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Help with wedding election, please
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to add that boy is my wedding chart bad! But I've only been married two years so trouble must be waiting to rear its ugly head. So far, we talk everything out and move on, but we never yell and scream despite the moon being beseiged by saturn and mars. If you care to look it is June 19 2004 1:30 pm Sebastopol CA. But the ceremony didn't start until 1:45 or so, thus my previous post.
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,

Here is a link to the wedding chart for the enormously happy couple married 48 years (mentioned upthread)

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;btyp=2;mth=gw;hsy=5;zod=;add=18;add=22;add=12;add=13;add=14;add=15;sday=10;smon=10;syr=2006;rs=;orbp=;cid=jewfilemhq3zF-u1152052642;lang=e;gm=a1;ast=&nhor=4&nho2=1

It is my first time posting a chart link - let me know if there is any problem

Labalance - I do not think your wedding chart is "bad!" Smile as you say. Check out this chart link, you may change your mind...or at least suspend judgement. I'll give more detail tomorrow when I have more time

Alex
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whew! Thank to all for valued input.

Yes, this seems to be a tricky business with determining the time, I actually have another question about this issue, but in a separate post.

Quote:
In all the marriage election articles and from the book it is the "I do," that sets the marriage time. I think the signing of the marriage certificate usually is after the fact which is the legal formality.
Assuming that you refer to church weddings, one could argue that in today's society the notarial binding may be considered more important.. In the past, people went to church and then popped by the town hall to sign all in one day I believe. This is not the case any more, in fact a lot of people do not go to church at all to say 'I do'. Confused So wouldn't that make the 'legal formality' more important? This particular couple (although very spiritual but not necessarily religious) just do the church business for the familiy. Nobless oblige...
So I am really not sure about the validity for us today... That is the touble isn't it, with certain traditions. Those rules have been based on social etiquette relating to the time, but customs and etiquette change...
What do you think? (no, I am not a libra.. :-) )


Quote:
I'm not sure about the "hard aspect is better than no aspect." Do you mean they each have a hard aspect of Venus-Mars in their natal charts or in the synastry between them?

Yes they both have a (wide) square Ve-Ma in their natal chart, but what I meant - and I quote from Rob Hand who - in his talk outlined the priciples according to Ramesey and Bonatti - that it is preferable (in an election) to have a hard aspect betweeen the rulers of the matter, than no aspect at all. Well, he said the worst aspect two rules can have is no aspect. To me that just makes a lot of sense, beause the main thing is to have a communication going symbolically.



Quote:
All I can say is I have never seen Mercury combust in a long-term happy marriage, but I’ve seen it in divorced and unhappy marriages – one lasted 15 yrs and broke up over infidelities (broken vows).

That is a really good point, as the main object on that day will be the Merury ruled signatures and contract, thanks for that.

Quote:
I was shocked to find how much the happy 30, 40 and 50 year marriages deviated from the rules that were (and are) currently in circulation on marriage elections.


That is really interesting and brings up a lot of questions, doesn't it... see below...

Quote:
I am more traditionalist than anything else, I hate revising or re-inventing astrology – but I had to do something, how could I argue against the real life success of these couples, all of them wonderfully happy and devoted to each other.

Exactly! I believe it is important to keep an open mind. Perhaps we don't need to re-invent, but I daresay there may be use over the centuries to update and revise certain things... Smile Times do change
Which brings us round to the question what a happy marriage really depends on. I think we can positively say that a it does not depend on a good election. That's more like giving it a push, or trying to make the actual event a happy one. Whether two people stay together depends imho entirely on other factors. More to do with the realm of soul and spirit I think. but we are digressing...

Alex, I had a quick look at the chart for your happily married long-standing couple. Blimey! This looks scary... Do any of the partners have Venus retro? ... hmm, yes one would never think that a chart like this bodes well for a lasting marriage. But it certainly is a good point in case of all we mentioned above. Perhaps comparing it to their natal charts could make for an interesting study. I am thinking of things I heard about Saturn being kind to his own children, so if one is Capricorn or Aquarius and the other one Aries or Scorpio, a Saturn-Mars in the 7th isn't all that deadly? I don't know if that kind of reasoning works for this.. but it could be interesting to approach the question in reverse, if you see what I mean.

So, here is my latest find - How about the 28 March 07, at 13:30 Lyon???? The L1 (moon) comes from a trine to Sun, applying first to Venus (strong in dignity) and then to Saturn L7 and finally to Jupiter. Moreover, Mercury (contract) in Venus's term and applying to Venus, that's nice no? I mean if you have Cancer or Leo risîng (which makes for a reasonable time) there is just no getting away from Saturn's debility! I think Venus in the 11th is good too, indicator of friendship. Also Mercury in 9th seems very appropriate, as does Moon in 1st. Is there anything massive I am overlooking?

