37
Ben

Thank you so much for publishing this. I?m struggling to recall any other occasion where I?ve seen a modern celebrity analysed in the medieval manner, with notes on technique and summary of judgement. It is very illuminating. I see you refer to the triplicity rulers too. I didn?t realise anyone was still putting that technique into practice. It?s fascinating to see how you?ve combined your techniques to form your judgement.

I notice you didn?t refer to the effects of transits at all. Is that because you don?t consider them as important as profections, firdaria or directions, or you felt it was unnecessary because you were illustrating a traditional method and concentrating mainly on the life ?overview?? (For example Sue and I both felt that the Pluto-Saturn conjunction was significant for his current troubles. Would you consider that relevant or do you tend to dismiss the influence of the outers?)

Thanks again for giving us such an informative and detailed analysis.

Deb

38
Hi Deb,

Thanks, I'm glad to see you found some interesting points in the delineations so far. Later today I'll post my delineation on his marriage, children, and spirituality.

Thanks also for the question about transits, as well as mentioning the modern planets -- I'm glad you asked.

On the outer planets, there are two reasons I don't use them. First, because I wasn't taught how! Zoller used to use them in the 80s' (you can see them used in his books on Arabic Parts and the fifth house), but as far as I know he stopped years ago. But the main issue is one of rulerships: you'd have to totally reconceive rulerships, and since medieval uses 5 levels of rulerships, they would all have to be changed before you could even delineate, much less predict.

Transits. This is largely a matter of the order of topics I was taught to delineate/predict in and how I like to do nativities. After I delineate some area in the natal figure, I use predictive techniques that rely on the natal figure alone to lay out some periods that should manifest the area I've delineated -- like firdaria, triplicity rulers, certain profections, primary directions. You only need the natal figure for those. So I used them in a quick and focused way to narrow down some periods.

Transits, like solar returns, depend on other information besides the natal figure (i.e., the movement of planets after birth). Apparently the medievals did not use them much for that reason, and used them mainly during solar returns and to fine tune the timing of techniques that use the natal figure.

I use transits mainly if I am doing a set of predictions for a given year, which I will do when I'm all done with the delineation. I would normally look at transits to things like the angles and luminaries, and transiting repetitions of configurations already in the natal chart (e.g., Mars transits to the angles, and the transiting Mars aspects to his natal Venus and Mercury interest me). But I wouldn't emphasize them a lot unless some other factor promised something important about those planets, via a solar return, profections, etc.

So I'll turn to MJ transits later when I do predictions for this coming year -- I'll gather up any predictions so far that cover this year and the last couple, I'll profect the ASC for this year, do a solar return, and apply transits. If anyone knows where he was during his solar return, that'd be helpful!

Ben

39
Michael Jackson Marriage Delineation
This is a complex and interesting sort of delineation, having a number of steps. I?ll make comments about technique as I go along to give you the general gist.

The main thing in these considerations is how the marriage functions and contributes to flourishing and objective satisfaction (and by extension, reproduction), rather than finding a soul-mate. As far back as Plato people have talked about romantic partners as soul-mates, but the key functional questions are: will he marry, how many times, is it a good match, are they sexually compatible, will his social status and functioning be more upward and beneficial?

Part of Men?s Marriage is: 12 Aqu 21

1. 7th house/Part/Marriage Almuten/Planets

7th house delineation in marriage context
Planets in 7th: Saturn, angular, triplicity, unafflicted. Square Moon, trine Mercury, trine Venus, oppose Asc, sextile MC.

Rulers:
Domicile/Almuten: Jupiter. Succeedent, unafflicted, in 5th.
Exalted: none.
Triplicity: Jupiter. See above.
Triplicity: Sun. Angular and unafflicted in the 4th, aided by sextile to Jupiter.
Triplicity: Saturn. Angular and unafflicted in the 7th, aided by trine to Venus.
Term: Venus.
Decan: Moon.
(Jupiter has the most testimonies)

Saturn in the 7th and Jupiter the domicile ruler, each unafflicted and strong and each aspecting the Lord of the ASC by benefic aspects, the native does marry. But the native?s relationships will be burdened and hard work, and will be a burden on his personal happiness (Saturn oppose ASC). Look for the native?s finances and reputation to be negatively affected by his relationships (Saturn square Moon, Lord of 2nd and in 10th); there is generally a professional element to his marriages (Saturn sextile MC).

