3
this reminds me of the story of using the wrong tool for the job. don't use a saw if you want to nail something down. try a hammer instead..

any conjunction between 2 planets regardless whether it is in 2 different signs or houses is still going to have a significant impact based on the fact the planets are in a conjunction.. so, first things first - a conjunction is still a conjunction regardless of whether a person puts one of the planets in 1 house and the other in another.. a conjunction that involves 2 different signs - same deal.. consider the nature of the 2 planets first. mercury/jupiter conjunction -'confident thought process, without any other considerations from the chart. jupiter also trine the moon in the fire element - even more so..

i suppose this is the 'art' part to astrology that can drive some beginners crazy..

4
i was thinking about this a bit more this morning and realized that whole sign houses are coming out of hellenistic astrological practice.. the idea of 2 planets being in the same sign being 'conjunct' is another hellenistic idea as i understand it, and different from the idea of 2 planets being conjunct based on a particular orb which could include being across 2 signs.. this distinction would be another important consideration for someone wanting to practice an astrology close to the original 'hellenistic' idea based on my understanding of it.

5
I do not think that using WS invalidates using the orb doctrine.

Furthermore, not every user of WS has a deep interest in the practice of an astrology closer to helenistic sources. Some just find WS more reasonable.

I, for one, respect the arabic contribution, so much so, that my work resembles it a lot more, although I only use divisions to convey planetary strength, not meaning of rulers (that job I leave to celestial houses, as opposed to the mundane ones).
Last edited by PFN on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Paulo Felipe Noronha

Re: Why im not convinced by WSH

6
damon wrote:hi
Nigel Farage has Jupiter at 27 aries conjunct Mercury at 2 taurus. He is known for speaking his mind.
Yet in WSH they would be in different houses.Ive seen a few case like this which makes me cast doubts about wsh systm

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Farage,_Nigel
I don't know this fellow but taking what you just told me: He is known for speaking his mind. The out-of-sign conjunction you appear to have your eye on while considering WSH may not be the critical link you seek.

This chart shows the 3rd house is Scorpio. And Mars is in Aries. The Domicile Lord is exalted.

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/noblehorsepr.pdf

I don't pretend to understand this complicated system of rulerships, but presumably the 3rd house is well ruled if he speaks well. The example goes on to suggest Mars in Aries can't "see" Scorpio because they are not in aspect, so I don't know. It seems to be asking a lot to suggest that a scorpio ruled house will never be "seen" if Mars is in Aries...

7
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf

what about hitlers chart? According to most accounts, he was born around 6:30 pm, however I have read here that according to Wilhelm Wulff, hitler could have been born as early as 6:02 pm.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff2.html

However both the 6:30 chart and the 6:02 chart give hitler a libra ascendant, which in a whole sign system pushes a placidus 3rd house moon and jupiter firmly into the fourth house, while pushing hitlers placidus 10th house saturn into the 11th house. Neither of which are very descriptive of hitlers life. The only chart that makes sense for hitler using WSH is using a birthtime around 6:47 pm. IMO I think it is more plausible that hitler was born around 6:47 pm and his commonly accepted birthtime of 6:30 pm is wrong as opposed to the possibility the WSH is ineffective or wrong. However wulff own personal account of being hitlers personal astrologer is quite convincing in its own right which does lead credence to the libra ascendant chart being the correct one. In any case I really do think that hitlers chart is a good one to use for trying to determine whether or not WSH or placidus is the actual correct one to use.[/url]

8
I'm having difficulties here with terms like "the correct house system."

The picture is far too complex to be remanded to an almost impossible search for "the one and only" correct system.

The Greeks began with whole sign houses, yet also used what we now call Porphyry houses for specific purposes. The Hindus adopted whole sign houses and have never used anything else, even until the present day. The earliest Arabs appear to have used whole sign houses, but as the Middle Ages progressed, they switched to a house system called Alcabitius (al-Qabisi), which was also known to medieval astrologers like Bonatti. By the time we get to Lilly, the preferred system is Regiomontanus. Later, Placidus was developed, and in the 20th century we saw the rise of a plethora of house systems, from Rudhyar's Campanus (now seldom used) to Uranian meridian houses, to the popular Koch (which is an updated version of... Alcabitius!).

With all this incredible diversity. how is it even possible to hypothesize that only one single system can be correct and all the others must be wrong?

9
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 217AAlKIqU

"Been There" provides some wisdom
Think about it ... people tend to round times, including birth times, off to the nearest hour as their first choice. The round it off to the nearest half-hour only as a second choice.
So it Hitler's birthtime is given as 6:30, it is extremely UNlikely that he was born at/around 7:00.
There is no astrological justification to rectify a birthchart in this manner, and this is very poor astrological practice.
This person seems more concerned about "being right" than it being correct.

As for Hitler's chart, the accepted 6:30 PM time shows Libra rising. Yes, people who knew him found him very charming
I have few doubts that Libra rising is correct. But that's just one more opinion on top of so many...

transit Pluto conjunct his MC in 1939 is quite convincing

also, it seems suspiciously probable "someone" told him some astrology. Perhaps that his primary direct Mars would conjunct his Part of Fortune. If so they were using 6:30. Who knows what was told him if they had.

Do astrologers reincarnate as astrologers again? If so, some of us were there... he wasn't very nice to astrologers.

I don't speak or write german but I reading some translated: german word, english, german word, english. I got to a point where I needed to move the page, the last word in german. I spaced out doodling... there's little doubt some part of me knew what that word was after I moved the the page considering my doodle.

10
interesting logic regarding the 6:30/7:00 pm time difference. Still, if we assume that hitler was indeed born at 6:30 (or any time below 6:47 pm) then that would make hitler a libra ascendant and would IMO greatly discredit the WSH system since hitlers libra WSH chart is not at all descriptive of his life.

11
so can anyone shed light on this? I'm still conflicted over hitlers chart and the proper interpretation of it and which house system should be used. In a nutshell, IF hitlers birthtime is correct, then it seem to make a pretty strong case against WSH, however if hitlers birthtime as we know it is wrong and he was born later then it makes an excellent case for the WSH. Or perhaps hitlers birthtime is correct and both placidus and WSH can be used together in some odd way. I'm not really sure, so I was hoping some of the heavyweights on this board could weigh in on the issue.

Astrological tools and calibrations

12
Good morning,

'Rectification' of event times, in particular of human birth times like that of the historic German Chancellor Adolf Hitler, depends on the astrologer's assumptions concerning correspondences of terrestrial events to celestial phenomena, a system of topical places being one such assumption.

As, measured on the ecliptic, each equal sign consists of 30 degrees, some if not many have a tendency to consider whole sign topical houses as 'static' or even 'deterministic'. However, measured in primary daily motion of civil time, depending on latitude and season, equal signs rise with greatly differing velocities and accelerations / decelerations, sometimes not rising or not setting at all in polar regions.

As with most things astrological, comparatively much speculation but little systematic verification can be found concerning systems of topical places and the assignments of topics to them.

Best regards,

lihin
Non esse nihil non est.