Rachel
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS Sorry La Balance I did not have time to go into your contribution.. but thanks anyway. About horrible charts, it is apparently the same in synastry, the worst combination may work best..! So I suppose we just have to trust our feelings? Smile After all, the harmony between a couple in real life speaks for itself..
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what you are saying Rachel and also that what people want and expect from marriage has changed so much since early astrology. It would be interesting to compare our different views and see if we came up with something that made sense. I do know that Stepen Arroyo's book on chart comparison has always worked for me, and he definately has a modern view of things.


Alex, the most interesting thing in that chart is that both significators are unaspected. I can see that if they were very independent that might work? The moon is obviously very strong by sign, but the square to pluto?
On the other hand, moon near Juno! That looks good.

One thing about my marriage chart is that we both have a lot of links to the event chart.
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachel

From all I have read it is when the "I do's," have been said and the "now I pronounce you man and wife," is what sets the election timing. It doesn't matter where the ceremony is taking place, or if religious or civil. As I mentioned before, the signing of the wedding certificate is a legal formality after the fact, they are already married.

Hope you find the best possible date and time.

Alex

I looked at the chart you mentioned....Ouch!

But, people get married for many different reasons and their individual charts will show their potential. If a couple has a lot of harmony in the areas that are important to them both, and agree between themselves what they want in marriage, then it doesn't really matter if the marriage chart, harmonious or not, elected or not, will make any difference whether they stay together or not Smile

IMHO an astrologer asked to set a marriage election within a given set of dates and times can only come up with the best there is, if possible, and if not, then politely bow out and let the couple go forth on their own Wink
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we were limited as to what weekend we could use, I had wanted May 26th. But the funny thing is the links between our two charts. I'm a double Libra with ASC at 29:45 Virgo with Mars in Cancer. He's a Double Gemini with ASC at 20 Aries and Mercury in Cancer. So, there is a lot of overlapping. Plus we both have a square from Mars to Mercury (both Libra to Cancer (although the opposite planet). Anyway, it is all very interesting.
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all

In case no one has noticed, on the main page of this website, where different articles are listed, there is an article entitled, "Marriage Elections, comparing different rules," by Ken Gilman. It is very informative.
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

This thread is rich in thoughts and contributions - wish I could address them all, too.

Back to astrologically scary yet super happy wedding chart (link is upthread, near top of p.2) – Yes Labalance, Moon's exaltation is the first clue! Very Happy - next clue: Moon’s is making a traditional aspect (out-of-sign). The aspect, as we say in non-archaic jargon, is “choice”. What makes it choice? I will post those details shortly, including birth data.

Rachel, yes strong Saturn in natals and yes couple is terrifically kind to their children, but no to any natal Venus RX, not even near a station – good thought, definitely needs to be weighed into the yea or nay scheme of unraveling wedding election knots.

Labalance – Yes, Moon’s exalt in Taurus is key and I agree Moon’s next aspect square Pluto near IC is something to think about. It tells me the traditional planets trump outers (outers may color, they will not out-do). Yes, they are very independent individuals but in their own words are in close contact “every day”.

Switching to Labalance’s wedding chart - On the really up side the Moon in Cancer is much stronger than either Mars or Saturn in Cancer. In addition, the Moon is all about the marriage sig’s, which are Moon and Venus. More than just dignity by domicile Moon has dignity by face; its also in Venus’ triplicity and terms. Its final dignity ruler is Jupiter which is in sextile - excellent. Moon is high in chart and so is Venus. Jupiter in partile aspect to Venus and Sun-Mercury sextile Jupiter, which is Mercury’s exalt ruler. That’s alot of happiness. Laughter counts.

Regards Mercury combust, it is worth further investigation. Even though I have a large sampling of wedding charts, they would not be considered valid statistically because it is not a random sample. My charts were obtained primarily through relatives, friends, and friends of friends, which links them to the 11th and 3rd houses in my natal chart, therefore considered anecdotal. Oh well… Random sampling is a typical problem for astrologers. Research grants would be a big help. Could happen Lala Happy

Rachel – I’m still going through the April 30 chart, rock by rock. You’re the one doing all the work searching the ephemeris and natals, so weigh all my previous comments in the ‘compared to’ what else may or may not be there on other days. I forgot to mention the Apr 30 Moon’s aspect to its exaltation ruler is also very good - together with (previously mentioned) Moon trine its domicile ruler, Venus, and sextile its exalt ruler, Saturn, which is also L7, and the aspects from Jupiter to Moon, Saturn and Venus – it’s strengths continue to grow. Plus, I strongly favor the rule of having L7 disposed of by either Moon, Venus or L1 by any of the major or minor dignities. Here, Saturn’s is disposed by Venus through term.

I have not looked at the March 28 chart yet because I have a question. Are you including triplicity, term and face when you look for essential dignity? Even the opposite sect triplicity lord, night trip lords for day chart? I have seen both Moon and Venus in detriment (in the same happy wedding chart!) but in dignity by triplicity and term (and sextile) which IMO makes a difference. I use the Dorothean essential dignities, some people use Ptolemy.

