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When will I meet a new man?
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1237
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest question is- What does John Frawley teach about frustration !! and why does that not apply here?

Pankaj
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He does teach it - recognising it is another question! Very Happy Frustration is much the same as prohibition as its another planet coming into play before the question significators make their aspect and that's what I was asking about but no one addressed that. Both of their planets are meeting with Jupiter before the Venus trine Saturn aspect, but as Jupiter rules the 5th (and 9th he lives far away from her) house(s) it does have something to do with the question I'm just not sure how to apply it.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a benefic planet and favourable aspect may be a helper rather than hinderer.

This thread may help:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2259

PD
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for that - I've been going over translation of light, collection, frustration and prohibition for a week!
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loara29



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: When will I meet new man? Reply with quote

Hello to all,

I think, it was my question months ago.

Or there is somebody with the same question?

I am trying to post new horary chart, but is not going.

How, should I do that?

loara29
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"If you LOVE someone tell him or her, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store"
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loara29



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Will I meet new man? Reply with quote

Hello to all,

Very interesting. That is my question. A bit old. But thank you anyway.

Something here is very true: Many people say, somebody is coming back to me, but it is also true, this man. I had split 2004, is no question, I want him to come back.
It is also true, that I hate him.

I want somebody new, who understands my chronic pains, and who is going to help me.

Kind regards,
loara29
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a new question posed by a client of mine last week.
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loara29



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: When will I meet new man? Reply with quote

Dear Scorpio,

Why is there my name by question?

It is the same question I have posted in October!

Very strange!

Where is my question? There on the right is me: loara29!
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a horary question that millions of people have asked over time! Very Happy

If you read the first post in this thread, the details of the questions are
4 March 2007 at 2.17pm GMT - LONDON
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the issue of whether the ascendant-ruler should be descriptive of the querent:

Quote:
Its not my question but even if it was I don't see that it is relevant. Lilly found this useful when the Ascendant was in an early or late degree of its sign or when he needed to convince the client of his abilities. In this day of computers its not necessary and its not something I tend to look at. John Frawley says there's no need to describe the querent, although sometimes people might ask for a description of the quesited.


It’s your own decision which techniques you choose to follow but I would like to comment upon what I see as misinformation in that remark. As a general principle Lilly put a lot of effort into showing how the significator of the querent was an appropriate and descriptive significator in most of his charts. It was a very prevalent feature of his style of interpretation and had nothing to do with concerns about the calculation being accurate. For an example see his judgement on the gentlewoman and the aged man, where he includes information on what the querent and quesited looked like even after his judgment was concluded. The ascendant is in the middle of the sign; there was no concern about early or late degrees.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aged.html

He did this because it was his way of ensuring that the chart as a whole was descriptive of the people involved and the situation asked about. And more than ‘testing’ the chart, it was about settling into the symbolism. How can you expect to see the answer in the chart if you cannot even recognise the querent and the question in it?

I have noticed that John Frawley seems to feel that the assignation of planets to significators is purely random and needn’t concern us. I feel just as strongly that this is never the case, and having checked and double checked this principle against numerous charts it is one of the points that I stress to my own students – that the planet acting as the significator does so for good reason. It is never meaningless. That is not to say that, for example, a woman is inappropriately signified by Mars, but there will be something essentially Martial in her character and the physiognomy that extends from it. Often a deeper scrutiny of the signification being offered takes us a long way towards finding the answer in the chart – sometimes it is ‘the’ answer. (For example, if you are trying to identify a ‘who did it ?’)

In this question you are trying to identify a potential ‘new man’. Will you not take the fact that the quesited is signified by Saturn into the equation? That would be the first point I would consider in trying to build up a profile of the quesited. If you assume that planetary significations are just random and needn’t concern us, then why stop there? Why not assume that it’s all just random and devoid of meaning? As you say “As above, so below, not every now and then”. (Though I agree with that comment, I also accept that sometimes things are loaded with problems both above and below. We have the free will and the capacity to evaluate what we are getting into.)

Hence though I agree that every chart *can* be read - I still believe that the considerations are important and in many ways part of the judgement, or can give reason to be cautious. And why assume that if we gave the considerations before judgement the same attention that Lilly did we would never find time to judge a chart? Although I find the figure highly unlikely myself, Lilly was reputed to judge up to 2000 charts a year, though as Sue Ward discovered by researching through his private chart notes, he routinely broke from judging charts whenever the Moon went truly void.