The native?s marriage is related to his Jupiterian entertainments and pursuits: generosity, travel, humanitarianism (in Libra) ? so he will meet at least one wife through these or on account of these; by derived houses, he might meet her through her friends. Saturn as Lord of the 10th in the 7th, the native?s relationships come about through his professional work and through people of authority and high status (strong, moderately dignified Saturn Lord of 10th, in 7th and aspecting Moon in the 7th).

Marriage Significators and Almuten:
7th: Afflicted by conjunction to Saturn; trine Venus.
Jupiter (Lord 7th): Succeedent and unafflicted.
Saturn: Angular and unafflicted.
Moon: Angular and afflicted by square Saturn.
Venus: Angular and afflicted by square Mars.
Part MM: Cadent (afflicted).

Jupiter is the almuten of these (= Marriage Almuten)

The majority are afflicted, and Saturn is malefic (albeit helped by the trine to Venus).
The Lord of the ASC is trined by the Marriage Almuten.

The native?s marital bliss will be middling, with sadness and laboriousness a feature.
But note the marriage almuten?s good condition: this suggests that they will be of benefit to him despite the problems.

7th house on Sagittarius, a fire sign and mutable, the native marries two women.

The Lord of the ASC is lighter than, and joined to, the almuten of the 7th: the native wants to copulate with women.

Part of Marriage:
The Part is cadent, but in the 9th and otherwise unafflicted. Its Lord is Saturn, angular and unafflicted. Venus aspects both, though she is afflicted.
The quality of the wife is middling ? i.e., a somewhat suitable match for the native.

Planet signifying wife (Moon):
Moon afflicted and in triplicity. The wife?s social class is middling. Note that the natal figure shows the native will be wealthy and prominent, so she is probably below him in status.

Extra technique: Lords of the 7th, Part of Marriage, Moon, and Venus not aspecting [i.e., receiving] them ? the native will not marry or won?t like women.

2. Moon: Luminary signifying opposite sex (in male nativities)
This consideration evaluates the appropriateness the wife and the joy of the marriage. What I find interesting about this part is that if more than one wife is indicated, the number of planets aspecting the Moon indicates the number and nature of the wives. Here I exclude the Sun since I want to treat him in terms of his general role in showing the stability of the marriages (see below).

She is angular, but afflicted by Saturn, in her 3rd quarter. Her triplicity rulers are: Mars (very afflicted), Venus (angular, afflicted), and herself (angular, afflicted).

The Moon and Venus are each strong in quantity but all afflicted. So this is more testimony for a middling marriage of average happiness, with affliction.

Moon?s aspects:
Opposing Sun: (this is a sign of divorce and strife)
Sextile Mars: the wife is headstrong; arguing, unstable.
Square Saturn: the wife is baseborn and unwholesome. (Ptolemy: stern and hardworking)

So the native has two wives (excluding the Sun): a Martial wife who argues, and a Saturnian wife who is difficult and inflexible. The opposition to the Sun says he divorces at least one.

[Note: He married Lisa Marie Presley during the profection of his 10th to itself ? and its ruler is Saturn in the 7th, who also is the one afflicting his Moon (the Moon-Sun signifies divorce). His second wife Debbie Rowe used to work for him as a nurse, and is very much out of the public eye ? Mars is the ruler of the 6th ? servants. So I?m going to treat Presley as the Saturnian wife, and Rowe as the Martial wife.]

3. Venus: General Love Significator
Again, whether the marriages bring more harm or good, and how appropriate the wife is.

Venus is angular and afflicted by Mars. Her triplicity rulers are: Jupiter (strong, unafflicted), Sun (strong, unafflicted), Saturn (strong, unafflicted).

Venus rather afflicted but her triplicity rulers strong: the native will marry an inappropriate and disagreeable woman, but he will be fortunate and will find utility from it.

