The twins problem

1
Hi,

I am open-mindedly sceptical regarding astrology. I have tried it and worked with it for a few years now and it has been quite profound and useful so I'm not trying to knock astrology here. However I am still trying to gain a reasonable philosophical understanding. One simple question above all others makes me wonder about what astrology is and how it works. Why can twins have such different lives?

I have read various arguments around this topic but none of them seem to be satisfying. It certainly seems to put the wind up the hardcore traditional astrologers who think that there is no free-will as such and you can essentially write the biography of a person by knowing their birth date.

I was wondering what people think about this. Have any serious studies been done on time twins, particular those whose ascendants are very close together? If so, what were the findings?

I understand that often twins are born far enough apart in time that they are born under different ascending signs in which case there is a perfectly rational argument for a markedly different predictive outcome. I also understand that certain techniques such as primary directions are very sensitive to small changes in the ascendant. I am thinking in particular about the case where the children are born minutes apart and within the same sign. This would mean that there could be as little as one degree's difference in ascendant positions. If I were to pick up any astrology text-book, be it traditional or modern, I would be making the same predictions for both parties but maybe saying (using directions) that certain important life events may happen slightly later or earlier for each party.

I think the problem manifests particularly when it comes to the solid material predictors such as length-of-life, bodily form, number of children. If these predictors are correct then you would have to admit that time twins should at least be similar in these regards. You could argue it away and say that there are minute sign divisions within each degree which make a difference but then nobody ever actually appears to use these for prediction which kind of nullifies that argument for me. Also, if you try to argue that these minute divisions can make such important differences as one person being tall and thin and his time twin being short and fat then they really should be used throughout astrology.

The alternative is to say that the planets correlate with different aspects of each twin, and you can only realise this through knowing the twin and comparing them with their chart. By comparing the chart to the life of each twin you can see for instance what Mars is doing for that person. It may be different things for each person. This seems more reasonable to me but it then nullifies the traditional viewpoint somewhat - or does it?

What do people think. I'm particularly interested in people who have actually studied this deeply as I'm sure everybody has an opinion but few have actually tested it.

Thanks,

Martin
Last edited by mrtinps on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3
I haven't read the thread that james mentions so perhaps what I tell has already been covered, but...

One of the things that still seem lost to most modern/psychological astrologers, is the use of the terms or bounds. Given enough time between the twins' births (and a rising sign that moves fast enough), their ascendants can have a different bound-ruler which might clarify their differences in life-track.
Another possibility is that - because of a change of orb for a planet aspecting the ascendants, one twin *may* have another "significator of manners", than the other one. The "SoM" shows how the native's temperament is expressed (and what kind of reactions is induced thereby). This could also give clear difference between the 2 lives.

In a modern astrological context: yrs ago (about 20) I had identical twins taking my course then, together with some 8 other pupils. None of us could tell them apart: their faces, expressions, intonations, body-languages were sooo identical they could fool us any time. But they had a very interesting story to tell: here is how they were very different:
the first born would always take initiatives (choosing a hobby, a study-direction, job-interest, wht have you). The 2nd born would always "tune in" (or should I say "chime in", and often, "take over"! At some point in their lives, they found it healthier to split and go and live even in different cities, so as not to repeat this pattern ad infinitum (which reallly had become cumbersome for the 1st born) First born was doing most of the work, while 2nd born took most of the "profit" or advantages therefrom.
Now in the 2nd yr of the course I taught then, we studied the Logarithmic Time Scale (by Tad Mann). One of the key-concepts (that I have always seen working/confirmed in my 30+ yrs of practice) is that the birth-circumstances, the 1st experiences of life as a separate biological unity, determine ones outlook on life, ones expectations and (therewith connected) behaviour. This is ofcourse shown in the chart by the ascendant and its configurations (position of L1, aspects to the asc.).
Now, invisible in these chaps' charts (except a different degree rising reflecting the difference in time of birth), was the following that they shared with the class: parents were unaware of going to get twins. So when the 1st was born and being taken care off, all started to panick when another unit (lol) made his appearance into the thin air of our existence; as the 1st born did not need any special attention or care, *all* activity geared back toward the mother, and ofcourse the 2nd baby being born. The 1st was, as it were, "left behind". When they told this story in class, having been studying and practicing already a bit of the LTS of Tad Mann, a few things started to dawn upon them. They just seemed to repeat over and over again this pattern of the 1st one "making the way", doing the "preparations", taking initiative, and then abandoning/loosing interest or: getting put aside in some way, and then the younger one taking over...
Even understanding this pattern, it couldn't stop them from acting it out again and again and that's why - a few yrs later - we heard they had split and moved over to very different locations (different cities) to go and live their own life.

Sorry for the length of this reply, but I still think it is one wonderfull story and example!

(and I am very sorry I cannot share their birthdata due to privacy-reasons).
Herman

http://www.hervaro.be

5
by time twins you mean same place (hospital, house whatever) same time same day?

I'm attempting to be precise because I have to say I've found that when it comes to babies being born, you have clusters and one offs. in other words a maternity ward will be empty for days, then someone comes in and they start calling nurses, because when one comes, they generally are the start of a grouping of them. it is actually NOT usual to have time twins. even identical twins have differences in time of birth, some closer than others. I know a pair who's birth times are HOURS apart because of complications. first one delivered normally second one they had to try to turn because he was side ways. the closest I've seen them is allegedly 4 minutes, when it comes to birth times I get a wee bit skeptical sometimes. generally a fast canal time is 8 minutes, though I suppose it could have been a C section, which would be faster. Place also makes a big difference in a chart.

Granny

PS beware the one offs, they are usually well worth a chart glance or three.