But I don’t think that is the issue here. By ignoring the meaning of the planetary signification my argument is that the chart is only being half-read. This isn’t any kind of consideration before judgement, it is just ignoring a potentially important part of the judgement.


With regards to this chart, I think there is more to discuss than a PS that the ex may want to return. Why is the chart so heavily afflicted? Why is Mars sitting on the 7th house cusp? Why is the Moon conjunct the South Node and VOC except for a square to Pluto? Why is the querent signified by a peregrine Sun, afflicted by its placement in the 8th house and conjunction with Uranus? (The Sun has a lot to do with themes of pride or arrogance when afflicted – is that an issue here?) Why is the quesited signified by Saturn in detriment and retrograde in the first house and placed in opposition to Neptune in the 7th? Does he have a drink problem or a problem with reality? Saturn often points to some inhibition of our sense of freedom or fear, especially when it appears in the first house. Is the ex, and maybe his continued dependence upon her, the factor that stops her getting into a new relationship? The theme of this chart is quite destructive, so whilst you have the difficulty of not having the pleasant news she wants to hear, there seems to be something important for her to think about, possibly with regards to this ex, even though she has said that she doesn’t even want to go there.

But like you say, Jupiter is also key, because it is the planet that the Moon has last separated from, and it is the planet to which both of significators apply. Question the symbolism and don’t be afraid to go back and question her. To crack this chart I think you need to keep digging away at who or what Jupiter is, and the biggest clue you have is that whoever or whatever it is, it is signified by Jupiter. Just think about it – you can always ignore it if you decide it really doesn’t mean anything to you.


Sorry for throwing such a lot of issues at you!
Good luck
Deb
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Deb. Whenever you do that, explain things like that, I feel not only a sense of awe at your knowledge, but also a real feeling of 'My gosh, how much more I need to learn!'. Laughing

Best,
Gunhilde
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Deb! I can see both sides to the argument regarding the descriptions and I do appear to have come over somewhat stroppy! Very Happy
I remember that chart in CA – as I had trouble working my way through that when I was doing my course!

This chart has bugged me since the day I ran it and I have been through it quite thoroughly, I think.

I have had a very lengthy conversation with the querent today, thankfully after reading your post - who incidentally does seem to fit the description of Leo on the ascendant having a round face, curly hair (albeit dark) which she described as ‘big hair’, on the tall side for a woman and well built so it does fit the Ascendant. Thumbs up I did take Saturn into consideration as the new man but it doesn’t fit. How can a new person in her life be signified by a planet that is retrograde as this is suggesting a return? Also she told me he is an Aquarian which rules the 7th house cusp so fits.

I did notice Mars on the cusp of the 7th house and other than his father or his home causing him problems, the querent could offer no suggestions. I wasn’t sure what to make of the Moon conjunct the South Node but it is a separating aspect right on the 3rd house cusp so something unpleasant has happened in the past concerning that house although nothing that struck a cord with her. Having said that, the Sun is applying to conjunct the North Node in the 9th house and implies something good as they are always opposite each other. How are these relevant? Other than the 9th house being ruled by Jupiter which has the 'good' node. The Sun is still within 5 degrees of the 9th house cusp so isn't in the 8th house. I didn’t take Sun conjunct Uranus to be anything other than something unexpected or sudden happening and as this is conjunct the North Node also I am thinking it won’t be something bad. Both Sun and Moon are in their houses of joy and have a little more power to act as they like being there. The Sun being peregrine may just show she is feeling somewhat alone and that’s why she wanted to know when she will find a new man for a new relationship.

Saturn, if representing the ex does have a drink problem which he won’t admit to. The querent did refer to him as living in ‘la la land’ most of the time as he doesn’t like accepting responsibility for his life and blames the people that come into his life rather than looking at himself. She doesn’t see him as a reason stopping her having another relationship, he doesn’t live near her.

