saturn (7th H. ruler=the bride and the marriage). Also, the Moon is in the via combusta (between 15 deg. Libra and 15 deg. Scorpio). In my opinion, neither bodes well for a marriage election crying
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

MarG – I appreciate how you itemized and spaced the Hampar book info. It makes for easier reading and comprehension – and lots of it.

Rachel - Great, you are working the Moon and it is unafflicted by malefics. Not great that the Moon’s next aspect is to Saturn (malefic in detriment). Usually, I would stop there. However, there are the tight trines and sextiles between Moon, Venus, Saturn and Jupiter, plus Jupiter has dignity. I have seen this work successfully in happy long-term marriages BUT only if Moon or Venus have essential dignity AND Moon applies to Venus almost immediately after the application to Saturn AND a good aspect from Jupiter to Venus or Moon no matter how wide (within orb). Moon applies so here with help from Jupiter's very close sextile, however both Moon and Venus are peregrine. At least one needs dignity, either by domicile, exaltation or two minor dignities (triplicity and term).

I’d stop there. Yes, I think it is that important, even though the chart has so many other fortunate aspects (good find for a novice, as you call yourself). I have seen superbly happy life-long marriages where the wedding charts broke all the rules, and broke all the rules many times over in one chart, such as: Moon in 12th, Moon in detriment, Saturn conjunct descendant, Mars conj Saturn conj descendant or ascendant, Venus combust, Venus rx, Venus combust and rx (but separating), Moon less than waxing sextile (but not dark), Venus afflicted by Saturn (separating), Sun in detriment, no contact between Asc/Des Lords, etc…

All these wedding charts would be judged as dreadful if we abided by the rule books. What they have in common, which I believe makes the difference in the marriage election chart, and is not in the guide books or any on-line articles, are three things: certain Moon-Venus specifics, Sun, Mercury/L7 (vows, contracts). In contrast, every unhappy marriage and divorce chart which I have seen lacks these three conditions. I will post the ‘short list’ details later this week when I have more time. Smile

One other thought about the April 30 chart. Venus is square Mars. In addition, some people would count the inconjunct from Moon to Mars (mitigation). This is the second time a hard Mars aspect surfaced to the two marriage planets - Moon and Venus, remember? I’m curious if there is something in the natal charts of the couple, individually or aspects between them, that shows a dominant or hard Moon-Mars or Venus-Mars aspect? It could explain why it keeps coming up.

Alex
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks both of you for your comments and contributions

Quote:
Not great that the Moon’s next aspect is to Saturn


Well, as I understand it, the most important thing in a wedding election is that the ruler of the 1st comes together with the ruler of the 7th... so I thought that was good, and with a nice sextile too..! Agreed, the partner (Saturn) isn't in the greatest shape, and agreed the fact that neither Moon nor Venus are particularly dignified either isn't great (although Venus in Saturn's term links her to one of the partners, no?), I thought that the set of lovely applications from the Moon (as significator for one partner and co-ruler of the whole thing) was kind of positive...

I suppose the most difficult thing with electional is to evaluate and prioritise. And the "rules" seem a bit confliciting - to say the least.
Is it the planetary dynamic (aspects) that is more important or their condition? sure, ideally you want both, but if you really really have to chose...?

Quote:
What they have in common, which I believe makes the difference in the marriage election chart, and is not in the guide books or any on-line articles, are three things: certain Moon-Venus specifics, Sun, Mercury/L7 (vows, contracts)


So I guess an unaspected combust Sun-Mercury is no good either? Mind you Mercury will apply to Saturn (L7) But - re. Venus Mars square I heard that no aspect is worse than a hard one and yes, they both have Venus-Mars square by sign.. Wink !

And thanks very much MarG for taking the time to write out all those rules from the book!
It is obvious that one can never fulfill all those conditions, I suppose I'll just have to settle for the least disturbing...

They have booked for the church wedding, so they are definitively all set for it, that's not it. I believe that the actual signing (contract) is more important than the church & party (as it is usually on two different days) that's why I am stressing over a date..

I'll give it one more shots, but I feel I am seriously running out of options...
Cheers,
Rachel
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rachel

In all the marriage election articles and from the book it is the "I do," that sets the marriage time. I think the signing of the marriage certificate usually is after the fact which is the legal formality.

I'm not sure about the "hard aspect is better than no aspect." Do you mean they each have a hard aspect of Venus-Mars in their natal charts or in the synastry between them?