Ptolemy says: Venus with Saturn, the wife will bequeath him enough of the goods of life, and she will love him and the children a lot.

Venus is peregrine. But Jupiter is in one of her signs (Libra): the native?s marriage has more good than bad, and will be praised by others.

Venus is squared by Saturn and Jupiter aspects neither: the native will not delight much with women, and if he marries, he won?t enjoy sex much.

These testimonies say the native?s marriage (or one of them) won?t be a very good match so far as personalities and having sex goes, but it will be praised by others and generally provide more good than bad.


4. Mars: Significator of Male Sexuality
This overlaps with section 6 below. Mars shows how hot to trot the native is for sex ? generally, the more dignified and strong, the more appropriately lusty he is.

Mars in detriment: the native cultivates sex excessively and causes impediments and business problems [because of it].

(Defer everything else to the section on Venus-Mars-Saturn)


5. Lastingness of the Marriage
Here we look at the luminaries: good aspects and no afflictions tends to show the marriage lasts; if the opposite, the opposite.

Luminaries in opposition, Saturn afflicting one (Moon): there will be a legal contest or separation (could be the Saturnian wife) and they are not reunited (no benefics aspecting Moon).

Both malefics aspect the Moon; he will be the dissenter.

[An adaptation of a technique mentioned specifically for women:] Mercury aspecting the malefic that afflicts the Moon, the divorce is much gossiped about; Venus aspecting as well, the divorce happens by suspicion or adultery.

So the divorce probably concerns the Saturnian wife: they are divorced but are not reunited, he initiates the divorce, it concerns suspicions or adultery (or similar things), and it is all much gossiped about.


6. Mars-Venus-Saturn: Misc Sexuality and Emotion Considerations
Here, Mars, Venus and Saturn are treated as general significators. There is a lot of stuff in here about incest and disapproved sex interests. Generally, Mars means lust, Venus means sexuality in general, and Saturn adds conservatism and propriety (but afflicting and in a bad condition, things get sexually dysfunctional and strange).


Mars square Venus, with Mercury also involved. Mars is in detriment, afflicting her from the 12th. So the native?s sex drive is unusual or wild.

Venus trine Saturn, with Mercury involved. The wife is older, and there is a public dimension to the marriage.

All three planets together, the marriage is not durable or useful.

Overall, the sexuality situation is unstable ? propriety mixed with an unusual or wild sex drive. Mars cadent and in detriment, this could be sexual dysfunction or strange sex interests. Note: If Saturn had squared Venus, I would have said the sexuality issued tended toward the really unusual, criminal, disgusting.

Since Mars and Saturn each indicate a wife, and since they each play different roles in this section, I?m tempted to separate them somewhat: although they all characterize MJ?s sexuality, the Saturnian wife is older, it is a publicized marriage, it is less sexual and more gloomy; the Martial marriage is the one that is the more unusual, with sexual irregularities. Mars in the 12th, the wife is kept more hidden [which is true]?

6. Predicting the Marriages.

Profection of the ASC:
To the 7th: ages 18, 30, 42, 54.
To the house where the domicile ruler of the 7th is: 28, 40, 52
To another sign ruled by the domicile ruler of the 7th (i.e., Pisces): 34, 46, 58

Profection of the 7th:
To the house containing its domicile ruler: 34, 46, 58
To another sign ruled by its domicile ruler (i.e., Pisces): 28, 40, 52

(Omitting solar returns due to lack of information; but the degree of the natal 7th in the ASC of a solar return is an argument for marriage that year.)

Primary direction of the Moon to the Marriage Almuten (Jupiter): Oct 1999.

Firdaria:
Period of the Lords of the 1st and 7th (Mercury-Jupiter): Jul 85 ? Mar 87

None of these dates/ages match. But in my (limited) experience, the profections will often show the age at which the future spouses met or became seriously involved, as opposed to the actual ceremony. I would be grateful if anyone knew when he actually met/got involved with each of his wives. Plus, since the firdaria period (ages 27-28] overlaps with some of the profection dates, perhaps his 1988 autobiography might talk about a romance taking place at that time?


