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Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections Reply with quote

https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/SudarshanChakraDasaANewApproachColor.pdf

something for others into all this to consider... thanks aj - for raising my awareness of this technique in use in indian astrology...
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/SudarshanChakraDasaANewApproachColor.pdf

something for others into all this to consider... thanks aj - for raising my awareness of this technique in use in indian astrology...

Where or how would you like to steer this topic James?
Start compiling a delineation/research sharing thread or more of a comparison to other similar western techniques?
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aj,

i was fascinated by the similarities here between sudarshan chakra dasa and profections... i want to know the differences between the 2 systems - if there are any - and i would be happy to participate in some research of this technique using an example chart of anyone's choosing..

when did maharishi parashara write his book - bphs? it seems to me that either he was familiar with hellenistic astrology, or hellenistic astrology was familiar with his ideas.. i seem to recal bphs has a big question mark around it's origins.. i know that discoveries or new ideas can pop up in a few different peoples heads ( or cultures) at the same time, so it is possible these ideas were operating independent of one another with both cultures unfamiliar that each was doing something very similar...

i have some familiarity with profections since being introduced to the idea in the past 5 years.. not a lot, but some!
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AJ



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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi aj,

i was fascinated by the similarities here between sudarshan chakra dasa and profections... i want to know the differences between the 2 systems - if there are any - and i would be happy to participate in some research of this technique using an example chart of anyone's choosing..

when did maharishi parashara write his book - bphs? it seems to me that either he was familiar with hellenistic astrology, or hellenistic astrology was familiar with his ideas.. i seem to recal bphs has a big question mark around it's origins.. i know that discoveries or new ideas can pop up in a few different peoples heads ( or cultures) at the same time, so it is possible these ideas were operating independent of one another with both cultures unfamiliar that each was doing something very similar...

i have some familiarity with profections since being introduced to the idea in the past 5 years.. not a lot, but some!

There is a lot of controversy on the dates of BPHS. The most common view is the first half or so has often been dated to the 7-8th century CE, the latter half to the late 8th century, early 9th. There have been doubts on major parts of the modern text we have available. Personally, I suspect the text was entirely rewritten sometime in the 19th century from disparate MSS and material added such as the Jaimini elements of BPHS. There does seem to have been an original work by Parashara and the best guess are the dates given above. Mark sometime back linked to a great article on this by Shyamasundara Dasa that can tell you better than me. Well worth the read if you have time.
https://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/resources/articles/bphs.html

The dates of BPHS are just before the Islamic invasions so some of the material at least predates the Arabs, not to say there wasn't cross fertilization.
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AJ



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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: I'm going to find my Santhanam edition of BPHS and transcribe the chapter on Sudarshan Chakra. Might take me a few days but I think it will help move the study on if we have a structure of the method to refer too at least in so far what BPHS as we now have it has to say on the subject.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

that would be most generous.. i also have a chart that we could use that i have some details on as a part of the experiment - a chart i have never studied in this context..

cheers james

on a related note - in examining this link for the details on how to do the calculations for sudarshan chakra dasa - MD (Mahadasa) is the very same as the calculations solar fire generates for profections.. AD (AD is of one month i.e. each house gets one month AD) is more tricky and i am presently trying to figure out the calculation i have to enter for user directions on this one... i might not be able to do it with the software i have..

https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/SudarshanChakraDasaANewApproachColor.pdf

this is the same link as in my first post on this thread..
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AJ



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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
on a related note - in examining this link for the details on how to do the calculations for sudarshan chakra dasa - MD (Mahadasa) is the very same as the calculations solar fire generates for profections.. AD (AD is of one month i.e. each house gets one month AD) is more tricky and i am presently trying to figure out the calculation i have to enter for user directions on this one... i might not be able to do it with the software i have..
https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/SudarshanChakraDasaANewApproachColor.pdf
this is the same link as in my first post on this thread..

So, are you trying to duplicate the calculations in the link you provided?
The traditional calculation in BPHS is simply one month for each sub period in the main house periods. Much simpler and maybe we should start with that. My own software uses the traditional method.
I do have software that will do profections, easy enough to write over the signs with the house numbers.


Last edited by AJ on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aj,

i am just trying to understand it properly... as it is explained - the MD is the same as western trad profections.. the AD - 12 months with each one different is what i am presently uncertain about... the best way for me to understand it would be to have the software that generates this.. quote from pdf in my last link - " In each house's mahadasa, there are 12 antardasa [AD] of one month each and the AD starts from the mahadasa house"

it sounds like one gets the AD off the MD which is different each year.. i was wondering about that...

so the bphs is one month for each sub period in the main house periods.. can you give an example of how this works?? i am pretty sure this is the same as standard profections.. thanks..
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AJ



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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

so the bphs is one month for each sub period in the main house periods.. can you give an example of how this works?? i am pretty sure this is the same as standard profections.. thanks..