Without having free range to select a month, date and time, you can only do with the planetary placements that are happening within whatever date and time is available. If they want a specific date, and are set on that date, and no planetary time is accommodating then you just have to leave in the hands of the couple.

Too bad we can't shuffle the planets around like a deck of cards Laughing


Alex

My pleasure on posting the information from the book. It defintely helps when one has guidelines even if they can't all be fulfilled.

I would love to hear any input you have had regarding a marriage election charts Very Happy
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, as I understand it, the most important thing in a wedding election is that the ruler of the 1st comes together with the ruler of the 7th...

Oops, I meant to say in my post that I do not follow that system although I have studied it along with Robson and Ramesey – a bit of an ‘upset the apple cart’ thing for me to forget to say it. Originally, I had it in there but ran out of time and cut the post short with the intention to continue later on.

Yes, you are correct according to Hampar's references. With all the complexities of that system, your April 30 selection is a good find (I think I said that). I also meant to say that Moon applying trine to its dispositor (Venus) in the April 30 chart is excellent. Overall, there are astrologers who might tell you to go with it. We have to select the best option available within the limitations imposed by the bride and groom to be.

Quote:
So I guess an unaspected combust Sun-Mercury is no good either? Mind you Mercury will apply to Saturn (L7)

All I can say is I have never seen Mercury combust in a long-term happy marriage, but I’ve seen it in divorced and unhappy marriages – one lasted 15 yrs and broke up over infidelities (broken vows). There are other systems that say Mercury is the children. I prefer the Sun aspected, especially to Jupiter even if it’s a wide orb, out of sign or by translation and it can be any type of aspect. Here, the Sun does have an aspect, within orb square Saturn. I use Lilly’s orbs (moieties). Deb has a good quick reference table on this site http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html
I can switch hats and take another look at your original May 19 chart selection using your approach.

Years ago, I began to collect charts of happy and unhappy marriages from friends, family, acquaintances, celebrities – anywhere I could find valid “I do” times. None of these charts were elected by astrologers. I was shocked to find how much the happy 30, 40 and 50 year marriages deviated from the rules that were (and are) currently in circulation on marriage elections. I seriously doubt any astrologer would ever have elected these times. I continued to collect charts in order to find out what worked and what did not (within traditional framework). I am more traditionalist than anything else, I hate revising or re-inventing astrology – but I had to do something, how could I argue against the real life success of these couples, all of them wonderfully happy and devoted to each other.

Try a look at this 48-year marriage chart, you’ll see what I mean. I picked this one because L1 and L7 have no aspect yet the couple are very connected, happy and involved with each other, with their great kids, community and charity work, began fairly broke with ify career prospects, grew huge wealth, true to their beliefs even when sometimes controversial, yet thought of very highly by people.

I’d be interested to hear what others think, too. Would anyone here have elected it for a client or friend? Would you have fired your astrologer had they elected it for you?

January 29, 1958
1 pm
Las Vegas, Nevada
Ascendant 17Gemini

I look forward to hearing what people think about this marriage.

Best
Alex
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SusieN



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there Alex

I must say: this election chart is an "Ouch" chart to be avoided at all costs Tongue Out

Just remind me again: what exactly are the redeeming features about his chart?? Very Happy
Curiouser and Curiouser...


Best,
Susie
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarG – re, your question on Mars- Venus. Rachel is referring to the guideline that states Venus-Mars are natural sig’s for man and woman and should be joined either bodily or by aspect (any aspect). IMO, it is a good guideline. As Rachel said, it is a matter of priorities. Personally, I do not give this one a top priority because I have seen so many happy charts where it is not there (example chart of happy marriage in my last post has no Venus-Mars contact) – but I do look to see if they are key planets for marriage in the natal and then weigh accordingly. Also, I do not like to see Moon-Mars afflictions.

Susie writes
Quote:
…this election chart is an "Ouch" chart to be avoided at all costs ….what exactly are the redeeming features about his chart??

Lala Happy Is it ever an Ouch! It was the first chart in my collection and it made want to quit the whole tradition. But I didn’t.

I’d say start with the Moon to find most of the chart’s redeeming value. Anyone care to give it a try? You really can't go wrong...

Alex
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are these marrages elections always done for the time the wedding is supposed to start at? Aren't you considered married after the ceremony? And what if the time is delayed (as so often happens) With birth charts we use the time of first breath-not the first contraction that the mother experiences-correct? Maybe that adds a slight shift to the chart?
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