Summary:
The native does marry. He marries at least twice, though not necessarily in this order:

1. A Saturnian wife who is difficult, hardworking and inflexible.
2. A Martial wife who is argumentative and difficult

The divorce of the first wife is at his initiative, on account of suspicions or adultery. It is much gossiped about.

He should expect to find his wives from the following areas: professional activity, perhaps with or through someone of authority and status; and on account of his entertainments and pleasures (i.e., his philanthropy, travel, etc.). He might meet one wife through her own friends.

[Note: He married Presley first, during a profection of the 10th to itself, the Lord of the 10th being Saturn. So the theme for that year was a professional partnership. He later divorced her. His second wife, Rowe, used to be his nurse, and is secluded: Mars is the Lord of the 6th and in the 12th.]

The native will have only middling marital bliss, his marriages being characterized by burdens and difficulties (including being a burden on his personal happiness), even though they will be of benefit to him. At least one of the wives is a disagreeable and inappropriate woman. The marriages will afflict his finances and possibly his reputation and image. Still, the marriages are praised.

The wives? social status and suitability is middling; since the native has indications of fame and wealth, they are likely to be of lower status.

Sexual indications are mixed, with signs both of disinclination to sex and an unusual (perhaps unusually active) libido. I?m inclined towards the ?inactive? libido, since while Mars is in detriment he is also cadent and so very weak. So the native?s sex life with the wives has some sort of dysfunction and irregularity ? it is not consistent or highly pleasant.

Prediction is difficult, since I lack important information about when he met or got seriously involved with his future wives (which in my experience is often shown by profection instead of the actual date of the marriage). If Presley was just a business arrangement, then there is another wife out there, the relationship perhaps taking place during the firdar period of Jul 1985 ? Mar 1987 (Ages 27-28], which is also supported by profections? His 1988 biography might say something about that.

Note: with the current scandal, there might be interest in knowing about any sex with boys. The ancient/medieval authors did give rules for this, but some are unclear and in any event none of them apply to this nativity. (The main concern for them seemed to be whether the husband would shirk his marital and reproductive duties in favor of fun with young men ? I?m not sure how that would apply today. An interesting book on this topic in Renaissance Florence is by Michael Rocke). So, that seems to be an open question as far as I can tell.

40
Michael Jackson Children Delineation
This is also an interesting technique, because it treats the 5th house last, favoring the 1st, 10th, 11th and 7th. The fact that the other houses are looked to first, suggests that children in general add to the strength and lastingness of the native?s life, and hold hopes that his/her name will continue ? hence those houses are looked to first. It gives me an idea why children are associated with the 5th. My hypothesis is that they are in the 5th by derived houses: by being 2nd from the 4th, they are the helpers/allies/assets of the household. Deb, what do you think of this?

Part of Children (by night, distance from Sat to Jup, project from ASC): 23 Aries 39

The Significator of Children (an almuten of certain house cusps and planets) is Jupiter.

Houses, Signs, Planets
1st house: Gemini, barren.
11th house: Pisces, very fruitful.
10th house: Aquarius, rather fruitful. Moon in 10th in Pisces, afflicted by Saturn. Grants children.
7th house: Sagittarius, rather fruitful. Saturn in 7th ? denies children.
5th house: Virgo, barren. But Jupiter is in Libra (rather fruitful), intercepted. Grants children.

Most of the signs are very or rather fruitful, and two givers of children are present (albeit one afflicted). The native will have at least one child, probably more because of Jupiter.

But the majority of planets are on masculine signs, with two barren ? an argument that at least one child will shrink from social contacts or perhaps die young.

Part of Children is in the 11th, conjunct Cauda (not sure if this is an affliction in a children delineation), trine Saturn and opposition Jupiter ? in the 11th, the native has a few children, and with goodness and joy.

Jupiter generally testifies that there are many children (culturally speaking).

Jupiter?s triplicity Lords: Mercury (angular), Saturn (angular), himself (succeedent): many children.

Lord of the 5th applying to the Lord of the 6th: the children are the native?s servants.

Ruler of the ASC sextile the Almuten of Children, and the Ruler of the ASC trine the Part of Children, the native and the children have a good relationship.