James: If you have chart in mind to use go ahead and provide/post the birth data and let's use that from the "get go" and calculate the SC dasha as an exercise.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aj,

i had to get the okay from my friend who i have known for about 4-5 years.. i know him fairly well and we are pretty close... he is an open book..

so, i will be able to give information from him on different years and dates to the best of his memory... i can give details on him right now, but i am not sure how much i should offer right away... the experiment will be different for me then for others given the fact i know him personally... he is from a family of 5 kids, with him being the youngest.. he mom was jewish and his dad scottish - both fairly new arrivals to canada.. they would have been born in the early 20's or late teens of the 20th century.. his dad fought as a major in the 2nd world war... it was a major, some very high position... after the war they moved to vancouver and both of them started up businesses - her - a womens clothing shop and him - a pharmacy, as he was a pharmacist... so that is a beginning point for an overview on some of his family..

the time looks rounded off...the details are vancouver november 3rd 1953, 11:30 am..i apologize for this, but i think it is fairly close...

i think it is important to define what the malefics are to this chart.. i think the moon is classified as a malefic given it's rulership of the 8th and the fact it is a last phase waning moon..

mercury is about 2 hours before exact stationary retrograde movement..



the navamsha.. venus is in virgo in both charts - vargottam.. mercury and moon improve in the D9.. mars not... perhaps if you want, i can look at a few of the other divisional charts to formulate a better perspective...

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AJ



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James: Thanks for providing a chart. I think it will do nicely.
I have most of chapter 74 of BPHS into text, just have to clean it up some more and I want to go through it and put a few notes in. It's a bit long to post. I will provide a PDF or something via email when done. I also hope to add notes to it as we go along too. If anyone is interested they can PM me their email and I will send them one as well. I will post the offer again when it is ready.

To get things going here is the part of chapter 74 that instructs on how to calculate the SC dasha.

Notes by me are in square brackets [i.e notes]
Verses 21-23 describe the calculation of the SC dasha:
(21-23) The sage said. O Brahmin! Now I will tell you about the effects, produced every year and every month by the twelve Bhavas in their Dasas and Antardashas, according to Sudarshana Chakra. Under this system every one of the twelve Bhavas, beginning from the 1st, is allotted a Dasa period of one year. Thus every year in 12 years a Bhava becomes Lagna of the year and the remaining become 2nd, 3rd and so on. Every year every Bhava will have Antardasa of one month. By following the method of Lagna of the year here also, there will be a Lagna of the month. The first Antardasa will be of the first Bhava and then will follow for 12 months the Antardasas of the other Bhavas, every Bhava assuming the role of Lagna by turn. Every Bhava gets Pratyantar Dasa of 2½ days and Vidasa [subperiods] of 12½ Ghatikas [1 ghatika is 24 minutes]. The same method is to be adopted for judging the effects of Bhavas in Pratyantar Dashas and Vidasas [subperiods].

For the chart info you provided: Hamish, Vancouver November 3rd, 1953, 11:30 am.

Using solar years of 365.25 but to make it simpler you could use 360 days for a year just a few days off here and there.
The main period is one year for each house starting with house 1, 2nd year house 2 and so on until at the 13th year the cycle repeats. This is also called above in the text the 'Lagna of the Year' and requires very careful reading here in the text not to mess up the order of the dasha/antardasha.
Each main period has a sub-period (antardasha) of 30 days starting with the what Parashara calls the 'Lagna of the Year,' this is the tricky part. In other words the first sub-period (antardasha) is the same as the Main (yearly) period (house) and then seriatim. This follows suit for the pratyantar dasa too. See the calculated dasha below. This is missed by a lot of Pundits. Some antardasha house numbers are skipped each year, this is what keeps it from being the same every 12 years.

Each sub-period (antardasha) of 30 days has a sub-sub period (pratyantar dasa) of 2.5 days. This can be subdivided even finer but I'm going to stop here.

I calculated some of the SC dasha for Hamish here but only for a short bit and only two levels but I think you will get the idea as it's pretty simple to calculate it according to the BPHS text just note that the first antardasha is the same as the Main dasha (house number) for that year.
Main sub-period
11/3/1953 house 1 1
12/03 house 2
01/03 house 3
02/02 house 4
03/05 house 5
04/04 house 6
05/05 house 7
06/04 house 8
07/05 house 9
08/04 house 10
09/03 house 11
10/04 house 12
11/3/1954 house 2 2
12/04 house 3
and so on....


Last edited by AJ on Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

yes, as you have outlined it is how i understand it too..

here is what the profections look like for nov 3rd 1954 -

now the dasa lord is saturn... and on approx dec 3rd 1954 - the sub dasa lord would also be saturn - ruler of aquarius.. jan 3rd 1955 would switch to pisces - jupiter sub lord... that is how i understand it.. my software will not allow for the 12 months within the yearly profection, but i understand how it is arrived it.. thanks!



here is what the biwheel looks like what the rasi on the inside...