When I mention “I do’s” it is figurative, not literal - just my cultural idiom. Marriage is a contract affair, sometimes there are vows. If there are vows, I use that time. It is up to the astrologer and couple to determine which has more relevance to the union. Does anyone know of a traditional reference to the legal contract aspect of marriage in an election chart? I have never been able to find one. For hundreds of years (more?) the bride had no “I do or don’t” option, because she was never asked to agree to a vow or sign anything (so I was told by an anthropology professor). Sometimes women had a say in the engagement, but were often silent in the actual ceremony; men were in charge and women were subjugated. Indeed, times have a-changed... Thumbs up

MarG – thanks for the heads up on the article – I will check it out.

Best,
Alex
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex, not sure if this is relevant, but perhaps the combust Mercury means that that is where the issues will be? Since my husband has Mercury in Cancer and mine is in Libra I would say that is our biggest issue, trying to understand one another. The helpful factors in our particular instance are my Mars and Venus in water signs and his in fire and air. So far, we have been able to work through it, in fact working on it is how we fell in love. He's the only man I've ever met who listened to what I was saying processed it and said he was sorry for misunderstanding.
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I would say the moon trining venus is the great aspect that you are talking about?
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Labalance

Quote:
….perhaps the combust Mercury means that that is where the issues will be? Since my husband has Mercury in Cancer and mine is in Libra I would say that is our biggest issue, trying to understand one another.

Sounds like a good interpretaion – wedding mercury and sun are in different signs (water and air) just like the elements in your natal merc's)…......

Quote:
He's the only man I've ever met who listened to what I was saying processed it and said he was sorry for misunderstanding.

...….and mercury-sun’s applying sextile to Jupiter (mercury’s exalt ruler in mercury’s sign, virgo) leads to peaceful and kind understanding. The minor dignities for sun-merc are also helpful. Also sounds like the wedding electional Moon's strength in Cancer sets a fertile receptive ground for calm listening and nurturing.

Quote:
…I would say the moon trining venus is the great aspect that you are talking about?

Yes Thumbs up ! But that alone does not make the aspect “choice”…there is more

I shall return soon with the details

Alex
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Rachel



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again and thanks again to all

MarG

Quote:
It doesn't matter where the ceremony is taking place, or if religious or civil. As I mentioned before, the signing of the wedding certificate is a legal formality after the fact, they are already married.

Sorry if I made a long dicourse for something we are all clear about... I guess (not being a native anglo-phone) I didn't really understand the word 'fact' in this context.. it's a bit confusing.


Thanks very much for the hint to the article - that is very very useful!


Alex

Quote:
Are you including triplicity, term and face when you look for essential dignity? Even the opposite sect triplicity lord, night trip lords for day chart?


Erm... opposite sect triplicity lords..? ..reversed day/night lords...? Never heard of them I'm afraid.. Gobsmacked Clearly there is so much more to learn first...

Quote:
I have seen both Moon and Venus in detriment (in the same happy wedding chart!) but in dignity by triplicity and term (and sextile) which IMO makes a difference.

Hmm yes, that makes sense. I suppose every little helps...
Thanks so much for all your input. As the matter stands and develops, I have just been informed that the civil ceremony has to be on a weekend, (Saturday probably) in Spring. If it's to be in a waxing Moon, this will narrow things considerably, which, will make my job a lot easier and quicker! In these cases one just looks for the least disturbed, I suppose..

Rachel
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For hundreds of years (more?) the bride had no “I do or don’t” option, because she was never asked to agree to a vow or sign anything (so I was told by an anthropology professor). Sometimes women had a say in the engagement, but were often silent in the actual ceremony;

In a Muslim ceremony, an official from a mosque first asks consent from the groom, who is most likely in a different room, and then comes to the bride and asks consent from her. Consent has to be provided 3 times by each party, and the two are not in the same room. This kind of ceremony usually takes place at the bride's home and can span 15 minutes or more, with the groom consenting in the first 5 minutes, and the bride consenting in the latter 5. A "Muslim" marriage certificate is also signed by both parties the same day, but that is done at the same time as consent is provided, hence at "different" times by the bride and groom.

However, this ceremony does not create a "legal" marriage in the United States. The couple still have to sign the legal marriage certificate in the presence of two witnesses in some government office, or in the presence of whatever civil employee is marrying them off. This signing can take place before or after the Muslim ceremony. This "legal" certificate is signed at the same time by both parties.

It would be impossible to do electionals for Muslims if it is to be judged at the time that "vows" are taken, because no vows are taken, to the best of my recollection. It's only a matter of consent.

So what time would the electional be set for in these cases?

Thank you.
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus7

I looked up the word "vow" in the dictionary to see what the definition is: "Vow: a solemn promise or statement: one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition <marriage>"

There are many marriage customs but at some point the couple are joined together by whoever is performing the ceremony which binds the couple in wedlock. The saying of "I now pronounce you man and wife or bride and groom" or however the pronouncement is made is the timing of the election.

From what I've read the most important thing in timing is to keep the Moon within the harmonious applying aspects to the significators of the marriage Smile
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