From speaking to her all she wants is some fun in her life as she has been working on her business and not going out – which means she isn’t meeting anyone. Jupiter rules the 5th house of pleasure so maybe that’s all it is - a last fling with her ex, maybe he is the one to get her out even if its not for a relationship in the true sense of the word but may lead to her meeting someone else whilst out there ‘having fun’. At the end of the day she has free will to decline should he come forward as being Saturn in the chart!
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was also thinking that Saturn was more indicative of the ex myself. I’m pleased you found the physical resemblance to the querent in her significator, but then the next step is to think about what kind of characteristics the planetary signature is offering. This can be very telling in the judgement of the question, and is very useful for the consultation. I realise that this may not matter so much now you have spoken to her, but it is worth thinking about as an academic exercise.

When you read 19th century novels, they often portray characteristics by dwelling on the physiognomy of the characters. Hence you get long descriptions on how tall the brow was, or whether the nose was arched, etc. The characteristics given by literature of that period fit in with astrological symbolism very nicely – so for example, curly hair is a typically Leonine trait because it is symbolic of being ‘untamed’ and can represent a lot of energy or forcefulness of character. The fact that this is a woman, primarily signified by the Sun, is potentially very meaningful. This is a masculine symbol, so it shows that although this woman is asking about a relationship, she is unlikely to be the kind of woman who wants equality in a partnership, she is more likely to want to lead, and whether she realises it or not, she is very much living and thinking like an ‘individual’. The Sun is Latinised as ‘sol’ from ‘solus’ because it represents singularity: ‘the one’. Just as the Sun is a natural significator for only one thief, or only one child, it also suggests an inclination towards independence in relationships, because the Sun wants to be supreme and allows no other light to shine. Hence this is likely to be a very independent-minded woman, who like you say, is looking for some self-indulgence rather than a commitment. (Or if she is looking for commitment, then this tells us about the kind of issues she needs to think about).

The Sun is peregrine but applying to the square of Jupiter who receives it by sign, term and face. This is also, to some extent, descriptive of her character, and suggests she is very open and direct, probably quite jovial in her expression, and possibly quite open sexually since Jupiter ins in the 5th house. But it also adds that ‘exaggeration factor’, so other people can find her approach a little ‘too much’. The recent opposition from the Moon indicates that she isn’t settled emotionally, and the Sun is very close to Uranus, so she is likely to be volatile. There certainly seems to be arguments around her with Mars on the 7th cusp – so is she scaring her partners away? On the other hand, Venus is culminating, showing her urge for a relationship, and the Sun is not well placed in Pisces – underneath the bluff of the outside she is emotionally sensitive and she needs a lot of soothing, so she suffers through not being as truly independent as she perceives herself to be. (This starts to build the profile of quite a needy character Smile )

You are right about the 9th house – I didn’t look close enough at the chart before. I think it is very important to establish why her significator is placed on the 9th house cusp, especially as that is also ruled by Jupiter, which is the promise of a new relationship in this chart, or something very important to her. Is she teaching or studying, planning a journey, etc., etc? That is the sort of point that would make me want to say to the querent “I don’t quite understand something in this chart, can I check if a couple of suggestions I have make sense to you?”. I think it is perfectly fine to do that, because sometimes the last jigsaw pieces only fall into place during the consultation. I would also expect that if I told this querent that there was a lot of stress or conflict in her life right now, she would absolutely agree and fill me in on some details on problems that are going on right now. But I suspect that this is something more connected with her work or lifestyle as a whole, since Mars rules the midheaven.

Personally I think the Sun’s application to Jupiter can be used as a marker for a possible new relationship, but I don’t think it is an especially meaningful one in the long run. And yes, I agree that the ex is likely to continue to be a problem.

Sounds like your meeting went very well, so congratulations!

Deb
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again Deb - I have learnt so much from this one question!

The description you gave of her fits like a glove. She did mention that she was 'fiercely independent' and didn't want anyone telling her what to do which her ex did but at the same time leaned on her heavily which was one of the reasons she wouldn't want to get together with him again. She was open and direct and wasn't afraid to say what she thought but was quite 'jolly' with it. I have found that people who are like this on the outside often are quite sensitive and its just a cover to protect them.

I shall definitely take more time and dig into the chart a bit more from now on. I tend to just look for the answer because that's all most people want and whilst I am usually right its nice to know that so much more can be gleaned from the chart.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thank you to both of you for the in-depth discussion! It has been a good learning curve! Very Happy
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