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AJ



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks aj,
yes, as you have outlined it is how i understand it too..
here is what the profections look like for nov 3rd 1954 -
now the dasa lord is saturn... and on approx dec 3rd 1954 - the sub dasa lord would also be saturn - ruler of aquarius.. jan 3rd 1955 would switch to pisces - jupiter sub lord... that is how i understand it.. my software will not allow for the 12 months within the yearly profection, but i understand how it is arrived it.. thanks!

James: Yes that is correct. It is identical to SC dasha other than being sign vs house.
In BPHS for Sudarshan Chakra the emphasis is always on whether the dasha house gets advanced or harmed but easy enough to track the houses using western sign profections.
Chapter 74 states the use of the natural states of the planets with adjustments to their degree of malevolence and/or benefit depending on placement, sign, and vargas etc. Due to the combined charts it makes sense to use the fundamental nature of the planets rather than getting too complicated with functional rulerships.
But I have to catch myself here, I think maybe I am on a different wavelength than you, your interest is in the similarity between the two predictive systems, mine keeps moving towards investigating Sudarshan Chakra as a system for delineation/prediction. It's your topic and it occurred to me that this might not be your intent but rather in the use of profections.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:

James: Yes that is correct. It is identical to SC dasha other than being sign vs house.
In BPHS for Sudarshan Chakra the emphasis is always on whether the dasha house gets advanced or harmed but easy enough to track the houses using western sign profections.
Chapter 74 states the use of the natural states of the planets with adjustments to their degree of malevolence and/or benefit depending on placement, sign, and vargas etc. Due to the combined charts it makes sense to use the fundamental nature of the planets rather than getting too complicated with functional rulerships.
But I have to catch myself here, I think maybe I am on a different wavelength than you, your interest is in the similarity between the two predictive systems, mine keeps moving towards investigating Sudarshan Chakra as a system for delineation/prediction. It's your topic and it occurred to me that this might not be your intent but rather in the use of profections.


hi aj - thanks for your comments and participation!

1) let me try to understand this better... sign verses house - what are whole sign houses? aren't they essentially the sign is the house and the planet ruling the sign is ruling the house? that is the way i am treating it... the chart might throw you off, but that is how i view signs and houses here, so i am curious if i am missing anything in your position?

2) so, the quality of the planet that rules the sign-house is critical to the interpretation, correct? that is how i am wanting to proceed forward here - with this basic concept..i would like to take some events in hamish's life to see if it holds true.. so, first thing we have to do is to figure out which sign-houses are considered malefic and which planets are considered malefic... my read on this is 3rd, 6th, 8th and 12th houses are considered more malefic in western astrology.. maybe not the 3rd so much, but 6/8/12 definitely.. the planets ruling 3/6/8/12 are saturn, venus, moon and mars... mars rules 5th which is considered positive to sag rising.. so, maybe only venus, moon and saturn are malefic here? jupiter is exalted in the 8th - does this change it? moon is very waning which is considered malefic.. overall - moon seems malefic to me...

bottom line - we need to figure out what would be malefic and benefic... in terms of house position mercury seems malefic to me... let me know what you think of all this..

3) i think we can do both here - i can learn more about sudarshan chakra and see any parallels that might exist between this and the western system of profections and you can continue to investigate this system as a stand alone system too... it is a topic i started, but i am at a serious loss without your involvement here! thanks...

on a related note - i will be out of reach from thursday til monday coming up... if i don't respond quickly - that is why!
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AJ



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

1) let me try to understand this better... sign verses house - what are whole sign houses? aren't they essentially the sign is the house and the planet ruling the sign is ruling the house? that is the way i am treating it... the chart might throw you off, but that is how i view signs and houses here, so i am curious if i am missing anything in your position?

You have it "crystal clear" not missing anything on my position. below are the profections vs the SC dasha; no difference, house and sign in this instance are interchangable.
Hamish's Profections Hamish's SC Dasha
11/03/1953 Sagittarius | 11/03/1953 1
11/03/1954 Capricorn | 11/03/1954 2
11/04/1955 Aquarius | 11/04/1955 3
11/03/1956 Pisces | 11/03/1956 4
11/03/1957 Aries | 11/03/1957 5
11/03/1958 Taurus | 11/03/1958 6
11/04/1959 Gemini | 11/04/1959 7
11/03/1960 Cancer | 11/03/1960 8
11/03/1961 Leo | 11/03/1961 9
11/03/1962 Virgo | 11/03/1962 10
11/04/1963 Libra | 11/04/1963 11
11/03/1964 Scorpio | 11/03/1964 12

As far as benefic and malefic I see that too as the primary factor to settle as far as delineation is concerned. That is why I wanted us to be looking at chapter 74 of BPHS as it gives some brief guidelines for that. So rather than delve into the rest of your comment right now let's comb through chapter 74 and compile its guidelines for interpretation and then we can use that as a sounding board to verify it, find redundancies, adapt and add new findings etc. We can use chapter 74 as a foundation to help us create a mini working notebook to using and delineating Sudarshan Chakra.
I will be sending you a copy via email in a little while.
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