So the native has several children, a middling to high amount for his culture, and they serve him. He and they have a good relationship, they bring goodness and joy. There is an argument that at least one will shrink from social contacts or be sickly (but signs of serious affliction aren?t present).

When native has children:
Triplicity lords of Jupiter: all occidental, he has children after his youth is over.

Profection of ASC to 5th: 28, 40, 52.
Profection of ASC to house with Lord of 5th: 27, 39, 51. By whole sign: 26, 38, 50

Summary:
So the native has several children, a middling to high amount for his culture, after his youth is over (38-40, 50-52), and they serve him. He and they have a good relationship, they bring goodness and joy. There is an argument that at least one will shrink from social contacts or be sickly (but signs of serious affliction aren?t present).

Note: He had children at age 38, 39 (not sure when his 3rd child was born).

41
Hi Everyone,

This is a notice that I have revamped and corrected my postings on MJ in the form of an article on my website (www.bendykes.com/articles.htm). If you are interested, you can read the updated version there, complete with his firdaria, profections, solar return, and full moons for the upcoming year. I also corrected an error in some of the primary directions and got even better results predicting his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley and some financial/fame events. Enjoy!

Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

42
Hello Ben,
I noticed above you hinted at a possible spirituality delineation for MJ, though i have not seen it in your article on your site. did I miss it?
I am currently studying Medieval Techniques as laid out by Zoller and find your discription of application interesting.
thanks

43
court postponed for MJ today due to be admitted to the hospital with Flu.
just thought you'd like an update since that is local news for me.
2/15/2005
:sg

Granny

44
I was wondering when this thread would be resurrected again.! Given how topical Michael Jackson's trial is. I understand a jury has been empanelled; or at least, the process is well underway.

Just looking at the transits, Uranus is opposing Jackson's 4th House Sun from the 10th House (and over the next few months). And Neptune will be hovering over the MC soon...neither of these aspects looks very promising for him.

Uranus opposing Sun can indicate sudden shocks and reversals. It also has a habit of "bringing things to light"....and here we have it stirring up those 4th House planets - Jackson's home, family life, his past, his private life, his secrets. Hmmm....interesting!!

(Just read that the mother of Jackson's children is going to testify for the prosecution...and it is possible she might reveal the "truth" about the paternity of those children in the course of her testimony...more 4th House issues being stirred up!)
Last edited by kurgal on Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

45
Oh and I should add, as Neptune moves close to the MC, it of course opposes his natal Venus on the IC. Venus rules his 12th House. So some secrets (12th house) about his private relationships at home (venus on IC/4th house cusp) are highlighted.

46
Opening Arguements are scheduled for Monday Morning, so that would be 28 feb 2005, court rarely convenes before 9 am, would opening arguements be the best chart for a court case chart? it seems to me it sets the tone? (actual site of Court case is Santa Maria, Ca) which is 34N57 by 120W26

if it does start at 9am there is Saturn on the 4th cusp, moon on the 7th cusp, and Mars on the 10th cusp... Taurus Rising, Venus in the 11th trine moon almost exactly, If MJ is the 7th, then Mars on 10th certainly makes sense, opposing Saturn isn't pretty, square Jupiter, and will perfect the opposition with Saturn March 7th/8th. I do wonder at how long the trial will last.

Granny Skot

47
I think you're right to use opening arguments as the "beginning" of the case. I would cast a chart for the time at which the trial actually commences (I can't really think of an alternative to that anyway).

Sounds like Michael Jackson is in for some stiff and implacable opposition, if the position and condition of his significator is anything to go by!

P.S. Granny, is that early or late Taurus rising? Might need some leeway with that ascendant if things are running late....

48
I get 4 tau 50 as the asc at 9:00 am, I'd suspect the court starts right about 9 the first day. it will be interesting to see if any news comes out today or not...

That Saturn exactly Conj the IC bodes to be quite loud in the case, I should think? Who are represented by the 10th and 11th house in a court case? the judge? maybe? And mars in this case is absolutely the 7th house indicator, Aries is Buried in the 12th house.

Granny